Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

[SajeevJino]

You could have a job as toilet cleaner, its an unskilled job, so you could be OK for you.

I know what I can do ..!! is there any problem Cleaning Toilets

BTW, you are in India or Israel? If you are in India then well you do not know whats happening and you should get out of your house too often, and if you are in israel, still the same advice.
Stick to the topic.. please

In India, my friend

if I out of my house My cats will trespasses and can hear hens sound more natural thing

 

[SajeevJino]

And at present Su-30 MKI is only plane could fire Brahmos A. Rafale cannot and never will. the missile is too big for it

Never, How can you say that, during the Start time know one thinks about Brahmos can be fired from Su 30, but now It's happens

Days are counted for Brahmos M

between you know the Size of Su 30 and Rafale

 

[sgarg]

did i said anything wrong about Su 30 air superiority role,

Yes those Su 30 can carry the KH 31 too for that it can't be a omnirole

It does not matter if it is not "omnirole". Diverse air forces from China, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam etc. cannot be wrong about their choice of Su-30/Su-27 family.

I believe DM Parikkar when he says Su-30 can replace Rafale. He is getting his view from IAF advice ONLY.

 

[SajeevJino]

I believe DM Parikkar when he says Su-30 can replace Rafale. He is getting his view from IAF advice ONLY.

so you can take the DM word backed by IAF, but can not agree what IAF Cheif said about MMRCA

 

[sgarg]

so you can take the DM word backed by IAF, but can not agree what IAF Cheif said about MMRCA

The problem with COAS Raha's comment is that it trashes IAF's own logic behind last two decades of procurement.

Sukhoi cannot replace Rafale: IAF chief

If Rafale was so urgent as COAS says, a simplified tender or a gov-to-gov purchase was the right course when UPA was in power.

Too much water has passed below the bridge now. The tender sits on a number of complications which may never be resolved.

What will IAF do if the deal fails - stop flying??

 

[SajeevJino]

The problem with COAS Raha's comment is that it trashes IAF's own logic behind last two decades of procurement.

Sukhoi cannot replace Rafale: IAF chief

If Rafale was so urgent as COAS says, a simplified tender or a gov-to-gov purchase was the right course when UPA was in power.

Too much water has passed below the bridge now. The tender sits on a number of complications which may never be resolved.

What will IAF do if the deal fails - stop flying??

I know you are more intelligent than Air Cheif Arup Raha

 

[sgarg]

When a serving COAS says "I cannot fight a war without Rafale" - a lot of people will ask questions. People in IAF itself are asking questions - what is it that capability of IAF is seriously jeopardized without Rafale?

There are many intelligent people besides COAS, at least that you will agree.

The GOI is still trying to negotiate but this kind of pressure tactics only BENEFITS THE VENDOR, not India or IAF.

 

[sgarg]

A lot of people on this forum raise the bogey of China threat. However nobody mentions that fact that China produces and exports all kind of weapons. When anybody promotes Indian made weapons, the same military men start having fits.

China's military power is due to progress of its local weapons industry, not due to import of Rafale or some other French fighter.

 

[jaciunite2]

This is what I call Marketing. It has 14 hard points yes, now assume that the planes are based in Mumbai and they have to strike a target in say in Quetta or Rawalpindi, what as per you will they be armed with?
A2A? A2G? A2S ?
Arming a plane is mission specific. they do not randomly go on arming a plane with everything, A2A missiles yes, and A2G misiles for this scenario, they would not be arming it with A2S missile because they feel they might find a naval ship on the way. Thats not how it works. That happens only on brochures or during Aero Expo. Give it a thought, and it might look stupid to find an A2S missile for this mission
One thing at present is that the upgraded Su-30 MKI can fire the available Brahmos A, Rafale cannot do that at all.. And Brahmos A is available

They will arm all the weapons based on intelligence provided by any source.
Look if a scenario arises where the intelligence is saying that there are some air defence weapons,Some fighter jets and maybe something more.Now if you use su-30mki in this scenario there will be 2 less hardpoints.If they use rafale with similar capabilities than they can use the extra 2 hardpoints for intelligence gathering, or extra weapons when there is less intelligence available.

