Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

smestarz

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When a serving COAS says "I cannot fight a war without Rafale" - a lot of people will ask questions. People in IAF itself are asking questions - what is it that capability of IAF is seriously jeopardized without Rafale?

There are many intelligent people besides COAS, at least that you will agree.

The GOI is still trying to negotiate but this kind of pressure tactics only BENEFITS THE VENDOR, not India or IAF.
When a soldier says that he cannot fight with the weapons given to him, then its best we ask the soldier to leave the service, military service is not a compulsion, and if they are not happy with the weapons their country can give them they should ask for an honourable discharge.
What is wrong with this?
 

smestarz

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They will arm all the weapons based on intelligence provided by any source.
Look if a scenario arises where the intelligence is saying that there are some air defence weapons,Some fighter jets and maybe something more.Now if you use su-30mki in this scenario there will be 2 less hardpoints.If they use rafale with similar capabilities than they can use the extra 2 hardpoints for intelligence gathering, or extra weapons when there is less intelligence available.
Well assume there is an hardened target which a Brahmos A can take down, you cannot use Rafale there, because Rafale cannot use it, but then if you have to use Rafale you have to import SCALP, thus Rafale will come with its own set of weapons which we have to import again.
Further the present Range of the A2A missiles used by Su-30 MKI outrange the missiles used by Rafale. So Su-30 MKI gets first shoot capability. which is always advantageous in air combat. the ability to lock on and fire at the enemy before they can.

Anyway, the point is that, one has to arm the plane on ground, there is no Aerial rearming yes? Thus the planes will be armed on ground based on the mission parameters and intelligence. Assume there are 16 targets and Rafale has 14 pylons, remember the outer pylons cannot carry A2G weapons hence there will be min 4 A2A weapons. So what does one Rafale do then?
Further considering the cost of Rafale to cost of Su-30 MKI, the cost of Su-30 MKI is rougly 1/3 that of Rafale, hence even if you send two Su-30 MKI it is still low value air assets in air.
Just because Rafale has 14 hard points, the enemy is not going to present 14 targets, there will be times when there are more targets and there will be times when there are no targets. I feel that whatever IAF has 270+ Su-30 MKI is enough to ensure that we can give a good account of ourselves and ensure that the enemy keeps its distance off our borders.
 

smestarz

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Has anybody said so? References please? You forget that two planes were finalized, not one.
Did the tender specify 14 hard-points, or omni-role?
Cant expect much from Rafale fanboys,
The main thing is doctrine, IAF does not develop its air fighting doctrine as much as France has and the moment the French air force shows what they can do, it is like we just discovered fire and these are the reactions.
BTW whatever reasons he gave for purchase of Rafale are lame.

Data fusion is important, but when did IAF realize it? In 2012 ? So you see how laid back our top IAF officers are they do not know what is coming up
 

smestarz

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If you are talking about su-30mki vs f-15 then i can agree with you.
But with rafale there will be tough competition man.Rafales even get killshot in air exercises over F-22 Raptors.Well the point is-as the iaf chief said before they can complement each other but they cant replace each other.
These are the same Rafale which were chasing Su-30 MKI during red flag excercise trying to snoop on our avionics. Surely the french do not know much about the avionics of Su-30 MKI, if the French were confident of Rafale, they would not be doing it.

Excercise is like a practice match it is to hone your skills, one cannot really learn much by winning, when you lose, you learn a lot and without losing your life. So what happens during excercise is not an hard fast rule that it will happen in real conditions.
 

smestarz

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If you have doubts than i have some doubts that you are wrong.
In my opinion they decided to purchase rafale because of its data fusion system,Its hardpoints,Its omnirole platform and many more.
BTW, Rafale was declared L1 based on its cheaper LCC. and not other things, now the situation is there that the MoD doubts the figures of LCC

already there is news that the Pilatus deal was fixed and NAK Browne then IAF Chief gave fake numbers to make Pilatus appear cheap, and he is the same one who gave the figures for Rafale when the Dassault bid was found to be incomplete and some figures were assumed.
In this light, there is serious doubt if Govt will sign Rafale..

