Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

sgarg

New Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
Rafale is NOT in LCA Tejas category. Rafale per hour cost is almost four time LCA Tejas cost. Rafale is firmly in Su-30 or even higher category as far as cost of operations goes.

IAF classification by weight is an arbitrary classification.

The important characteristics of a fighter are war load capacity, range etc.

The long range air defence and strike missions that a Rafale will perform can be done by Su.30 also.
 

Zebra

New Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2011
Messages
6,060
Likes
2,303
Country flag
Actually only 'alternatives to Rafale' won't help India to improve IAF squadron strength.

They have to think something more.

They have to stop useless expenditures and utilise it in much wiser way to achieve better results.
 

sgarg

New Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
@Casper, I agree that IAF has to fill spots vacated by retiring Mig-21 and Mig-27 fighters.

There is a certain minimum number that you put in an airbase. Air defence dictates that airbases are less than 200 km apart, not more. So numbers are important too. India needs a certain number of squadrons below which air defence will be affected.

IAF will divide its squadrons into two parts (use half squadron at each airbase) if it has a lower number. But it is not ideal due to a number of factors.

The number of 42 squadrons (or a bare minimum of 38) has been arrived after careful consideration of the situation. The fact is even 42 number leaves the southern part of India unprotected, and there is a shortage for strategic purpose.

The main argument against Rafale is its high cost. It is a good aircraft, no doubt about that, but high cost prevents buying it in adequate numbers.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

sgarg

New Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
One squadron of Mig-29SMT costs less than one billion dollar. If India buys 4 more squadrons of Mig-29, it is 4 billion dollars. Mig-29 can be supported with EXISTING industrial infrastructure. This is a big plus for Mig-29.

We have no existing industrial infrastructure for supporting Rafale. Creating such infrastructure is very expensive and time consuming. Such an exercise is not appropriate for the crisis situation now created in IAF.
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
New Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,041
IAF Operational Failures in Retrospect

Indian Air Warriors, serving and veterans, are fiercely proud of the Indian Air Force (IAF), and the nation is proud and indebted to the IAF for the selfless service of its personnel.

Operationally, the IAF has an unblemished record, having successfully defended Indian airspace through five post independence wars. Hundreds of IAF personnel have laid down their lives over the years, during operations and while training for operations.

Yet, as many senior IAF officers would readily admit in private, the IAF's operational record hasn't been outstanding. The record has been profusely criticized and questioned in internet debates, though its rare to see a critical discourse in the mainline press. Institutions like the IAF - much like our parents, teachers, and leaders - rise in our esteem even as they fumble and falter in their endeavors - because their cause is noble!

Was the IAF well equipped and trained for the wars in 1965, 1971 and 1999? Was the IAF's performance exemplary during these conflicts? An honest answer to both the questions would have to be - No.

Based on 20 years service in the IAF as a fighter pilot, close tracking of IAF affairs since then and discussions with IAF veterans, I am inclined to believe that the IAF's operational record was non stellar on account of


# A defensive tactical mindset that led to force imbalance.
# Lack of Long Term Vision
# Aversion to steering its projects with HAL and DRDO

=====


Past Force Imbalance

Like any other air force, the IAF is equipped for both offense and defense. Ideally, the IAF should be able to prevent enemy aircraft from intruding into our airspace, while being able to strike targets within enemy territory at will. Currently, the IAF's MiG-21 variants, MiG-29, Mirage 2000 and Su-30MKI fighters protect our skies, while MiG-27, Jaguar, Su-30MKI and Mirage strike fighters give us the ability to strike the enemy. (Note that aircraft such as Su-30MKI or Mirage-2000 are capable of both AD as well as strike.)

The right mix of AD and strike aircraft (force balance) is dictated by threat perception and war aims.

Post independence, the IAF did very well in acquiring a balanced force with a mix of bombers, fighter bombers and fighters. The IAF acquired B-24 Liberator heavy bombers by refurbishing US WW-2 aircraft abandoned in India. It bought Vampire fighters and fighter bombers from England. The later acquisition made the IAF the only Asian Air Force equipped with jet fighters at that time. The IAF was then a small force but with a good strike potential.

A decade later, in 1957, the IAF started inducting Dassault Mystere IVA, Hawker Hunter and English Electric Canberra, more or less maintaining its force balance.

The Canberra, which could carry 10,000-lb bomb load in internal bay, providing the IAF the ability to hit the enemy hard.

IAF acquisitions started to become disorientated and aircraft centric, instead of mission centric, in the early 60s. Pure interceptors, like the Folland Gnat and MiG-21 were acquired in large numbers, adding greatly to the inventory but not to the IAF's punch.