 

[jaciunite2]

This is what I call Marketing. It has 14 hard points yes, now assume that the planes are based in Mumbai and they have to strike a target in say in Quetta or Rawalpindi, what as per you will they be armed with?
A2A? A2G? A2S ?
Arming a plane is mission specific. they do not randomly go on arming a plane with everything, A2A missiles yes, and A2G misiles for this scenario, they would not be arming it with A2S missile because they feel they might find a naval ship on the way. Thats not how it works. That happens only on brochures or during Aero Expo. Give it a thought, and it might look stupid to find an A2S missile for this mission
One thing at present is that the upgraded Su-30 MKI can fire the available Brahmos A, Rafale cannot do that at all.. And Brahmos A is available

Rafale can also be modified to use brahmos.Su-30mki does not had the capability or the brahmos is too long for a fighter plane.But after some modifications they made it possible so rafales can also be modified to do this job.

 

[jaciunite2]

I am not going to reply to a retard. there was no MiG-35 in the post at all, we were talking of F/A-18 and its versions, but remember one thing babe, The numbers of F/A-18 E/F is more than whatever nos of Rafales still produced,. and the F/A 18 other versions are more than 4 times Rafale produced. So Shut the F up

I am just giving you an example. cant you take the truth that you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[jaciunite2]

I have done already and found it not to be something extra ordinary. So the guy who tells me that he does not have time to do search of google for OMNI ROLE, should not talk about it, because you do not know about it. BOY.

I am amazed how much idiot a man can be? You still dont get it and i have doubts you will.

 

[sgarg]

They will arm all the weapons based on intelligence provided by any source.
Look if a scenario arises where the intelligence is saying that there are some air defence weapons,Some fighter jets and maybe something more.Now if you use su-30mki in this scenario there will be 2 less hardpoints.If they use rafale with similar capabilities than they can use the extra 2 hardpoints for intelligence gathering, or extra weapons when there is less intelligence available.

I doubt Rafale has been chosen for "hard-points". The primary factor is better sensors and weapons compared to Russian origin planes.
However Su-30 also has non-Russian avionics (French and Indian). Su-30MKI is NOT a pure Russian plane. The engine issue is also sorted I think. India has complete overhaul capability for Su-30 engines plus there are improvements.

http://defencenews.in/defence-news-internal.aspx?id=c1yIsI6us8o=

 

[jaciunite2]

Su-30/Su-27 is being used by several air forces in addition to Russian Air Force. It is a very successful line of fighters. Your love for Rafale is laudable; but the fact remains that Su-30 can pretty much do what a Rafale can do.

There are a number of weapons available for Su-30 and a picture proves nothing.

Please refer to ..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: Sukhoi Su-30SM: An Indian Gift to Russia�s Air Force for a profile on Su-30.

If you are talking about su-30mki vs f-15 then i can agree with you.
But with rafale there will be tough competition man.Rafales even get killshot in air exercises over F-22 Raptors.Well the point is-as the iaf chief said before they can complement each other but they cant replace each other.

 

[sgarg]

If you are talking about su-30mki vs f-15 then i can agree with you.
But with rafale there will be tough competition man.Rafales even get killshot in air exercises over F-22 Raptors.Well the point is-as the iaf chief said before they can complement each other but they cant replace each other.

Well the tender specifies the requirements for MMRCA. I doubt a kill-shot on F-22 is one of it. MOD will buy according to specs in the tender as the price is according to specs.

I am sure Rafale is a good plane but I doubt the kind of fan-boyism we see here will actually decide the outcome in this case.

 

[jaciunite2]

I doubt Rafale has been chosen for "hard-points". The primary factor is better sensors and weapons compared to Russian origin planes.
However Su-30 also has non-Russian avionics (French and Indian). Su-30MKI is NOT a pure Russian plane. The engine issue is also sorted I think. India has complete overhaul capability for Su-30 engines plus there are improvements.

http://defencenews.in/defence-news-internal.aspx?id=c1yIsI6us8o=

If you have doubts than i have some doubts that you are wrong.
In my opinion they decided to purchase rafale because of its data fusion system,Its hardpoints,Its omnirole platform and many more.

 

[sgarg]

If you have doubts than i have some doubts that you are wrong.
In my opinion they decided to purchase rafale because of its data fusion system,Its hardpoints,Its omnirole platform and many more.

Has anybody said so? References please? You forget that two planes were finalized, not one.
Did the tender specify 14 hard-points, or omni-role?

 

[smestarz]

It's nothing but a bomber Configuration packing 18 unguided bombs to drop enemy area for Surgical attack..

