Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

[sgarg]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Unfortunately, that is a part of air force job.



All these new weapons are neither good enough, nor smart enough to replace bomber.
In terms of special forces, how do you want them to go through that several hundreds miles to get their target? By walking?

I think IAF had Jaguar planes for this specific purpose.
The growth in Chinese capability has made Jaguar kind of obsolete.

Indians can use tactical ballistic missiles and cruise missile if these are accurate enough (which is a tall order).

India does not have UCAV capable of such a mission today and we have no idea when such capability will materialize.

So India will most likely use Mirage or Su-30 for the job. This is what India has.

I think India's reach in China is limited at this time to airbases in Tibet and logistics close to border areas.

But the advantage for China in attacking India is not there. India has a very large population and has strategic depth. If India has strong leader, it is unlikely that China will make any significant gain as the war will get very bloody. Ultimately it is about foot soldiers if land is defended or not.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

Many many long discussions are present on Rafale thread, which mostly discuss capabilities of other fighters like ET, Tejas Mk2 , Super Hornets etc.
These discussions are many times vastly off topic. Thus , Any alternative to Rafale deal should be discussed on another thread, ie this one.

A few alternatives to Rafale deal in a scenario it gets cancelled-

1. Get Eurofighter Typhoon instead of Rafale

2. Transfer the funds to LCA project- For faster development of Tejas Mk2

3. Order more Sukhoi 30 MKI instead of Rafale

Alternatives to reduce costs-

1. Increase order to 180+ , as a larger bulk order would reduce cost per Aircraft.

2. Decrease the order to 70-80 fighters, this would result in lower total cost, but higher cost per Aircraft.

 

[pramsin]

Many many long discussions are present on Rafale thread, which mostly discuss capabilities of other fighters like ET, Tejas Mk2 , Super Hornets etc.
These discussions are many times vastly off topic. Thus , Any alternative to Rafale deal should be discussed on another thread, ie this one.

A few alternatives to Rafale deal in a scenario it gets cancelled-

1. Get Eurofighter Typhoon instead of Rafale

2. Transfer the funds to LCA project- For faster development of Tejas Mk2

3. Order more Sukhoi 30 MKI instead of Rafale

Alternatives to reduce costs-

1. Increase order to 180+ , as a larger bulk order would reduce cost per Aircraft.

2. Decrease the order to 70-80 fighters, this would result in lower total cost, but higher cost per Aircraft.

Well best way to do is get after DRDO and make then work 24/7 in 3 shifts to design and produce 2 engine Super Tejus. We may get either Saab or Dassault to help us with that. Develop 2 prototype within 4 year. We have our own AESA radar and or other avionics. Since GTRE now has SCB technology. Push them to start not new core on war level or we can use 2 GE engines.
With experience of LCA and making fighter on same line should not take very long. It will be same little bit more sophisticated upgraded Tejus to carry same weapon load as Rafale and have same ease of switching the role from fighter interceptor to bomber. IAF can have aprox 250 to 275 fighters at same price what we will spend on Rafale.

 

[Zebra]

Many many long discussions are present on Rafale thread, which mostly discuss capabilities of other fighters like ET, Tejas Mk2 , Super Hornets etc.
These discussions are many times vastly off topic. Thus , Any alternative to Rafale deal should be discussed on another thread, ie this one.

A few alternatives to Rafale deal in a scenario it gets cancelled-

1. Get Eurofighter Typhoon instead of Rafale

2. Transfer the funds to LCA project- For faster development of Tejas Mk2

3. Order more Sukhoi 30 MKI instead of Rafale

Alternatives to reduce costs-

1. Increase order to 180+ , as a larger bulk order would reduce cost per Aircraft.

2. Decrease the order to 70-80 fighters, this would result in lower total cost, but higher cost per Aircraft.

What new things they have to develop now!

GE F-404 and GE F-414 both of them has same length and diameter, only they have to make sure the Tejas airframe get enough strength so that it can accommodate little heavy engine. If we look at dry weight, the difference is 74 kg. GE F-414 is heavier. That's about it.

And is that too hard for HAL?

The big problem here is the timeline, which timeline HAL/ADA/MoD gave to GE for supply of those engines.

So that GE can start their supply as per the schedule.

That timeline is very important and all depends on it.

 

[biswaranjanrath.sipu]

Frankly friends,I m not with the Rafale deal.it would be better if iaf will terminate the tender and go for more su 30 mki and LCA mk 2

 

[sgarg]

Honestly, best option is to order three more squadrons of Mig-29SMT (80 nos).
This makes up shortages in the North and West sectors and frees up Su-30 for the central and eastern sectors.