The 1965 war caught the IAF in the midst of rapid expansion triggered by the mauling of the Indian Army at the hands of the PLA in 1962. New aircraft were in the process of being inducted and pilot training was being rushed. The IAF was ill prepared for the war and suffered very heavy aircraft losses in the east and didn't do too well in the west.

The late sixties saw the IAF's strike capability diminish as Mystere squadrons started to be phased out. The Marut HF-24 fighter bomber project made fitful progress. An attempt to fill the gap with the Su-7 fighter bombers acquired from Russia proved misguided because the aircraft had a limited bomb load, and and even more limited range!

In the autumn of 1968, the IAF comprised 23 fighter squadrons and three tactical bomber squadrons. Eleven of the 23 fighter squadrons were equipped with MiG-21s and Gnats, both pure interceptors with very limited ranges that made them incapable of performing escort role. The remaining fighter squadrons were equipped with Hunter, Mystere and Marut strike aircraft with limited weapon loads and ranges.

Lacking long range interceptors or aerial refueling capability the IAF could not provide escort cover to its Canberra tactical bombers so as to use them to strike high value targets inside enemy territory..

Bottom line: Despite possessing an impressive number of combat fighter and bomber squadrons, the IAF failed to deter the PAF's pre-emptive strike on Indian air bases on December 3, 1971. And when the war did break out, the IAF couldn't go out and hit the enemy hard. It confined its operations largely to supporting the Indian Army.

True, the focus of the 1971 war was on liberating Bangladesh, but the IAF's defensive posture following the PAF's pre-emptive strike stemmed more from limitations of its force balance than policy dictated restrain. The Navy, for example, went out and boldly struck Karachi harbor with missile boats in a fine display of purpose and innovation.

From the late sixties to the late eighties, the IAF's force structure got increasingly skewed with more and more MiG-21 variants being inducted. Four Jaguar squadrons acquired in the early eighties were inadequate replacement for the Canberras and Hunters that bowed out of service.

In the early eighties, the number of MiG-21 variant squadrons in the IAF exceeded 20. Some MiG-21 squadrons were assigned strike role despite the very limited punch of the aircraft.

The IAF's enfeeblement was dramatic, yet no one in the IAF leadership seemed to notice.

There emerged a complete disconnect between the threat faced by the nation and the IAF's force structure.

The IAF equipped and trained itself to fight in the west even though it was clear that any hostilities would take place along the LOC or LAC.

IAF Jaguars were too underpowered to operate effectively in the mountain valleys along the LAC and LOC. MiG-21 variants lacked the range, weapon load and precision attack capability to effectively engage targets in the harsh mountainous terrain.

The dangerous drift in the IAF's force structure was checked with the induction Mirage-2000s, and to a lesser extent MiG-29s. The inductions proved fortuitous when Kargil happened in 1999. The IAF was shockingly unprepared for the war, much more so than in the earlier wars! There was no reason why that should have been the case!

The Mirage-2000 was the only IAF aircraft that gave a good account of itself during Kargil, and that too after hurried and very expensive acquisition of Precision Guided Munitions (PGMs) from abroad.

What if Kargil hadn't happened? Instead the PLA had made a deep incursion into Arunachal Pradesh? The incursion would have caught the IAF as helpless as it was in 1962, and it's conceivable that by now China would have been inaugurating a rail link between Lhasa and Tawang!

Past government and IAF leaders collectively share the blame for what went wrong.

=====


Making Amends

Post Kargil, with the steady accretion of the Su-30MKI fleet, the IAF started to acquire a more offensive posture that could deter determined adversaries like Pakistan and China. It will take another decade for the transformation to be complete; in terms of equipment and in terms of mindset.

Why did the IAF not stick with the balanced posture that it started with? Why did it assume such a defensive posture?

There was never a sourcing issue.The country was under no political compulsion to procure its weapons from the Soviet Union, now Russia. Despite periodic strains in Indo-US relations, India always had access to French and British weapons. The IAF could have sourced Mirage-III and Mirage-V fighters from France; Tornados from the UK.

It could even have procured Su-24 Fencer or Tu-22 Blinder from Russia. Both aircraft have impressive weapon loads and the ability to carry stand-off missiles.

I think the answer lies in limited budgets and a quest for numbers over quality.

Ironically, one of the lessons that the IAF had drawn from an analysis of its subpar performance in the 1965 war was the need for quality over quantity. It totally forgot the lesson.
Lack of Long Term Vision


Post independence, the IAF fought four wars in quick success - Kashmir 1947, China 1962, Pakistan 1965, Pakistan 1971 - with no breather to formulate a long term vision.

