Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

[mans.randhawa]

Russkies will dance on the streets if India agreed for Mig-35 at 50% of the price. TOT - India knows almost everything for building Russia-origin planes.

Ruskies are already helping with amca and if they share ew suite and AESA radar tech of mig 35 this will be good alternative to rafale .
We already have mig 29 k for navy so from mantainence point of view this will be economical too as most components / spares will be common .

 

[Blackwater]

1. IAF MiG-29 evaluation, versus the Mirage 2000-H.

Source:http://www.scribd.com/doc/21520658/Mirage-2000-Vs-MiG-29-Rivals-from-the-same-team

Air Marshal rtd, Harish Masand, then Wing Commander and CO of First Supersonics (MiG-29 squadron) versus the No.1 Tigers squadron led by then Wing Commander Ahluwahlia (later Air Marshal).

Evaluation in 1988:

MiG-29 outperformed the Mirage 2000 in "every sphere", parameters mentioned: STR, ITR, climb (climb rate). Range to payload of Mirage 2000 better, but MiG-29 and Mirage consumed almost the same amount of fuel in combat situations as the latter had to use afterburner more often.

Group combat and role specific missions: "Radar, IRST, HMSD, voice information system put to good use".

i was talking about spares and repair of MIG,21,23,27 and chalo MIG 29 too by HAL.

 

[mans.randhawa]

IAF MIG-29 UPGRADE:-
source:-bharatrakshak.wikia

Its quite evident that the MiG-29 as such is a very lethal platform. With modern avionics, it can take on & defeat current generation aircraft, including the Block 50 F-16, when properly flown.

Its primary "deficits" were in terms of its older avionics and limited fuel capacity.

The IAF upgrade, which is to SMT level and beyond, addresses these issues.

Original IAF MiG-29s are believed to have received limited upgrades already, including local Tarang RWRs plus improvements to the radar to the N019ME standard.

Avionics

- New databus 1553B standard to incorporate newer avionics

- New mission computers, navigation system (RLG-INS w/GPS + possible Glonass module - Sagem's Sigma95N), Stores Management System, new VRS (Video Recording System) plus DMG (Display Map Generator). VRS and DMG likely to be sourced from Israel or locally.

-Glass cockpit with new HUD, two MFDs, HOTAS

-Zhuk ME MultiFunction radar with A2A/A2G modes; new IFF; Zhuk variant for IAF is Zhuk M2E, with an improved signal processor over Indian Navy MiG-29Ks which received the Zhuk M1E (source:AWST Sharper Eyes for India's MiGs) The improved processor would allow for improved raid assessment, and NCTR (non cooperative target recognition).

Deputy Director (Phazatron) Yuri Goskov quoted:

Guskov said that Phazotron is already working on the next modification of its slot array radars, the Zhuk M2E. This version will have a faster processor, allowing it to classify targets by type (for instance, fighters, bombers and helicopters) and to break-out formation targets flying at 20-30 meters apart. The radar can also be programmed to identify aircraft by type – in the case of a new type, it can record its reflected signal and later use it for identification.
The Zhuk M2E should start flight testing this year. The modernized radar will equip 62 Indian Air Force MiG-29s that MiG is modifying to the MiG-29UPG configuration under contract to the IAF.
Zhuk ME specifications

Brochure - note these are "public details" for advertising purposes. Actual specifications may exceed some of the specifications shown.



-NIPP OLS-UE (as on latest MiG-35 and MiG-29K). Has a TV channel. Also has an advanced IR matrix for increased range. For the MiG-35, MiG notes "The IRST system with infra-red, TV and laser sighting equipment has been developed using the space technologies which were not applied previously in aviation. The system distinctive features are the increased range, detection, tracking, identification and lock-on of air, ground/surface targets in the forward and rear hemispheres, at day and night measuring the distance with laser range-finder as well as the formation of target designation and laser illumination of ground targets. The IRST system and new helmet-mounted target designation system are integrated into the armament control system." The IAF SMT upgrade does not have the fuselage mounted pod, so it cannot track ground targets (IAF will use the Litening instead) but rest applies, for the forward facing IRST.

