Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

[Hari Sud]

Not much has emerged in these threads which can give confidence to the country that India has alternatives. It was probably French ploy to drag the conversation that long that, India is left with no alternatives but to buy Rafale. It was about to happen, had PM Manmohan Singh and AK Anthony were still around. They both were of the import and buy mood and would not have insisted too much on warranty on Indian made planes.

But now there is a new Sherrif in town and he has a highly skilled deputy as Defence Minister. They know their job well. Since IAF is not coming up with an alternative plan, which every organization keeps in its closet, (should the negotiations breakdown) it is pitiful that IAF is in quandary. As one of the post in the his thread says that two previous Air Marshall's have commented that some of the mission in war situation could not be performed except by Rafale or Typhoon, hence are they leaving the country defenceless? Or this is another pressure tactic to force Rafale down the nation's throat, even if it is a bad deal. How come when they were incharge, they never thought about the alternatives.

It would seem, no matter how much the keyboard warriors may talk, there is no alternative on the horizon. Nothing will emerge, as almost everything has been seen and rejected. If India is a bit defenceless or could not mount a strong offence in a war, then consider this - France has just idled 10,000 workers. Nobody else is ordering anymore Rafale. It is too expensive and in about ten years, stealth fighters would emerge from the shadow. All nations who could afford will be buying those and then Rafale will be idled.

So, cheers ........

 

[sgarg]

I am absolutely certain that only Indian designed weapons will ultimately save the day for India. Neither Russian nor Western weapons will win wars.

The most difficult job is to wean away India's elite from blind admiration of anything Western. Indian military needs reforms as its working philosophy has not changed for ages. India's adversaries have marched far ahead of India in every aspect.

Indian officer class is mired in wrong practices of the British Raj like using soldiers as domestic servant; and is unable to change itself.

The Rafale saga shows the same mentality of officer class where inducements from foreign governments trump national interests.

Rafale does not represent a serious increase in fighting power of the country while it represents a serious drain of national resources.

India needs to think clearly about how it wants to spend its money otherwise the military will still hand over a defeat despite some shining toys.

The fundamental things like bullets, ammunition, artillery, troop protection items etc. must be available in plenty before uber expensive planes are bought.

 

[Ray]

I am absolutely certain that only Indian designed weapons will ultimately save the day for India. Neither Russian nor Western weapons will win wars.

The most difficult job is to wean away India's elite from blind admiration of anything Western. Indian military needs reforms as its working philosophy has not changed for ages. India's adversaries have marched far ahead of India in every aspect.

Indian officer class is mired in wrong practices of the British Raj like using soldiers as domestic servant; and is unable to change itself.

The Rafale saga shows the same mentality of officer class where inducements from foreign governments trump national interests.

Rafale does not represent a serious increase in fighting power of the country while it represents a serious drain of national resources.

India needs to think clearly about how it wants to spend its money otherwise the military will still hand over a defeat despite some shining toys.

The fundamental things like bullets, ammunition, artillery, troop protection items etc. must be available in plenty before uber expensive planes are bought.

Could you dilate a wee but on your generalisations?

How will Rafale not enhance the fighting efficiency?

Do you have anything to replace it (even though the deal will be falling through if France does not meet its agreed obligations)?

Are you aware how many squadrons we are deficient of?

Do you think that the number of squadrons that are felt need were because of some British Raj mentality? Or having 'buddies', which you sadly mistake as 'domestic servants'. Do you think that in today's world you can use OR as 'servants'? Which era are you from?

Bullets, ammunition, artillery, troop protection items alone cannot win wars. It is time you shed your pre World War wrong notions. This is a modern age where joint and complementary operations alone will dictate the results on the battlefield.

 

[Kharavela]

How will Rafale not enhance the fighting efficiency?

Not a single air force uses Rafale except France. Does that mean FAF has enhanced fighting efficiency in comparison to all other air forces ??

Do you have anything to replace it (even though the deal will be falling through if France does not meet its agreed obligations)?

Are you aware how many squadrons we are deficient of?

Yes, India does have alternatives.
IAF have to go for 6 more Su-30 MKI squadrons apart from previously ordered 272 aircrafts & 10 squadrons LCA Tejas Mk-1 in total.

Do you think that the number of squadrons that are felt need were because of some British Raj mentality? Or having 'buddies', which you sadly mistake as 'domestic servants'. Do you think that in today's world you can use OR as 'servants'? Which era are you from?