Rather I feel that the govt will wait for the ex-IAF chief and now Ambassador in Norway to come back and explain (my view)
I doubt Browne is going to come back
 

smestarz

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I am amazed how much idiot a man can be? You still dont get it and i have doubts you will.
You do not put any credible points, just saying Omni role does not make Rafale a plane to buy.
How do you rate PAKFA ? its 5th Gen, stealth, and can sneak up behind Rafale and hump it all night long... so what does omni role become in that case? Humpty dumpty?
 

smestarz

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Never, How can you say that, during the Start time know one thinks about Brahmos can be fired from Su 30, but now It's happens

Days are counted for Brahmos M

between you know the Size of Su 30 and Rafale
Brahmos A is too big for Rafale, so the only hope is only when Brahmos M is produced.
 

smestarz

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:truestory: I know what I can do ..!! is there any problem Cleaning Toilets

In India, my friend

if I out of my house My cats will trespasses and can hear hens sound more natural thing
Nice, should be Kerala then
 

jaciunite2

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Has anybody said so? References please? You forget that two planes were finalized, not one.
Did the tender specify 14 hard-points, or omni-role?
I am not saying they specify any of the above points.I am just just saying rafale has advantages in this specific area over other contender.
 

smestarz

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It's nothing but a bomber Configuration packing 18 unguided bombs to drop enemy area for Surgical attack..


The role of the Mission exactly

If Su 30 carries a Brahmos it can able to launch only one missile and switch it's primary Air superiority role

wHile Rafale can strike a Specific Target and hover fight against enemy jets again attack a Tank or Building and hover and Fight against enemy Jets, repeat repeat repeat
There is a thing called MULTIPLE EJECTOR RACK, its like magic, you attach it on one pylon and you can carry upto 3 units (depending on size)
Well here you have a swing role Su-30 MKI, was it so difficult?
 

smestarz

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If you are talking about su-30mki vs f-15 then i can agree with you.
But with rafale there will be tough competition man.Rafales even get killshot in air exercises over F-22 Raptors.Well the point is-as the iaf chief said before they can complement each other but they cant replace each other.
The air chief is saying like other funnyguys about weight class that Rafale is in medium weight and Su-30 MKI is heavy, as if India is going to send these planes as boxers for the next Olympics.
Weight is important if its carrier plane, but for land plane weight is not an issue if it has the power plant to handle it.
When the people join service they have all the desire to fight for the country, but the moment they get behind the desk, their views go more towards their retirement fund, after all their fighting days are over.
 

smestarz

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If you have doubts than i have some doubts that you are wrong.
In my opinion they decided to purchase rafale because of its data fusion system,Its hardpoints,Its omnirole platform and many more.
are you aware of Multiple ejector Racks? by using them for Su-30 MKI we have 14 hard points, not so difficult, is it? Now are you going to suggest 16 for Rafale now? since Su-30 MKI can in a way match 14 ..
You can do research abt it if you want
 

jaciunite2

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are you aware of Multiple ejector Racks? by using them for Su-30 MKI we have 14 hard points, not so difficult, is it? Now are you going to suggest 16 for Rafale now? since Su-30 MKI can in a way match 14 ..
You can do research abt it if you want
You go any way the rafale will have 2 more hardpoints in it.Take the truth.
 

jaciunite2

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The air chief is saying like other funnyguys about weight class that Rafale is in medium weight and Su-30 MKI is heavy, as if India is going to send these planes as boxers for the next Olympics.
Weight is important if its carrier plane, but for land plane weight is not an issue if it has the power plant to handle it.
When the people join service they have all the desire to fight for the country, but the moment they get behind the desk, their views go more towards their retirement fund, after all their fighting days are over.
I think you should be our iaf chief.
It will be horrifying for the country if you do.
 

JBH22

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Mig 35 any remote option of this plane getting in the IAF colors
 
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jaciunite2

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You do not put any credible points, just saying Omni role does not make Rafale a plane to buy.
How do you rate PAKFA ? its 5th Gen, stealth, and can sneak up behind Rafale and hump it all night long... so what does omni role become in that case? Humpty dumpty?
The same pak fa which have engine problems, Indians are worried about its stealth technologies,whom engine caught fire,whos radar is unproven that pak-fa?
 

jaciunite2

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These are the same Rafale which were chasing Su-30 MKI during red flag excercise trying to snoop on our avionics. Surely the french do not know much about the avionics of Su-30 MKI, if the French were confident of Rafale, they would not be doing it.