In the years that followed, successive governments tightly embraced a defensive posture, focused on head butting defense of India's territorial integrity in Kashmir, Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh. The posture defied the lessons of military history - that there is no perfect defense. Bar Lev line, Maginot line and Chittorgarh fort were all breached by enemy grit and determination.

A defensive posture doesn't deter an enemy as much as it tempts him. An adversary is better dissuaded by a military posture laden with unpredictable consequences for any breach of peace!

In terms of air power, such a posture would have to be based on a formidable strike force combined with long range and endurance AD fighters. Fighters that can defend our skies by remaining airborne for hours, not minutes; and escort our hard hitting strike aircraft deep into enemy territory!

As a result of its defensive posture, IAF aircraft procurements in the decades that followed the 1971 war led to an enfeeblement of its strike capability. The IAF regressed into a tactical air force equipped for just homeland defense and Close Air Support (CAS) of Army operations. Inevitably, the Army and the Navy started to encroach on IAF turf using the logic that the Army would be better able to support ground operations if it controlled CAS assets.

The Indian Navy eased the IAF out of the maritime reconnaissance (MR) role (In the 1960s the IAF operated a squadron of ex-Air India L. 1049G Super Constellations for maritime reconnaissance.) and even suggested that it was better equipped than the IAF for AD of its ports!

Most glaringly, the IAF equipped and trained in total disregard of its responsibility to support Army operations along the LOC and LAC. As a result, Kargil happened.

=====


Aircraft Centric

Since its inception, the IAF has remained an aircraft centric force, while the west has moved on to a weapon and sensor centric planning. The US Navy isn't worried that its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet aircraft would get clobbered by a Su-30M in WVR combat. It looks upon the Super Hornet as a system, not just an aircraft. A system with the range, sensors and weapons to


# Penetrate heavily defended airspace by jamming and spoofing enemy radars using its powerful AESA radar.
# Identify and attack a Su-30M well before the Su-30M can see it.
# Perform a precision attacks against ground target, even moving, from stand-off ranges.


(The Super Hornet is optimized for transonic operations, not WVR combat. It can hit a Su-30M and make a safe getaway staying well out of harm's way throughout the engagement.)

The US Navy considers the Super Hornet the finest long range precision attack platform that is capable of defending itself against any ground or aerial threat. It's a simple, clear and effective vision!

The IAF, which is largely trained for WVR combat and equipped with unguided bombs and unguided rocket, is horrified by the Super Hornet's high wing loading and limited reserve of power. The aircraft's sensors and AESA are of little use without BVR missiles and stand-off PGM.

The limitations of IAF's aircraft centric approach were evident during the Kargil war in 1999. IAF Mirages were capable of operating at high altitudes and delivering laser guided bombs, but the service had not invested in the bombs or the supporting equipment!

=====

Taking Ownership of IAF Projects

A serious shortcoming of the IAF in the past has been the failure to take ownership of its projects with HAL and DRDO.

The IAF did involve itself with both the organizations during their early years. It deputed senior officers to head projects and sit on management boards. Four IAF Chiefs - Aspy Merwan Engineer (1960-1964), Pratap Chandra Lal (1969-1973), Om Prakash Mehra (1973-1976) and Lakshman Mohan Katre (1984-1985) - served with the HAL on deputation before reaching the top. Many senior IAF officers took up senior management assignment in these organization post retirement.

However, the IAF's involvement failed to yield results. HAL and DRDO performance remained as good or bad under IAF leadership as under civil leadership; IAF officers' attempts to push Air Force projects were frustrated by the laid back work culture in these organizations, unionism, and proclivity to inflate claims and fudge figures.

Air warriors across the spectrum were dismayed by HAL/DRDO product shortcomings and poor quality Shoddy HAL workmanship resulted in many accidents and heart wrenching loss of lives.

The IAF's involvement steadily waned to an extent where the service was only deputing junior level pilots and engineers, to test fly aircraft and provide operational inputs for systems under development. The feedback provided by the junior level officer at the end of their deputations to HAL and DRDO was ignored by the IAF as being inconsequential.

The indifference didn't come from any policy change, it was just something that happened.

MoD's apathy allowed the estrangement to grow to an extent where IAF leadership started to look upon HAL as an evil that it had to live with.

It's moot whether the IAF could have handled its relationship with HAL and DROD differently. The bottom line is: The estrangement hurt the IAF and so the IAF shouldn't have let it happen.