-D-29 EW suite: Developed by DRDO with inhouse high accuracy DF RWR fit which cues AESA jammers. Latter codeveloped with Elettronica. DARE developed a high performance EW system with a scalable, modular architecture. The system can receive signals from multiple channels, process them in an Indian developed signal processing suite, and then devise appropriate jamming countermeasures to be initiated by jammers linked to the output channels. The LCA & MiG-27 Upgrade, both feature conventional Transmitter based jammers but the MiG-29 has an AESA fit developed with Elettronica. This system combines high grade coverage with high ERP (Emitted Radiated Power) for effective countermeasures.

-Improved chaff & flares system: Likely to be the locally developed system by Bharat Dynamics Ltd.

-V/UHF radio fit + IAF datalink. Radios likely to be Software Defined Radios developed by HAL

-VOR/ILS/TACAN from HAL

Weaponry

-R73E,R77, KH-35UE, KAB-500/1500, Kh-31 A/P family.

agree with your above points and with improved rd 33 engines reliability of mig 29/35 has increased to great extent

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

well most of the mebers and people did not dwell upon some recent news & its import

the News first

IAF to come out with its own vision & concept for stand off strike weapons

i think some member had posted a thread here on this forum in last week timeframe


now the Importance of this news

this news items shows that IAFs thinking is shifting from sending aircrafts close in to strike ground targets. But since the operational requirements for such roles will be there so they are thinking towards moving to stnad off precision weapons to fulfill the requirements

now what the stand off strike weapons usage will mean is

there will be lesser risk to weapon launch aircraft
there can be relaxed SQR for aircraft in these roles than those current SQR

means that the low level penetration & superb close ground strike requirements may not be there at all in the future because the aircraft will be launching stand off precision weapons ( such as recently developed glide bomb ) which may need to be released from altitude

if this is the direction that IAF thinking is taking than

most of the points which are being touted in favour of rafale
- better ground strik ability
- better low ground bombing - low altitude handling
- low level penetration abilitiy

and which is being pointed out that such abilities are not present in other comparable aircraft to the degree that it is available in Rafale -

may not be Necesary in the new battle / weapons concept to which IAF is moving

so even LCA Tejas etc will become as much effective in ground strike roles using standoff weapons

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

My preference is to station 10 sq. (5 each Mig-29K and LCA) in south India. Two sq. of Mig-29K are already in place. India should go for 3 more thus giving IN real air capability.
Better to have more capable 5th generation or large 4th generation planes in the north. A su-35 with massive radar and long range BVR missiles is a much better bet compared to Rafale.

there are news doing the rounds that Su35 deal between india russia may not be ONLY NEWS RUMOURS or SPECULATIONS after all

 

[jaciunite2]

NEW DELHI: India's multi-billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract with France has not been finalised yet and is still in the negotiation stage, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar informed Lok Sabha today.

"Rafael deal is not through or final. If it is at all finalised in future, it will take time. I would not like to comment on it as it is still in the negotiation stage," he said during question hour.

The Rafale deal for 126 jets is estimated to cost over USD 20 billion over the next decade and is considered to be the biggest global defence tender.

The Defence Minister said the Defence Acquisition Council has recently cleared 44 projects worth Rs 1,34,000 crore and all of them were critical for the armed forces.

"We are trying to fast track our defence acquisition process. One example is bullet-proof jacket. We have already ordered 50,000 bullet proof jacket and 50,000 more are expected to be ordered shortly...," he said.

Parrikar said his Ministry was ensuring that all three wings of the armed forces coordinate with each other for inclusiveness rather than exclusiveness, so that duplication is avoided while acquiring defence products.