India should focus on building engine of Tejas locally which should be the highest priority item. The next priority should be AESA radar and weapons (A2A and A2G missiles). The manufacturing of these items will involve creating a lot of infrastructure in India which takes money.

 

[JBH22]

Scrap it.

Go for more SU-30Mki and LCA planes. For the medium segment we might consider adding few Mig-29 squadrons.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The best would be upgrade existing +200 SU-30MKI from best of west and east and let Tejas form the back bone of IAF ..

Keeping the variety of jets minimum is essential for IAF, To maintain both free-flow of supplies of spares and ease of training of pilots ..

Scrap it.

Go for more SU-30Mki and LCA planes. For the medium segment we might consider adding few Mig-29 squadrons.

 

[SajeevJino]

The best would be upgrade existing +200 SU-30MKI from best of west and east and let Tejas form the back bone of IAF ..

Keeping the variety of jets minimum is essential for IAF, To maintain both free-flow of supplies of spares and ease of training of pilots ..

I saw the Stratpost Round Table Video ..both Ex Air Force Chief and Air Marshals pointed out one thing

They won't do some Missions with Light Combat Aircraft , and the Heavy fighter Su 30 MKI .

they need something middle of that ..Mirage 2000 Matches well but now another good one there Rafale

also they need that fighter did higher Sorties . can simultaneously change their primary Missions . combat Proven

 

[Hari Sud]

Accelrate LCA -2 with outside help. Use funds I freed up from MMRCA to speed up LCA-2 development. Buy a new air to air refueller, new transport plane, AWACS, helicopters etc. These are also urgently needed.

Modernize and upgrade HAL operation; may be privatize it.

Retire those Air Marshals who are sold on Rafale or Eurofighter.

As a stop gap buy more SU-30mk1.

Bury the Rafale deal. Tell Eurofighter salesmen to get lost. If any of them wish to work deligently to develop LCA-2 into a twin engine plane, invite them. Otherwise godbye!

The best offer so far is from Grippen to develop LCA -2 in India for a price. That will be a better learning excessive.

 

[Kharavela]

I concur with the flowing sentiment of above posts. GOI should immediately scrap MMRCA & provide funds for LCA-Mk2. There is no task which Rafale can and a combination of Su-30MKI & LCA can't. Moreover, a single Rafale can't face 3-4 LCA (cost equivalent) on any theatre.
SAAB offer to develop LCA should be accepted & a second assembly line should be created for revving up production. Till second assembly line starts production, HAL shall continue to produce 8 LCA per annum.
IMO, 32 LCA should be produced per annum to fill the empty spaces of Mig21 (all variants) & Mirage (all variants) as quickly as possible.
Simultaneously, IAF should place order for more Su-30MKI to replenish its high-end fighter strength.

 

[biswaranjanrath.sipu]

Ya for making an 4.5 gen efficient fighter like LCA mk 2 india should outsource some tech but it has to develope the critical parts like aeroengine,aesa radar,ew suits,onbord computers and so on of its own.depending wholely on foreign nation is not a good choice .right now india is buying the major components like radar,engine, ew suit,glass cockpit, laser pod,pilot ejection seat,even a small rod for midair refuling(in-flight refueling pod) from foreign nation.this type of attitude of hal will not improve the capability of our country. So rather outsourcing all the vital component, they should try indigenous development of all the critical parts of LCA mk2 which is going to be main stay fighter of iaf

 

[Zebra]

I am not playing with words. I am just trying to have a conversation so that our ideas can converge, and looks like I have succeeded.

Just one small note: A fighter jet is not a motorcycle or a car. A routine maintenance in a car happens every several thousand miles. In a fighter jet, it happens after every sortie. A routine maintenance in a car does not require replacement of the engine. In a fighter jet, it might be required. When we drive a car, we don't gun the engine. In a fighter jet, the engine is gunned, and thereby, suffers extensive erosion, wear and tear.

I think @Kunal Biswas has explained it very well.

Now, coming back to this post, and the post you quoted therein, the more diversity we have in engines and fighters, the more challenging it becomes to keep these fighters operational. I am not saying we should not get something in between the Sukhoi-30 and the LCA. That is a separate debate altogether.