Whether military or civilian, higher ranked officers tend to use sub-staffs as domestic helps. They are indeed treated as servants, not 'buddies' and is a reflection of colonial mentality.

You might recall a recent GOI advisory not to use sub-staff & class-IV employees as domestic help.

Bullets, ammunition, artillery, troop protection items alone cannot win wars. It is time you shed your pre World War wrong notions. This is a modern age where joint and complementary operations alone will dictate the results on the battlefield.

What are the steps our Defense Forces have undertaken for joint & complementary operations ? Shall you elaborate on the 1st step towards joint ops & combined theatre, pending since 2001:
* Appointment of CDS ?

 

[Ray]

Not a single air force uses Rafale except France. Does that mean FAF has enhanced fighting efficiency in comparison to all other air forces ??

Fighting efficiency depends on matching, if not superior weaponry and weapon platforms and the number of operational squadrons that are required to combat and be superior to the adversary's capabilities. We are not as per the Numbers of operational squadrons. Therefore, our fighting efficiency is NOT optimum.

Rafale was to make up the numbers and with an aircraft that was superior to that of the adversary in performance.

Yes, India does have alternatives.
IAF have to go for 6 more Su-30 MKI squadrons apart from previously ordered 272 aircrafts & 10 squadrons LCA Tejas Mk-1 in total.

I heard Mr Parrikar today in conversion with Karan Thapar.

He said that if France reneges on the deal, then, in the interim, India will upgrade the Sukhois.

Whether military or civilian, higher ranked officers tend to use sub-staffs as domestic helps. They are indeed treated as servants, not 'buddies' and is a reflection of colonial mentality.

You might recall a recent GOI advisory not to use sub-staff & class-IV employees as domestic help.

That is where you should update your knowledge.

No one will accept to act as a domestic help.

Even genuine domestic help in the civvy street do not take nonsense.

So, to think that a soldier will act as a 'domestic help' is a laugh.

Today's soldier is not yesterday's village bumpkin.

What are the steps our Defense Forces have undertaken for joint & complementary operations ? Shall you elaborate on the 1st step towards joint ops & combined theatre, pending since 2001:
* Appointment of CDS ?

You think that CDS is the be all and end all of Jointmanship?

Instead of banking on clichéd rhetoric, try to understand the issue. It is not delayed by the Forces.

In early December 2013, the Indian media reported that a proposal for the creation of the post of Permanent Chairman of the Chiefs of Staff Committee (CoSC) was being sent to the Cabinet Committee on Security for consideration. This came in the wake of the three Services Chief agreeing to the establishment of the post as per the recommendations of the Naresh Chandra Task Force. In this context, the Prime Minister's address at the Combined Commanders Conference in November 2013 is significant, given his stress upon "the urgent need to establish the right structures for higher defence management and the appropriate civil-military balance in decision making that India's complex security environment demands". The media reports also speculated that the Permanent Chairman CoSC will be appointed with effect from 01 January 2014; however, the appointment of permanent Chairman CoSC or Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) is yet to materialise. Thus the issue that merits consideration is: when will the ideal time come for the appointment of permanent CoSC; will another crisis like Kargil or Mumbai terrorist attacks lend it an urgency; and should the appointment of the Chairman CoSC be delayed further?

The three main actors involved in the process; the political leadership, the bureaucracy and the armed forces have so far lacked consensus on the appointment of the CDS and this has oft been cited as the reason for non-implementation of the same despite a number of committees comprising members from the political leadership, bureaucracy and the armed forces having recommended the appointment of CDS. Irrespective of the reasons, the real loser is the nation since a very important issue concerning national security remains unaddressed. The Prime Minister's statement and the agreement among the three service chiefs for a permanent post, which hitherto was a roadblock, is a major breakthrough. At no time in the past have the three services been unanimous in their outlook towards the creation of CDS or the permanent Chairman CoSC, though it was recommended 13 years ago.
http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/PermanentChairmanChiefsofStaffCommittee_vsrana_020114

 

[Mad Indian]

I see that Arjun Brigade is in full swing, the same morons who think that some random think tanks know what is better for the armed forces than the armed forces themselves .

I miss the objective analysis by @p2prada

 

[jouni]

You seems to be lacking in project planning skills. When Finland bought Hornets it was well known that they need 2 upgrade packages to serve 35 years. Now the second one is done and we have more than capable bird for the next fifteen years. Finland and Australia are the only countries outside US to have the latest air to ground capabilities in them.

