Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

Pulkit

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Are you joking the deal is not scrapped instead now its a g2g deal
to meet the urgent requrement of IAF.
are u kidding me g2g is the deal bypassing the old new...
In the old deal g2g was not a clause.

The original deal is no longer there.

and i think u need to read the thread thoroughly before replying.
or even if u have read my post to which u commented properly u wud have got my point.

please read understand then respond
 

Zebra

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http://www.businessinsider.in/India...s-Desire-and-Dilemma/articleshow/47469257.cms

FACTS- Dassault Rafale vs Sukhoi SU-35

Sukhoi SU-35 is cheaper.........?
Dassault Rafale is more economical.
Sukhoi SU-35 is faster.
Sukhoi SU-35 is better armed.
Dassault Rafale is better dogfighter.
Dassault Rafale is smaller than Sukhoi SU-35.

----------------------------------------------------

http://idrw.org/indias-fighter-aircraft-ambitions-desire-and-dilemma/#more-65141



-------------------------------------------------------------

Let me put in this way.........

If a country wants to get at least 30 Su-35 / Rafale aircraft in ready to scramble position in any given point of time.

Then how many number of aircrafts they have to buy in total to get 30 aircrafts ready to go....?
What will be the acquisition cost of the whole lot......?
What will be the maintenance cost of the whole lot....?

Now compare Su-35 and Rafale.
 

sorcerer

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India's 36 Rafale Fighter Purchase From France Hits Roadblocks

India’s order of 36 off-the-shelf Dassault Rafale fighters, announced in March during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s summit with French President Francois Hollande, is reportedly hitting more than a few roadblocks. Reuters reports that Indian government officials have been struggling to come to a set of final sale terms with the fighter’s manufacturer, Dassault Aviation. These new problems threaten to delay the delivery date of these fighters and their incorporation into the Indian Air Force (IAF).

News of the delay comes shortly after the Indian defense ministry formally announced that the country’s original request for proposal (RFP) for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) had been scrapped. The March announcement between Modi and Hollande was seen as a stopgap agreement that would satisfy both Dassault, which wanted to close a sale on the Rafale without acquiescing to Indian demands to manufacture a number of fighters in India, and the IAF, which needed modern multi-role fighters to bolster its existing fleet of mostly aging aircraft.

According to Reuters, which cites Indian defense officials with knowledge of the matter, the Indian government and Dassault are negotiating the unit price of the fighters. Reportedly, the sale has become complicated by an Indian request that Dassault Aviation invest “a big percentage” of the revenue it’d receive from this sale in India. The Indian demand appears to be an attempt to have this sale benefit India’s indigenous defense industry, which would have received a boon had the original MMRCA RFP with Dassault gone through. Of the 126 aircraft that were originally planned, New Delhi wanted state firm Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to build 112 units in India. Concerns over liability and quality assurance kept Dassault from accepting those terms, delaying the MMRCA’s timeline over several years until its official implosion last month.


The new delays highlight hesitation on the Indian side regarding the government’s decision to go with a purchase of 36 units in “fly-away” condition.
One of the Indian officials who spoke to Reuters notes that, “Since there is no technology transfer, the price that was on the table during the commercial talks ($200 million per unit) cannot stand.” With the original MMRCA, New Delhi expected technology transfer and manufacturing responsibilities. Still, as earlier reports have noted, the asking price is what Dassault offers the French air force. The IAF’s purchase of Dassault Mirage 2000s in the 1980s took place under similar pricing terms. It seems that from New Delhi’s perspective, 2015′s deal with Dassault should look better than the Mirage purchase.


As I noted recently, now that the MMRCA tender for Dassault is no more, New Delhi is expected to announce that the remaining 90 units MMRCA units needed by the IAF (in addition to the 36 Rafales) will be built within India. In the meantime, it’s unclear just how far Indian negotiators will hold out with Dassault to conclude the 36-jet deal on terms favorable to India.


http://thediplomat.com/2015/08/indias-36-rafale-fighter-purchase-from-france-hits-roadblocks/
 

sorcerer

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Latest Indian, French Rafale deal runs into problems - sources


India's order of 36 French-made Rafale fighter jets has run into trouble with government officials struggling to agree sales terms, sources said, four months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi intervened to break a logjam in previous commercial negotiations.