One wonders what a vigorous HAL-IAF and DRDO-IAF partnerships could have yielded? Perhaps


# Laser guided kits for bombs well before the Kargil war?
# A landing assist system for MiG-21 variants that could have saved hundreds of aircraft and scores of lives lost during landing accidents? (Remember the autothrottle on the SAAB Viggen, an aircraft of similar vintage.)
# A super-stall prevention system for MiG-21 variant that could have further reduced accidents?
# A terrain avoidance radar for Jaguar?
# Modifications of Canberra as tanker?

=====


Looking Ahead
An institution like the Indian Air Force is akin to a citadel that can remain strong despite decades of neglect. However, despite standing strong, a neglected citadel does lose its sheen and glory over the years; a loss that can be very difficult to reverse.

What is encouraging is that the IAF has left its past behind with recent changes in its operational posture, credit for which must go to IAF leaders post the 1999 Kargil war.

Recent acquisitions - Su-30MKIs, Aerial Refuelers, AWACS - and planned procurements - MMRCA, Tejas LCA, LCA Mk-1, FGFA - will correct the force imbalance. And the IAF is acquiring a long term vision and starting to take ownership of its projects with HAL and DRDO.



One squadron of Mig-29SMT costs less than one billion dollar. If India buys 4 more squadrons of Mig-29, it is 4 billion dollars. Mig-29 can be supported with EXISTING industrial infrastructure. This is a big plus for Mig-29.

We have no existing industrial infrastructure for supporting Rafale. Creating such infrastructure is very expensive and time consuming. Such an exercise is not appropriate for the crisis situation now created in IAF.
 

Kharavela

New Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2013
Messages
519
Likes
799
Country flag
I completely agree that LCA production should be ramped up to at least 30 per year.
However I do not agree with SAAB collaboration. I would prefer ADA to continue developing LCA Tejas. We have to take out the fear of Indian designed and Indian made products from Services mind.
ADA is already using imported engine (and radar) + imported weapons. What more SAAB will provide.
Sir, by the phrase "SAAB offer to develop LCA" I did not meant SAAB as a design consultant, but a production vendor (in JV with one Indian private sector copany).
The manufacturing techniques are no secrets. The factories have to be set up and will need $$, not SAAB.
HAL suffers from poor work culture. People are good. The management and "govt tag" are the problems.
The government has already moved to explore manufacturing of Tejas Mark II by private sector.
I completely agree with you. :thumb:
 

sgarg

New Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
Companies like Tata, Mahindra with a long experience in manufacturing and stability are better for producing defence equipment in aviation area. These will be long gestation projects and the company will be expected to brave the ups and downs and also provide foundation for further development of new fighters.

Let us see how this story develops. I would not be too keen on SAAB or any other such joint venture. Any identified company for LCA Tejas manufacture will also get involved in a lot of DRDO projects in future, so a foreign partner can actually become a liability.
 

ersakthivel

Brilliance
New Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,764
Country flag
I saw the Stratpost Round Table Video ..both Ex Air Force Chief and Air Marshals pointed out one thing

They won't do some Missions with Light Combat Aircraft , and the Heavy fighter Su 30 MKI .

they need something middle of that ..Mirage 2000 Matches well but now another good one there Rafale

also they need that fighter did higher Sorties . can simultaneously change their primary Missions . combat Proven
Saurav jha has tweeted asking for comparison trials of upgraded mirage-2000 against tejas mk1.

All these Imported Airforce chair marshals were doing in round table vayu startpost is calling tejas mk1 les capable than mig-21 and it should be scrapped straight away to the amazement of naval admirals in the conference.

china is going to have more than 3000 jets close to 2000 of being 4 to 4.5 the gen flankers and j-10 s and other mig-29 clones.

The 126 rafales at 20 billion dollars which neither have a bigger radar than any one of the PLAF 2000 third gen planes nor has a stealth air frame is just a drop in the ocean, which is cleverly concealed by our chair marshals dumping on tejas in the conference.

Numbers are numbers. All chinese fighters will have a decent ASEA and 100 plus Km range BVR missiles in 2020. What is the advantage of 126 rafales against such a force.

Against china numbers are what counts , nothing else. recent AVM Arjun subramanium's article is another stupid example of this folly by IAF. He calls mirage-2000 along with Su-30 MKi willfor m the front line while tejas along with hawk will do some scavenging!!!,

tejas 1 and mk2 are by no means legacy platforms.The present CAS has said that tejas is a welcome addition to IAF's fighting capacity. I dont remember any airchief calling it a legacy platform. Even PV Naik said that once tejas finishes FOC it will be a true multi role 4.5th gen fighter in the gripen class .