The role of the Mission exactly

What you say is correct, so now is it problem of the plane?, or the problem in Doctrine?
It has 4 pylons which can carry medium and short range missiles and I am pretty sure that the plane has not fired them but was not armed with it. Thus if you send a plane armed with nothing (Rafale or Su-30 MKI) there is nothing it can do. A plane can do its mission based on the capability of the weapons its armed with and its avionics. Both Rafale and Su-30 MKI have the right weapons and capability. Only thing is IAF top brass is too dumb to realise it. After all they want to buy Rafale and line their pockets.

If Su 30 carries a Brahmos it can able to launch only one missile and switch it's primary Air superiority role
wHile Rafale can strike a Specific Target and hover fight against enemy jets again attack a Tank or Building and hover and Fight against enemy Jets, repeat repeat repeat

First, Rafale cannot carry Brahmos A. its too big for it, but whatever is hit by Brahmos. will stay hit.
Once again you miss the point here and that is doctrine,
When Brahmos is put on the central pylon (two pylons) it still has 10 other pylons, and out of these 2 inner pylons can be used for A2G weapons or A2A missles and the outer two pylons are for A2A missiles only.
Further remember, with the 3 drop tanks, Rafale will not be in position to defend itself against agile planes like Su-30 MKI and it is usually a standard practice, that when a plane even like Rafale comes up against air attack, in order to have an advantage the drop tanks are dropped first to ensure better advantage at air combat.

Thus it is based on doctrine of the air force and the vision,

Before second world war, air craft carrier were not important and they had only support role, but Admiral Yamamoto and his officers saw the carrier as an offensive weapon and more powerful than the Battleships like Yamato which were considered awesome when they were launched. But Yamamoto developed a doctrine in carrier warfare such that the Japanese were able to catch the americans by surprise at Pearl Harbour and destroy their capital ships.

Also the new battleship of Japan YAMATO was destroyed enroute to Okinawa by Carrier based planes of USN, thus it is not only the weapon but the strategies, tactics and the doctrine developed for the usage

 

[smestarz]

It's nothing but a bomber Configuration packing 18 unguided bombs to drop enemy area for Surgical attack..

The role of the Mission exactly

What you say is correct, so now is it problem of the plane?, or the problem in Doctrine?
It has 4 pylons which can carry medium and short range missiles and I am pretty sure that the plane has not fired them but was not armed with it. Thus if you send a plane armed with nothing (Rafale or Su-30 MKI) there is nothing it can do. A plane can do its mission based on the capability of the weapons its armed with and its avionics. Both Rafale and Su-30 MKI have the right weapons and capability. Only thing is IAF top brass is too dumb to realise it. After all they want to buy Rafale and line their pockets.

If Su 30 carries a Brahmos it can able to launch only one missile and switch it's primary Air superiority role
wHile Rafale can strike a Specific Target and hover fight against enemy jets again attack a Tank or Building and hover and Fight against enemy Jets, repeat repeat repeat

First, Rafale cannot carry Brahmos A. its too big for it, but whatever is hit by Brahmos. will stay hit.
Once again you miss the point here and that is doctrine,
When Brahmos is put on the central pylon (two pylons) it still has 10 other pylons, and out of these 2 inner pylons can be used for A2G weapons or A2A missles and the outer two pylons are for A2A missiles only.
Further remember, with the 3 drop tanks, Rafale will not be in position to defend itself against agile planes like Su-30 MKI and it is usually a standard practice, that when a plane even like Rafale comes up against air attack, in order to have an advantage the drop tanks are dropped first to ensure better advantage at air combat.

Thus it is based on doctrine of the air force and the vision,

Before second world war, air craft carrier were not important and they had only support role, but Admiral Yamamoto and his officers saw the carrier as an offensive weapon and more powerful than the Battleships like Yamato which were considered awesome when they were launched. But Yamamoto developed a doctrine in carrier warfare such that the Japanese were able to catch the americans by surprise at Pearl Harbour and destroy their capital ships.

Also the new battleship of Japan YAMATO was destroyed enroute to Okinawa by Carrier based planes of USN, thus it is not only the weapon but the strategies, tactics and the doctrine developed for the usage

 

[smestarz]

When a serving COAS says "I cannot fight a war without Rafale" - a lot of people will ask questions. People in IAF itself are asking questions - what is it that capability of IAF is seriously jeopardized without Rafale?

There are many intelligent people besides COAS, at least that you will agree.

The GOI is still trying to negotiate but this kind of pressure tactics only BENEFITS THE VENDOR, not India or IAF.

It does benefit some officers of the IAF, after all it is their retirement fund, NAK Browne being one of them