Two senior Indian defence officials told Reuters that both sides were wrangling over the unit price of the aircraft and a condition that planemaker Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) invest a big percentage of the value of the multi-billion dollar contract in India.

The problems threaten to further delay the modernisation of India's ageing air force.

Military officials have warned of a major capability gap opening up with rivals China and Pakistan without new Western warplanes or if local defence contractors cannot build what the military needs in a timely manner.

Modi and French President Francois Hollande announced the government-to-government deal for the sale of the off-the-shelf Rafale fighters on April 10.

That followed three years of commercial negotiations with Dassault for 126 aircraft that stalled due to disagreements over assembling most of the aircraft in India.

Citing India's urgent defence needs, Modi chose to deal directly with Paris for a smaller order, saying officials would work out the details.

On May 16, Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told local media that negotiations over pricing would be finished in a "month or two".

But those talks were bogged down over India's insistence on a lower price for the frontline warplanes than the roughly $200 million each that was discussed with Dassault during the commercial talks, said the two defence officials, who have been briefed on the new negotiations.

Under the previous proposal, Dassault was to assemble 108 of the aircraft in India, a move New Delhi hoped would help boost a high-tech local aerospace industry. There is no production in India in the new arrangement.

"Since there is no technology transfer, the price that was on the table during the commercial talks cannot stand," said one of the officials, who declined to be identified because he was not authorised to speak to the media.

The Indian Defence Ministry said negotiators were in talks to produce a draft agreement, but declined to give details. Parrikar said last week that New Delhi had told Paris in April it wanted the jets as soon as possible.

A Dassault spokesman declined to comment, as did the French defence procurement agency.

DEBATE OVER OFFSETS

The two Indian officials said another sticking point was New Delhi's standard requirement that arms makers invest a percentage of the value of any deal above $50 million in India.

Such so-called offset policies are not unusual in the developing world, where Western defence firms have invested in local technology and jobs in return for sales.

In this instance, India wants Dassault to invest at least 30 percent of the contract value in India through activities such as the sourcing of components for future French operations, the setting up of manufacturing facilities in India or by providing high-tech job training, the officials said.

France has said it was ready to meet the offset obligations, but that it would take time to set up a vendor base in India for components for example and that this could push up the deal's cost, the first defence official said.

"Unless this is waived at the highest levels, the Defence Ministry is proceeding on the basis that offset requirements have to be met," the official said.

During the commercial negotiations, India had set the offset bar at 50 percent of the contract, the official added.

"This issue has become bigger than the procurement," said Amit Cowshish, a former financial advisor on arms purchases to the Indian Defence Ministry, who has been tracking the negotiations.


DIFFERENT PRIORITIES


Complicating matters, the Indian Air Force (IAF) had asked for technical modifications so the latest weapons could be fitted to the jets, the second defence official said.


Initial technical specifications, which were part of the commercial negotiations, were outlined a decade ago when India began the process of seeking new fighters.

A French source familiar with the matter said differing priorities within India were delaying matters, with the air force focused on weaponry and the Defence Ministry on offsets.

"All along the IAF has asked for more armaments than what Dassault has offered while the Indian administration has demanded offsets," the source said.

The air force declined to comment, saying the deal was in the government's hands.

The Rafale fighters are meant to fill a gap in an air force deployed for a two-front war against China and Pakistan.

A domestic programme to build a light combat aircraft to form the backbone of the air force is 19 years behind schedule, with the first plane due for final operational clearance in March 2016.

Meanwhile, nearly 260 MiG 21 and MiG 27 Cold War-era fighter jets are due to be phased out in about eight years.

"Even with the entry of the Rafales, the air force has reconciled itself to depleted aircraft strength over the next decade," said retired air vice marshal Kapil Kak.

(Additional reporting by Cyril Altmeyerhenzien in PARIS; Editing by Dean Yates)

http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/08/12/india-france-rafale-idINKCN0QH0P320150812
 

sorcerer

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Defence Ministry brings major retrospective changes in offsets policy
NEW DELHI: In a move that is likely to open up over $3.5 billion as investments into the Indian defence and aerospace manufacturing sector, the defence ministry has brought major retrospective changes in the offsets policy, giving foreign companies much more flexibility in choosing partners and allocating work shares.

In a new notification that applies to all defence contracts that had offset obligations — to invest at least 30 per cent of the contract value into the Indian defence manufacturing sector — the ministry has permitted foreign companies to change Indian partners with a minimal process.