Observing that some critical shortages in ammunitions were being addressed, he said a constant endeavour was made for upgrading the conventional equipment, developing new technologies and acquiring contemporary systems.

"Mismatches between requirements and availability can sometimes occur which are continually address by the on-going procurement process," he said.

Parrikar said unsafe and outdated equipment were not utilised by defence forces. Ageing of equipment is a natural process and is dealt with through proper maintenance, obsolescence management, upgrades and acquisition of new equipment.

The Defence Acquisition Council has decided for procurement of light helicopters under the 'buy and make' category. Five cases of procurement of small arms are at different stages of the procurement cycle, he said.(source:-economictimes.com)

 

[sgarg]

i was talking about spares and repair of MIG,21,23,27 and chalo MIG 29 too by HAL.

What about that. Please give specific instances.

People forget that IAF maintains its planes mostly in-house.
IAF buys large amount of parts directly including imports.

HAL does major overhauls / upgrades. So let us see what you come up with in terms of facts.

 

[grampiguy]

IAF facing internal differences on the Rafale deal ?????

Retired ACM Krishnaswamy puts the Rafale deal in perspective for the Indian Air Force. It is a good example where he shows respect to his institution's sensitivities but doesn't hold back in criticizing the unwanted aspects.

I found the best part of this article in the second half:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Week | Get those Rafales, quick

Buying new planes, guns and ships alone would not make our military potent.

Innovative ways have to be found to reduce the cost of operations and of inventory management. Innovative ways have to be found to also improve manpower quality, and reduce surplus manpower. The tooth-to-tail ratio in the Indian military is one of the lowest among modern military forces.

While we criticise public sector undertakings, the time is right for the military to transfer its industrial functions to the private sector. Military service has gradually become a government job. While permanent commission is treated like permanence 'till death do us apart', those who join in short service commission are going to court to become permanent!

The Air Force must permit its personnel to retire after putting a minimum number of years of service. There should no longer be a difference between permanent and short service.

There is a lot on the plate for the government and the military to resolve. Modernisation is an all-encompassing exercise and is not limited only to inducting billion-dollar equipment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


It seems that Rafale procurement will become a big slap in IAF's face, eventually.

 

[pmaitra]

Members are requested to check whether a thread already exists before opening a new thread.

Four threads have been merged into one.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

@pmaitra and other admin: I request you to review the above post and advise if this kind of language is appropriate.

 

[sorcerer]

Parrikar Puts His Foot Down, No Compromise On Rafale Deal

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has conveyed to the French government and defence equipment manufacturer Dassault that conditions on the price and RFP (request for proposal) of the purchase of Rafale multi-medium role combat aircraft were non-negotiable.

According to The New Indian Express, in riposte to a question on the long-delayed deal with the French firm for 126 fighter jets — often called the mother of all deals — Parrikar on Tuesday said, "We have conveyed our stand to them (France) very clearly. Simultaneously, they have to tell us whether they can do it or not. We can't keep on waiting."

Parrikar's French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian had visited India last month to attend a meeting with delegates from both sides, including top executives from Dassault, in a last ditch effort to save the deal. However, little progress has been made so far. Earlier, Parrikar had said if the on-going deadlock continued, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) would strengthen the existing Su-30Mki fleet to meet the IAF's requirements.

Citing cost escalation, Dassault has refused to take 'full responsibility' of the 108 fighters to be manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as per the original tender.

Sources within the MoD privy to the development said the cost of the project had shot up to over $20 billion from the initial $ 12 billion, when the tender was floated in 2007.

The cost negotiation committee set up to finalise the modalities of the deal in February, 2012, has not reached a consensus so far.