Upgraded mirage-2000s will have a far lower range BVR missile than both tejas mk1 and mk2 along with 10 and 30 percent lower Thrust to weight ratio compared to tejas mk1 and mk2 respectively.So how come it become a non legaacy platform while tejas which has better Thrust to Weight ratio and lower wing loading than Mirage-2000 become legacy fighter?

Grouping tejas with useless hawk and jag shows the article is not reflecting the true ground reality.It is surprising to see high IAF officials routinely indulging in this hate mongering on tejas, whether the recently held Vayu stratpost conference or this article they never fail to mention that tejas is just a mig-21 replacement or it should be closed down or it is a legacy platform!!!!But test pilot accounts are so different from their views!!!!


So it is quiet surprising to hear that while 5 decades old Mig-29s and Mirage-2000s are supposed to be cutting edge frontline fighters tejas is called a legacy platform.Tejas has a bigger radome dia than rafale to fit any future higher powered ASEA radars.

Legacy means older designs.In that case it is the rafale which is older in design than both Tejas mk1 and mk2.And once china inducts J-20 and J-31 the 20 billion dollar rafale will be a true legacy platform designed in the 1980s with no stealth 5th gen airframe concepts in mind.

People are free to support any fighter of their choice for MMRCA, but that doesn't mean one has to stick a legacy label on tejas, mk2 of which is yet to fly.how come a fighter that hasn't even flown become a legacy platform?

I thought ASRs were issued with certain capability aims. It is the first time I hear that MMRCA was selected for coercive capability to affect the mind of adversary as per the words of our AVM subramanium!!!!

The chair marshal does not even know that Suneeth krishna the award wining test pilot who has flown both tejas and Mirage-2000 says "in its present form ,(i.e before FOC) tejas mk1 is atleast equal to upgraded mirage-2000", which is upgraded at 45 million dollars per plane at almost twice the cost of tejas mk1!!!!.

NTSE chief Pervez Khokar has already said that "in key respects tejas scores above mirage-2000", So who is lying here?

A thrust to weight ratio of 1.07(at half fuel load close combat config with two IR missiles),
wing loading lowest among contemporary fighters,
clean config RCS less than 0.3 sq meter a radar bigger than that of rafale ,
AN ASEA radar getting ready with 100 Km tracking range,(astra mk1 with 80 km range and mk2 with 100 plus km range will be the main BVR missiles of tejas, even if the russians refuse their 100 plus Km range BVR missile integration as reported for tejas )
long lasting composite air frame,
relaxed static stability airframe with excellent ,
reliable four channel digital fly by wire tech , flawlessly flight tested utpo 27 deg AOA for twelve years with 2800 incident free sorties,
can take off from high altitude himalayan air fields with meaningful loads(4 of the 6 multi billion dollar MMRCA birds failed to do so from Leh during MMRCA evaluation),
A reliable GE engine,

IAF is spending 45 million dollar per plane for Mirage-2000 upgrade which after the upgrade will have none of the above mentioned tech and specs of tejas mk1'.

IAF group captain and award winning test pilot Suneeth krishna who has extenively flown both tejas mk1 and mirage-2000 has publicly stated that that tejas mk1 is "at least equal to mirage-2000".


See the aeroindia 2013 vedio. tejas was under IOC limit of 20 deg AOA and 6 G limit. ALSo tejas LSP had close to half a ton of flight test telemetry equippment on board at that time leading to excess weight, It completed a vertical loop within 20 seconds. rafale too completed the same vertical loop at the same twenty seconds.

Now tejas flight envelope has expanded to 27 deg AOA and 8 plus Gs according to Saurav jha's tweet.Even after FOC LSP 8 will be used to further expand the flight envelope to low 30 plus deg AOA accordign to Suneeth krisha the chief test pilot of tejas. And these fly by wire software upgrade of LSP-8 will be ported on to other SPs as well.

Can AVM subramanium guarantee that "his front line upgraded mirage-2000(45 million dollar per piece upgrade!!!)" complete a vertical loop in a time less than 20 seconds at aeroindia 2013 altitude and temperature conditions?

Trusting the words of Import MMRCA lobby in IAF will lead to dangerous artificial shortfall of IAF squadron strength in the near immediate future.

SO Modi govt should do the decent thing by ordering 300 plus tejas mk1 and mk2 with two more production lines for immediate replacement of all the obsolete jags, mig-21s, 27s, mirage-2000s , and pool its resources on AMCA project and FGFA.