While in the past, any changes in an offset work package — which was decided as many as three years in advance due to the painstaking procurement process — would have to be approved in multiple players and finally by the high powered Defence Acquisition Committee (DAC), the deciding authority has been now changed to the Secretary, Defence Production.

Even changes in the offset partner itself will now be approved at the Secretary level, negating a long drawn process earlier that would see files moving at snail's pace of a few months if not years for changes. With the amendments, foreign companies will now be able to select partners and contracts at the 'execution stage', instead of a few years in advance.

"Both these amendments, with retrospective effect, should clear most bottlenecks in offset execution on the ground as well as spur high-technology work flowing into the country for the purpose of discharging offsets. OEMs will be far more comfortable in proposing work-packages, feeling comfortable that if required it is not an insurmountable task to change the same," Ankur Gupta of Ernst and Young India told ET.

Industry experts say that a prime reason for a deadlocked offset policy — close to $4.5 billion of work has been signed under offsets since 2008 but and less than a quarter has actually been executed — was the requirement of providing detailed work-packages at the time of the submission of initial bids itself.

"The time gap between the signing of the contract and the freezing of offset work share could easily stretch to 2-4 years and by that time the requirements of the companies would change as technology evolves swiftly," an industry insider said.

http://www.defencenews.in/defence-news-internal.aspx?id=pz9QzeHrjxM=
 

Blackwater

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India's 36 Rafale Fighter Purchase From France Hits Roadblocks

India’s order of 36 off-the-shelf Dassault Rafale fighters, announced in March during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s summit with French President Francois Hollande, is reportedly hitting more than a few roadblocks. Reuters reports that Indian government officials have been struggling to come to a set of final sale terms with the fighter’s manufacturer, Dassault Aviation. These new problems threaten to delay the delivery date of these fighters and their incorporation into the Indian Air Force (IAF).

News of the delay comes shortly after the Indian defense ministry formally announced that the country’s original request for proposal (RFP) for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) had been scrapped. The March announcement between Modi and Hollande was seen as a stopgap agreement that would satisfy both Dassault, which wanted to close a sale on the Rafale without acquiescing to Indian demands to manufacture a number of fighters in India, and the IAF, which needed modern multi-role fighters to bolster its existing fleet of mostly aging aircraft.

According to Reuters, which cites Indian defense officials with knowledge of the matter, the Indian government and Dassault are negotiating the unit price of the fighters. Reportedly, the sale has become complicated by an Indian request that Dassault Aviation invest “a big percentage” of the revenue it’d receive from this sale in India. The Indian demand appears to be an attempt to have this sale benefit India’s indigenous defense industry, which would have received a boon had the original MMRCA RFP with Dassault gone through. Of the 126 aircraft that were originally planned, New Delhi wanted state firm Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to build 112 units in India. Concerns over liability and quality assurance kept Dassault from accepting those terms, delaying the MMRCA’s timeline over several years until its official implosion last month.


The new delays highlight hesitation on the Indian side regarding the government’s decision to go with a purchase of 36 units in “fly-away” condition.
One of the Indian officials who spoke to Reuters notes that, “Since there is no technology transfer, the price that was on the table during the commercial talks ($200 million per unit) cannot stand.” With the original MMRCA, New Delhi expected technology transfer and manufacturing responsibilities. Still, as earlier reports have noted, the asking price is what Dassault offers the French air force. The IAF’s purchase of Dassault Mirage 2000s in the 1980s took place under similar pricing terms. It seems that from New Delhi’s perspective, 2015′s deal with Dassault should look better than the Mirage purchase.


As I noted recently, now that the MMRCA tender for Dassault is no more, New Delhi is expected to announce that the remaining 90 units MMRCA units needed by the IAF (in addition to the 36 Rafales) will be built within India. In the meantime, it’s unclear just how far Indian negotiators will hold out with Dassault to conclude the 36-jet deal on terms favorable to India.


http://thediplomat.com/2015/08/indias-36-rafale-fighter-purchase-from-france-hits-roadblocks/

bhai aab to JF-17 hi le lo:frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty:
 
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Compersion

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F-15 anyone with a strong GE engine manufacturing blue print and tot (with aappropriate shalom)

But reality thinks su30mki will be added more in short term
 

roma

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Dassault: Work on India Rafale Sale 95% Done
5:33 p.m. EDT March 26, 2015

PARIS — Work on completing an Indian contract for acquiring the Rafale fighter jet is taking time, but 95 percent of the paperwork is done, Dassault Aviation Chairman Eric Trappier said.