Read more: http://hindi.sputniknews.com/south_asia/20150318/1013796547.html#ixzz3Ukv6JuX3

 

[Khagesh]

I liked Rafale. But his picture in livefist somehow reminded me of the song - Bhag Bhag D K Bose D K Bose D K Bose

1.bp.blogspot.com/-DcGAtMatmiw/VQk6gPGoFoI/AAAAAAAAYX4/ddD2pW6HHXA/s1600/su30-rafale.jpg

LIVEFIST: Next: Rafale Vs. Su-30MKI - The New Indian Dogfight

 

[sgarg]

@Khagesh, my view is that money is not adequate to set up another fighter line for Rafale. GOI will have to juggle between Su-30 and LCA lines, until another line for AMCA is set up.

Better option is to buy fully built units from France - say 60 units - and forget about the TOT. However even this option will happen only if tender terms are adhered to. Nobody is willing for price escalation.

 

[sorcerer]

Dassault: Work on India Rafale Sale 95% Done
5:33 p.m. EDT March 26, 2015

PARIS — Work on completing an Indian contract for acquiring the Rafale fighter jet is taking time, but 95 percent of the paperwork is done, Dassault Aviation Chairman Eric Trappier said.

The deal to purchase 126 Rafales is now "95 percent completed," with the French company working with the Indian authorities to review thousands of contract pages, Trappier said Wednesday, Agence France-Presse reported.

Trappier was speaking at Istres, southern France, as Dassault and Thales handed over the first two upgraded Mirage 2000 fighters to the Indian Air Force. The modernization deal, reported by La Tribune to be worth €1.4 billion (US $1.5 billion), is for 51 fighters.

"I would like to go faster [but] it is an enormous contract," Trappier said. "As I have said before, I prefer that we are taking our time now "¦ rather than have problems later."

Dassault looks to its 60-year ties with India, forged with the company's sale of the Ouragan fighter in 1953, to help close a deal on the Rafale.

"India is Dassault Aviation's first export client and the historical relationship we nurtured with the Indian Air Force has spanned 60 years, growing from strength to strength," Trappier said in a statement.

"The Rafale is the next logical step," he said.

Thales, an electronic systems company, worked with Indian partners to modernize the Mirage and would extend the ties.

"We are ready to continue developing this teamwork in the future," said Pierre-Eric Pommellet, executive vice president at Thales and head of Defense Mission Systems.

India seeks to strengthen the domestic industrial base with the "Make in India" policy.

Dassault sees Indian work on the Mirage as helping prepare the ground for the proposed local assembly of Rafales. The Indian partner, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., (HAL), will continue the modernization contract for the remaining 49 Mirages.

HAL would be the local co-contractor for assembling the Rafale.

Thales upgraded the radar, electronic warfare and mission computer on the Mirage.
Dassault: Work on India Rafale Sale 95% Done

 

[Kunal Biswas]

95% since couple of months, Nothing new here ..

 

[Pulkit]

95% since couple of months, Nothing new here ..

Eagerly waiting to hear news of "Rafale Deal Scrapped": Real News

"IAF Happy Rafale Deal Scrapped" Faking news

 

[jaciunite2]

Eagerly waiting to hear news of "Rafale Deal Scrapped": Real News

"IAF Happy Rafale Deal Scrapped" Faking news

Rafales are coming boy dont you see it

 

[Pulkit]

Rafales are coming boy dont you see it

check the date of the post first....
and the deal is scrapped.
a new deal with limited numbers is ordered....
the point we have raising since the very beginning...

cost is low ... numbers are less....

And yes boy I see them coming but the deal we were talkimg about then no longer exist

 

[halloweene]

Wel... yes and no @Pulkit. Dassault peaople are still working in India for "make india". What willl be the final contract, noone knows (at least i don't)

 

[jaciunite2]

check the date of the post first....
and the deal is scrapped.
a new deal with limited numbers is ordered....
the point we have raising since the very beginning...

cost is low ... numbers are less....

And yes boy I see them coming but the deal we were talkimg about then no longer exist

Are you joking the deal is not scrapped instead now its a g2g deal
to meet the urgent requrement of IAF.