Give a mark 2 LCA a good AESA radar and a system similar to DAS (present HMDS is also good enough, thats why IAF has asked dassault for the same combo of HMDS enabled visually cued high off bore sight WVR missile R73 E integration on rafale as well)and it would probably beat any Rafale out of the sky !


The fuel fraction (percentage of weight of fuel divided by eight of the fully loaded fighter)is what determines the range of the fighter. The ferry range of all fighters like Mig-29, RAFALE Mirage-Tejas which all have varying weights is more or less the same.So for normal combat loads with normal fuel config they will all have normal ranges. Also a fully indigenous produced Su-30 MKI is already available for long range bombing. Then what is the need for medium range RAFALE which will have 10 or twenty percentage range advantage over tejas mk-2 at a huge forex outgo of 20 billion dollars? Also FGFA is slated to come in in a decade. Then what role will RAFALE do which can not be performed by combination of tejas mk-2, SU-30 MKI(upgraded to super sukhoi status) and tejas mk-2? So this medium class is totally unnecessary classification designed to fool the inexperienced political leadership and aviation enthusiasts.


If more weapon weight is needed we can use two tejas mk-2s in place of one RAFALE if both have the same range .The real question is what does IAF gain by inducting so called 20 ton class RAFALE as a meium weight fighter ?The french are standardizing on on all RAFALE fighter force with twin engined 20 ton RAFALEs Meanwhile russians are standardizing on 30n ton twin engined PAKFA and Su-35, The US is inducting single engined F-35 in large scale. Unlike IAF the above mentioned airforces need to fly long distances to fight the enemy. It is not the case with IAF.Where most of the targets are well with in short range. And when it comes to air defence of Indian airspace tejas mk-2 will have no shortfalls compared to RAFALE on account of range or weapon load. Also work is already going on ASEA radar miniaturization and LRDE has fair experience in it.

And we are no longer under crippling western sanctions so we will find partners on that count with no restrictions. Even RAFALE has just put on ASEA radar for trials. We don't how fully developed it really is PAF is going for 120 light class Jf-17, are all these airforces buy any light medium or heavy fighter that is missing from their fleet from any third country? Certainly they won't do such a stupid thing . Fuel fraction (weight of fuel/loaded weight for normal combat sorties in design weapon loads)determines the range not the fighter being named light or heavy. if tejas mk-2 has same fuel fraction as RAFALE it will also have th same range. Most probably it will end up ten to twenty percent shortage in range nothing big, Also we can employ three tejas mk-2 with 15 ton weapon loads with same radar diameter and long range BVR missiles of RAFALE for the cost of one RAFALE.


So no shortage when it comes to weapon load. Infact tejas mk-2s will deliver double the weapon load with three times more sensor capability if costs are taken into account MMRCA contract originated as a proposal to buy 126 Mirage -2000 in the late 90s. To avoid the single vendor situation GOI asked it to be a global tender in 2004. Before that there was no long felt need in IAF for so called 20 ton medium weight fighter. tejas mk-2 will have at the most a twenty percent shortage when it comes to weapon load and range requirements over RAFALE.

But ordering a few more squadrons of very low priced(because of the 100 percent indigenization) Su-30 MKIs in super Sukhoi versions or increasing the numbers of FGFA to by a few squadrons will be equal to having RAFALEs. Certainly there is no such thing that Su-30 MKi, Tejas mk-2 and FGFA combine can't do that RAFALE can!!!


If you spend the same 20 to 30 billion (considering high maintanece cost)in the two coming decades on such tejas mk-2 and and a few extra squads of FGFA or Su-30 MKI IAF can improve its attcaking capability in a substantial manner. We can have more than 300 fighters in such combo compared to just 126 RAFALEs for the same cost. Also the MMRCA contract was changed form life cycle cost based buy to per unit fly away cost mid way.

And the winner Dassault which entered the competition knowing well that the HAL is to be its local partner is saying HAL is unfit for the job. if a a no experience private sector firm gets chosen by dassault as local partners then all the TOT norms go for a toss. The MMRCA was not an original need . It was born from the 126 Mirage-2000 buy proposal which was shot down because of single vendor situation by MOD in 2004 , thus it became MMRCA. If MOD promptly accepted the 126 mirage-2000 buy from IAF there would be no MMRCA.
 
Last edited:

sgarg

New Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
"Quote Originally Posted by SajeevJino View Post
I saw the Stratpost Round Table Video ..both Ex Air Force Chief and Air Marshals pointed out one thing

They won't do some Missions with Light Combat Aircraft , and the Heavy fighter Su 30 MKI .

they need something middle of that ..Mirage 2000 Matches well but now another good one there Rafale

also they need that fighter did higher Sorties . can simultaneously change their primary Missions . combat Proven"

IAF has Mirage-2000 which is being upgraded at a huge cost of $45M per plane. IAF also has Mig-29 which is a 2 engine medium range plane. Let IAF use these two planes for these "undefined" tasks.