If you don't mind, shift appropriate posts in this thread. Please.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/military-aviation/64656-military-aircraft-maintenance-thread.html#post965011

 

[Zebra]

Ya for making an 4.5 gen efficient fighter like LCA mk 2 india should outsource some tech but it has to develope the critical parts like aeroengine,aesa radar,ew suits,onbord computers and so on of its own.depending wholely on foreign nation is not a good choice .right now india is buying the major components like radar,engine, ew suit,glass cockpit, laser pod,pilot ejection seat,even a small rod for midair refuling(in-flight refueling pod) from foreign nation.this type of attitude of hal will not improve the capability of our country. So rather outsourcing all the vital component, they should try indigenous development of all the critical parts of LCA mk2 which is going to be main stay fighter of iaf

Sir, as you requested, if they develop it and make it here too, then also they need buyer for it.

If no one buy it in good numbers then what is the point of developing it in India.

 

[pmaitra]

If you don't mind, shift appropriate posts in this thread. Please.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/military-aviation/64656-military-aircraft-maintenance-thread.html#post965011

If I shift those posts, then your first post in that new thread will no longer be the first post. Do you still want me to shift them?

 

[Zebra]

If I shift those posts, then your first post in that new thread will no longer be the first post. Do you still want me to shift them?

Yes, please.

 

[sgarg]

I concur with the flowing sentiment of above posts. GOI should immediately scrap MMRCA & provide funds for LCA-Mk2. There is no task which Rafale can and a combination of Su-30MKI & LCA can't. Moreover, a single Rafale can't face 3-4 LCA (cost equivalent) on any theatre.
SAAB offer to develop LCA should be accepted & a second assembly line should be created for revving up production. Till second assembly line starts production, HAL shall continue to produce 8 LCA per annum.
IMO, 32 LCA should be produced per annum to fill the empty spaces of Mig21 (all variants) & Mirage (all variants) as quickly as possible.
Simultaneously, IAF should place order for more Su-30MKI to replenish its high-end fighter strength.

I completely agree that LCA production should be ramped up to at least 30 per year.
However I do not agree with SAAB collaboration. I would prefer ADA to continue developing LCA Tejas. We have to take out the fear of Indian designed and Indian made products from Services mind.

ADA is already using imported engine (and radar) + imported weapons. What more SAAB will provide.

The manufacturing techniques are no secrets. The factories have to be set up and will need $$, not SAAB.

HAL suffers from poor work culture. People are good. The management and "govt tag" are the problems.

The government has already moved to explore manufacturing of Tejas Mark II by private sector.

 

[sgarg]

We have to set up an ecosystem for designing and manufacturing aircrafts in this country. This can happen only when there is a healthy competition between multiple Indian vendors.

DRDO should be allowed to designate a private company as its fabrication partner. PSUs are a millstone around DRDO's neck. DRDO takes all the bad press while the fact is the lack of industrial capability that hampers defence product development.

 

[sgarg]

IAF has urgent needs and only plane available to IAF today is Mig-29SMT. It is possible to order this plane where Russia can deliver 10 planes per year. Mig-29SMT is similar to upgraded Mig-29B which IAF is getting now. The price of Mig-29SMT is 1/3 of Rafale and it is quite adequate for airbases tasked with air defence against Pakistan.

Even Su-30 cannot be ramped up.

LCA Tejas production rate at 8 per year is not sufficient to fill the numbers needed by IAF.

People forget that IAF has multiple large programs running today which are capital intensive. IAF is acquiring 15 new Su-30 per year while also running upgrade programs for both fighters and transport aircrafts. IAF has also committed 20 IOC and 20 FOC Tejas Mark 1. Add to this purchases from USA. Rafale lovers forget that IAF budget is not unlimited.

 

[Android]

Rafael & su-30MKI dont lie in the same catogery of aircrafts as both of them have different roles as per IAF,so dont think so IAF agree to replace su30mki for rafael, but LCA mk2 could be a game changer which is said to be on par with rafael or a bit lower.
*LAC has to be taken seriouly and more fund has to be allocated, because till date it has cost just $1.5bill, no country can build an aircraft for such a low amount,double to thriple of that amount is spent just on research in the west.
*Improve the work culture in HAL ,though one cant blame hal for this as ADA was the designer,but they had seemed incompetent at many occasions.
*Put more money in kaveri engine development,as it was rejected because of it's weight ,but still could produce 83kn of force which was on par with GE-f404,plan to have a 95kn engine on par with GE f414 isn't impossible,if we had can achieve 83,then we can achieve 95kn aswell,provided the funds are released,because no turbo engine can be made in less than a billion $,govt needs to spend money wisely we are no china sitting on $4trillion of reserves,and neither can we allow any country to milk us in broad day light. Though i personally am not in favour of rafael if it costs $25-30billion which still have uncertainity over ToT provided.