Excercise is like a practice match it is to hone your skills, one cannot really learn much by winning, when you lose, you learn a lot and without losing your life. So what happens during excercise is not an hard fast rule that it will happen in real conditions.
Where did you get this information?
Any References please?
 

jaciunite2

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Cant expect much from Rafale fanboys,
The main thing is doctrine, IAF does not develop its air fighting doctrine as much as France has and the moment the French air force shows what they can do, it is like we just discovered fire and these are the reactions.
BTW whatever reasons he gave for purchase of Rafale are lame.

Data fusion is important, but when did IAF realize it? In 2012 ? So you see how laid back our top IAF officers are they do not know what is coming up
There is time to realize something.
Indians are always lazy in this field.
They realize that they need to replace its mig-21 aircraft its too late.And now they want to purchase it from foreign company.They now realize that 63% of accidents in air force history is because of human error.So i am not surprised to see them realize important things very lately.
 

smestarz

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There is time to realize something.
Indians are always lazy in this field.
They realize that they need to replace its mig-21 aircraft its too late.And now they want to purchase it from foreign company.They now realize that 63% of accidents in air force history is because of human error.So i am not surprised to see them realize important things very lately.
I would not call us lazy, we were indecisive and when we took decisions in the past it was based on lining our pockets.
Lets go with some facts which you might agree.
MiG-21 were flying well till the collapse of USSR and then our Govt and IAF staff did end up buying cheap spares (and pocketing hefty commission) and these cheap spares were useless and that made the plane the flying coffin. Many countries still use MiG-21 and it is well respected. Try Eastern European countries. And because the MiG started to fall out of the sky hence the urgent need for replacements. But it was all due to faulty and cheap spares purchased.

Also one thing you would not know, we were developing a plane way back in mid 70s called HF-73 and it was dumped because then Russia offered upgraded MiG-21 that also had ground attack capability, and due to lack of foresight of our leaders and of course making the IAF happy, we prefered the IMPORTS and not develop our domestic plane. What we ended up doing is we lost the need or intent to produce planes and we were happy being importers.

IAF never had the intention to buy Tejas in the first place. IAF top brass is highly incompetent and does not know much about latest technology being worked on, hence the requirement of tejas came up based on few plane brochures, and then when they read another issue, they wanted different upgrades. When you design a plane, you need specs that are frozen, but if the user comes with changing specs, then the manufacturer has to spend more time to incorporate them or to give up and this is what IAF wanted, a delay means they get to order an imported ITEM (they wanted Mirage 2000) and if HAL gives up then they get to order more.

In my view it is a position in history that India stands, do we do the same mistake we did 40 year ago? If we do, Tejas nos will be limited, the total cost of Tejas program will be expensive to justify and our own development programs will be shelved. One thing you should realize that when a country is close making good products, other powerful countries try to offer them products to ensure the market remains. I think we have achieved that status with Tejas. India fears China, and Chinese have been producing their own J-10 in big numbers. the backbone of PLAAF is not Su-30 MKK please note. The idea behind having big nos of single engine planes is, they are cheaper to produce,fly and maintain. The time taken to maintain them is less because of single engine. The operation cost is less. For example if you fly Rafale and Tejas, the cost of flying Tejas will be less than half maybe 1/3. Thus it becomes more economical to buy, fly and maintain. IF India does buy Rafale then the Air force budget will have to be increased further for adding the cost of flying (Fuel does not come free) thus if the budget is not increased then either we have to fly less sorties, which is not beneficial at all.

I once again stress that IAF top brass is incompetent and not in sync with the ground realities,. I would not be surprised if the pilots are not in sync with the Chief of air staff. IAF lacks the vision to see the future battles and to procure as per their vision of future battles.

China already is getting its 5th Gen plane, what chances do Rafale stand against them? Cannon fodder?
For threat from Pakistan, we are prepared with the fleet of Su-30 MKI and Tejas to support them, but for Chinese threat, nothing that we have can win against them in terms of Tech (5th Gen) or numbers.
 

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