Let the future be in the hands of LCA and FGFA, both of which will be manufactured in India.

I have mapped on Google Earth and it is clear that LCA Tejas is sufficient for operations in the vicinity of border all around India. It covers all of Pakistan and all of Sri Lanka. It can be deployed in numbers. LCA Tejas can be made like Mig-21 in 500-600 units and it can fill up all those airbases which are critical for air defence but are lying empty for years due to lack of planes.

The elitist stranglehold on IAF and IA must be broken if these services have to perform. IA similarly needs wheeled APCs or AFVs which are needed for mobility in mountains. The vehicle is designed but IA has some undefined problem.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 18, 2014
Messages
76
Likes
15
I believe that Indian private companies can help more effectively to the tejas programme than Saab . they have lots of talent and capabilities but they must be given some chance to work with hal.
 

sgarg

New Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
The question is what happens to IAF's force planning if MMRCA tender is cancelled?

I am sure GOI is working on it. It is a question of finding alternatives. If IAF does not want Mig-29, then solution will be found in ramping up LCA, inducting more Su-30, and upgrading existing platforms and keeping them longer.

The Mig-29 fleet is undergoing upgradation now. Mirage-2000 is also undergoing upgradation. Most likely Jaguar will receive new engines. More Jaguars can be built if IAF agrees.

Gap filling like 20 more Mig-29SMT for covering attrition is always possible and will probably happen.

GOI may approve one more Mig-29K squadron for Navy. The naval aviation will get more focus if IAF continues to give headaches to GOI.
 

sgarg

New Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
India is left behind in fifth generation fighter race. India's own AMCA is only in the starting design phase. No such aircraft is available from foreign sources except the current effort with Russia.

What to do with an air force that prefers a fourth generation plane over a fifth generation plane?

The engine is not the only factor. IAF cannot maintain very expensive equipment as it has neither expertise nor culture. IAF is always making excuses in maintenance of aircrafts.
 

Kharavela

New Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2013
Messages
519
Likes
799
Country flag
India Losing Patience With Dassault, May Cancel Deal & Order More Su-30 MKI's

India may order more Su-30MKI fighters as the squadron strength of the Indian Air Force (IAF) has dipped to 25 and negotiations with Dassault over Rafale fighter sale tether on the brink of collapse.

For the first time since negotiations with Dassault began three years ago, Indian MoD officials have been quoted by various local media that there is the real possibility of the talks collapsing. The issues over which the talks are deadlocked include cost escalation, transfer of technology and Dassault not wanting to assume responsibility for the aircraft assembled by HAL in India.

Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar had earlier this week this told journalists that his French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian had offered to send an 'empowered' team to take forward the negotiations. In Indian bureaucratic talk, an empowered person is someone who has been given the authority to take decisions. What this could mean is that Dassault teams negotiating with India may be frequently consulting with their top management in Paris leading to delays.

Parrikar did not specify these difficulties at a press conference in New Delhi, but tellingly stated that additional licence-built Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighters would be "adequate" for the Indian Air Force (IAF) in the event of the Rafale deal being scrapped.

"The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force's needs," Parrikar said, adding that at INR3.58 billion (USD59.66 million) each, the unit cost of the Su-30MKIs being licence-built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was less than half that of a Rafale. At present IAF has about 200 Sukhoi- 30 fleet, which represents almost a third of the country's fighter plane fleet.

A top government official told that under existing rules, there was no scope for the Eurofighter consortium, backed by four European countries, including UK, to re-enter the race to sell its Typhoon fighters to India. The Germany-led consortium had come up with a revised proposal — sweetened with a discount — to sell 126 Typhoons to India.

What may be egging the Indian MoD to order more Sukhoi fighters is revealed in a recently report of the Parliamentary Standing Committee (PSC) on Defence. The PSC report has for the first time pointed out that the squadron strength of the IAF has come down to 25 from the sanctioned strength of 45. The IAF and MoD had all along maintained that the current strength is 32 squadrons with each squadron comprising of around 18 aircraft.

"Moreover, 14 of these squadrons are equipped with MiG-21s and MiG-27s, which will retire between 2015 and 2024.

defencenews.in/defence-news-internal.aspx?id=7JTxVrgKgNc=
 

sam29

New Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
29
Likes
8
Country flag
Many many long discussions are present on Rafale thread, which mostly discuss capabilities of other fighters like ET, Tejas Mk2 , Super Hornets etc.
These discussions are many times vastly off topic. Thus , Any alternative to Rafale deal should be discussed on another thread, ie this one.