The deal to purchase 126 Rafales is now "95 percent completed," with the French company working with the Indian authorities to review thousands of contract pages, Trappier said Wednesday, Agence France-Presse reported.

Trappier was speaking at Istres, southern France, as Dassault and Thales handed over the first two upgraded Mirage 2000 fighters to the Indian Air Force. The modernization deal, reported by La Tribune to be worth €1.4 billion (US $1.5 billion), is for 51 fighters.

"I would like to go faster [but] it is an enormous contract," Trappier said. "As I have said before, I prefer that we are taking our time now "¦ rather than have problems later."

Dassault looks to its 60-year ties with India, forged with the company's sale of the Ouragan fighter in 1953, to help close a deal on the Rafale.

"India is Dassault Aviation's first export client and the historical relationship we nurtured with the Indian Air Force has spanned 60 years, growing from strength to strength," Trappier said in a statement.

"The Rafale is the next logical step," he said.

Thales, an electronic systems company, worked with Indian partners to modernize the Mirage and would extend the ties.

"We are ready to continue developing this teamwork in the future," said Pierre-Eric Pommellet, executive vice president at Thales and head of Defense Mission Systems.

India seeks to strengthen the domestic industrial base with the "Make in India" policy.

Dassault sees Indian work on the Mirage as helping prepare the ground for the proposed local assembly of Rafales. The Indian partner, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., (HAL), will continue the modernization contract for the remaining 49 Mirages.

HAL would be the local co-contractor for assembling the Rafale.

Thales upgraded the radar, electronic warfare and mission computer on the Mirage.
Dassault: Work on India Rafale Sale 95% Done
i think we are putting our vitally important defence eggs into one untested basket , the french military industrial complex

it would have been much better to have accepted the top two tender responses and work them in parallel, especially given that we already know that there are a lot of sticking points and that the panes are required in rather a hurry and especially knowing that this project has already been delayed extraordinarily beyond the original time frame , there still seems to be no special effort and no special measures to counter all these extenuating circumstances !

parallel negotiations would have the advantage such that if one of them tries any tricks we could merely increase the volume via the other

.....that way we achieve our purchasing requirements for defence and give a strong warning to the party that is not complying

also it help us spread the money and widen our contact with suppliers so that in case of emergencies we are not depending on one sole supplier

without this dual track approach, but depending on the French
only we are actually allowing them to hold us hostage at their will

i therefore question the wisdom of the goi's present arrangement of relying solely on one supplier for a defence mater of such extreme importance and it makes me seriously wonder how they do management of such high value projects ?????

is there a sufficiently high level of lateral thinking in the ministry of defence ? or is it still infested with babu mentality ? people can give Namo rave reviews but in the end were are facing some rather lack-lustre performance in reality

@sgarg quoted below made a great point and it is to India's credit that indeed we know a great deal in dealing with russian aircraft , so even having the mig 35 at 50 % rafaels price could act as a sufficient carrot-stick effect to the sole supplier potential hostage position as i described earlier

there are times when goi does well and there are times when they make us wonder if they passed their school exams ..!

or
Russkies will dance on the streets if India agreed for Mig-35 at 50% of the price. TOT - India knows almost everything for building Russia-origin planes.
ref
@angeldude13 @bose @brational @blueblood @anupamsurey @ersakthivel @Blackwater @bengalraider @cobra commando @DingDong @Hari Sud @Kunal Biswas @LETHALFORCE @mhk99 @Neil @OneGrimPilgrim @pmaitra @Rowdy @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @Srinivas_K @sorcerer @TejasMK3 @Yusuf @jackprince @Bangalorean @indiandefencefan @aliyah @hit&run @VIP @Razor @Blood+ @Screambowl @Sylex21 @tsunami @Zebra @Rashna
 
Last edited:

Screambowl

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i think we are putting our vitally important defence eggs into one untested basket , the french military industrial complex

it would have been much better to have accepted the top two tender responses and work them in parallel, especially given that we already know that there are a lot of sticking points and that the panes are required in rather a hurry and especially knowing that this project has already been delayed extraordinarily beyond the original time frame , there still seems to be no special effort and no special measures to counter all these extenuating circumstances !