A few alternatives to Rafale deal in a scenario it gets cancelled-

1. Get Eurofighter Typhoon instead of Rafale

2. Transfer the funds to LCA project- For faster development of Tejas Mk2

3. Order more Sukhoi 30 MKI instead of Rafale

Alternatives to reduce costs-

1. Increase order to 180+ , as a larger bulk order would reduce cost per Aircraft.

2. Decrease the order to 70-80 fighters, this would result in lower total cost, but higher cost per Aircraft.
My opinion would be more su-30mki
Super sukois with mig-29 smt .it has now became very imperative that we should have a sizeable fighter fleet 100 fighter fully dedicated to navy and 800 fully for iaf now tejas is still far away in getting FOC so by 2020 india should have additional 200fighter replacing mig 21-27 we have good technical expertise with su30 n mig-29 both so these could be best option ,atleast 75-75 each and 50 tejas mk1.
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
New Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,041
Simply 250 Tejas & Early induction of 270 AMCA under current technology ..
 

ezsasa

Designated Cynic
New Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
32,663
Likes
151,106
Country flag
Add 50% to 126 planned number, split the new number between su-30(with aesa) and mig 29 I.e about 90 each . Use the remaining funds in LCA MK2 and AMCA.
 

arnabmit

Homo Communis Indus
New Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
6,245
Likes
7,531
Country flag
Alternate private assembly line for Tejas under works. MkI would be churned out in numbers from this one as well as the one at HAL.

100+ MkI to replace all Mig-21 variants, till the time MkII is ready by 2020.

Su-30MKI in additional numbers to replace Mig-27.
 

Screambowl

Ghanta Senior Member?
New Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2015
Messages
7,950
Likes
7,911
Country flag
That bird is definitely coming to India. No need to find an alternative. But yes, keep the delays in mind.
 

sorcerer

New Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
26,919
Likes
98,474
Country flag
Scrapping Rafale Deal in Favor of Su-30MKI Optimal for India: Think Tank

The Russian Su-30MKI surpasses the French Rafaele fighter in both quality and cost and will therefore better suit the Indian Air Force. Another reason for possible cancelling the contract with Paris could be Paris' failure to complete its obligation in the Mistral deal, which undermines France's reliability.
MOSCOW, January 12 (Sputnik) — Acquiring Russian-designed Sukhoi Su-30MKI instead of France's Rafale fighter aircraft would be the most beneficial option for India in terms of price and performance characteristics, a spokesman for the Center for Analysis of World Arms Trade (CAWAT) said Monday.

"If India chooses not to buy French Rafale fighter aircraft in favor of Russian Su-30MKI, it would be beneficial for the Indian side in every aspect. The tactical and technical characteristics of the Russian plane are much better than those of the French fighter jet," the spokesman said.

According to CAWAT, the price of the fighter jets is an important factor for the Indian Air Force, and "France nearly doubling the original price outlined in the contract does not meet current economic realities."

"India has established a logistics chain for servicing the Su-30MKI, which has been supplied by Russia earlier and manufactured in India under a [Russian] license," the spokesman said adding that the aircraft, which is a 4++ generation fighter, could be used to train Indian pilots for the use of the future fifth generation fighter aircraft.

France's suspension of the delivery of its Mistral-class helicopter carriers to Russia could also serve as a reason for India to doubt France's reliability in fulfilling obligations under arms contracts, including the Rafale deal, according to CAWAT.

"France's delay and a possible refusal to deliver the Mistrals to Russia will give a reason to doubt that this country is a reliable partner in the field of military-technical cooperation. It is possible that Paris, for whatever political reasons, may suspend the implementation of the Rafale delivery contract. Therefore, a decision by India to acquire Su-30MKI would be the best choice for the country," the spokesman said.


According to recent reports by local media, India could pull out of the $20 billion deal with France's Dassault Aviation company on the acquisition of 126 Rafale multirole fighter aircraft.

The Indian Defense Ministry is reportedly considering scrapping the deal over its high costs and Dassault's refusal to guarantee the performance of Rafale aircraft produced in India under transfer of technology agreements, seeing the Russian-designed Su-30MKI as a more sensible alternative.



Scrapping Rafale Deal in Favor of Su-30MKI Optimal for India: Think Tank / Sputnik International
 
Last edited:

dastan

New Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
506
Likes
194
Finally some sense prevails in MoD, more MkI's and tejas is the way forward :tup:
 

Articles

Top