parallel negotiations would have the advantage such that if one of them tries any tricks we could merely increase the volume via the other

.....that way we achieve our purchasing requirements for defence and give a strong warning to the party that is not complying

also it help us spread the money and widen our contact with suppliers so that in case of emergencies we are not depending on one sole supplier

without this dual track approach, but depending on the French
only we are actually allowing them to hold us hostage at their will

i therefore question the wisdom of the goi's present arrangement of relying solely on one supplier for a defence mater of such extreme importance and it makes me seriously wonder how they do management of such high value projects ?????

is there a sufficiently high level of lateral thinking in the ministry of defence ? or is it still infested with babu mentality ? people can give Namo rave reviews but in the end were are facing some rather lack-lustre performance in reality

@sgarg quoted below made a great point and it is to India's credit that indeed we know a great deal in dealing with russian aircraft , so even having the mig 35 at 50 % rafaels price could act as a sufficient carrot-stick effect to the sole supplier potential hostage position as i described earlier

there are times when goi does well and there are times when they make us wonder if they passed their school exams ..!

or


ref
@angeldude13 @bose @brational @blueblood @anupamsurey @ersakthivel @Blackwater @bengalraider @cobra commando @DingDong @Hari Sud @Kunal Biswas @LETHALFORCE @mhk99 @Neil @OneGrimPilgrim @pmaitra @Rowdy @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @Srinivas_K @sorcerer @TejasMK3 @Yusuf @jackprince @Bangalorean @indiandefencefan @aliyah @hit&run @VIP @Razor @Blood+ @Screambowl @Sylex21 @tsunami @Zebra @Rashna
when I saw the Tag, to be honest Mig 35 and Su35 were in my mind
 

archie

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This govt is also not serious on defence front. Hope to see some miracle
Good economy Support Good armed forces or the country wll go bankrupt.. just as soviet went broke (90% of soviet economy was related to military)

India is just waking up to defence manufacture and will take sometime not tomorrow or next month or even next year for that matter .. patience is the miracle :)
 

pmaitra

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@roma, you have made some valid points.

I believe India buying these 36 Rafales will actually keep all this haggling about ToT out of the picture, and India can receive those airplanes off the shelf, so to speak. Moreover, it will add to the diversity of our predominantly Russian and Soviet made combat airplanes. While we have most of our eggs in the Russian basket, it does little harm to get those 36 Rafales. Later on, we can use our experience with these Rafales to decide whether we want to put some more eggs in the French basket.
 

blueblood

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@roma , regardless of what we think or are told, there is no practical alternative to Rafale. In my mind only Super Hornet comes close which had it not been American was a good option.

There was a post in the MMRCA thread which calculated the difference in total cost (unit price+life cycle costs) between MKI and Rafale is upwards of $6 billion in 2011 dollars. This does not include the costs of having a second pilot or WSO.
 

Adioz

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Another short term option might be available (But it is a major compromise with capabilities for a period of time). Even so, what if the air force buys Mig 29Ks instead of Rafaels and transfers them over to the navy when the IAC-I and IAC-II are ready? By that time the air force will have more options available. e.g.:- HAL Tejas Mk3 or (hopefully) HAL AMCA.
 

sob

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what about the aircraft Boeing was pitching when they lost out to LM with F 35.

Boeing has spent lot of money on it and would be interested to recoup some investment.
 

Zebra

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what about the aircraft Boeing was pitching when they lost out to LM with F 35.

Boeing has spent lot of money on it and would be interested to recoup some investment.
Near impossible.

But nice video though.........


Uploaded on Mar 15, 2011, by 1909Pegasus
 

Zebra

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But not impossible and the only viable alternate at this moment.
If we are talking about 5th generation American aircraft, then what is wrong with F-35...!
 

blueblood

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@sob , you are talking about developing a F-35 equivalent on our own. We will go broke doing so. US chose the superior design among the two and we all know how it went.

In addition to that, it will kill rest of the programs. It is better to pester France about TOT than bankrupting ourselves in making something nobody wants or needs.

X-32 is the spiritual equivalent of F-20 Tigershark.
 
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sob

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If we are talking about 5th generation American aircraft, then what is wrong with F-35...!
I have no objection to it. In fact I would love to see it in IAF roundels.
 

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