And before you start bashing Hornets, we had 16:1 kill ratio against Eurofighters in Nato Red Flag 2012

[video]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cA6fa7VOAUo[/video]

 

[Pulkit]

I heard Mr Parrikar today in conversion with Karan Thapar.

He said that if France reneges on the deal, then, in the interim, India will upgrade the Sukhois.

Thats true that this is what our DM said....

But he also said Su is always a option.
So If Rafale deal fails to mature(I pray for it everyday) then the only option is Su along with upgrading Su.

Is my understanding correct.

 

[Pulkit]

I see that Arjun Brigade is in full swing, the same morons who think that some random think tanks know what is better for the armed forces than the armed forces themselves .

I miss the objective analysis by @p2prada

@p2prada....
Awwwwww I know u dont need my sympathies but still....


Thanks for Calling CAG team Arjun Brigade....

Finally u will have well educated opponents...
But do u stand a chance against them?


No......

 

[roma]

well again surprisingly many of you havent recognized the alternative that is ACTUALLY ahead of us

and that is to leave the air defenses open - and we will have to face china with a short-fall of squadrons and with
less capable equipment than they are having - and that's the way it present is right now , if
hostilities were to start tomorrow or midnight "tonight "

but fortunately we do have a BJP goi and i think they are moving fast to avoid that nightmare
so i feel most of you have got it right - that is to say a combination of the best we have
plus ramp up the production of tejas for general duties and mopping up operations .

so upgraded sukhoi mki and all the rest of that

secondly as another pointed out, go ahead with Rafael and if they play any games with TOT
then cut them off and we go ahead with upgrades

hope goi is listening in !

 

[Mad Indian]

@p2prada....
Awwwwww I know u dont need my sympathies but still....


Thanks for Calling CAG team Arjun Brigade....

Finally u will have well educated opponents...
But do u stand a chance against them?


No......

CAG are now professionals in defence parameters and equipment evaluations now? Did you geniuses forget that CAG is just an "audit"

Again, how will CAG know whats better for Armed forces than Armed forces themselves?

PS: Never mind. I dont want to waste my time

 

[sgarg]

CAG does audits. The army and the air force have laid down procedures for capital purchases. CAG points out deficiencies when procedures are not followed.

It is NOT the question of if I like something or somebody else likes something else. The procedures are formulated to remove personal preferences and opinions.

A very critical issue is REQUIREMENTS. The requirements have to be formulated by the Army, for example, and requirements form the basis for purchases. This is why Arjun vs T-90 issue has come up where comparative trials uses different benchmarks for local and imported tank. THIS IS AGAINST procurement policy.

It is logical to sack some senior military officers over such matters. Fire some Babus as well. It is important to fix responsibility.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Su-30MKI in additional numbers to replace Mig-27.

Sir isn't Su-30 MKI an air superiority fighter with strike capabilities.. How can it be used replace Mig-27 a dedicated air to ground fighter?

Are we considering something like Su-34 for air to ground role?

 

[Neeraj Mathur]

Sir isn't Su-30 MKI an air superiority fighter with strike capabilities.. How can it be used replace Mig-27 a dedicated air to ground fighter?

Are we considering something like Su-34 for air to ground role?

russia is not selling su34 to anyone

 

[Pulkit]

CAG are now professionals in defence parameters and equipment evaluations now? Did you geniuses forget that CAG is just an "audit"

Again, how will CAG know whats better for Armed forces than Armed forces themselves?

PS: Never mind. I dont want to waste my time

Awwww....
Again you are seeing on the wrong side.
what does CAG say is the real question.
If they dont have a say then definately u r nobody.

 

[ersakthivel]

I see that Arjun Brigade is in full swing, the same morons who think that some random think tanks know what is better for the armed forces than the armed forces themselves .

I miss the objective analysis by @p2prada

Where is @p2prada?

I too miss him the most,

Since Saurav jha's authoritative tweet stated that tejas mk1 has reached an AOA of 26-27 degs , he is super quiet.

You should remember he used to say that YelCeeYae can not cross 20 deg AOA because of bad intake design which starves air.

But the poor Saurav jha has once again played a dirty trick by quoting DRDO aero DG Tamil mani, that the present Tejas mk1 air intake can handle the air intake needs of even the much more powerful GE-414(since both k-9 kaveri and Ge-414 had similar air inflow requirements.)

What is even more cruel is the cruel Saurav jha has once again quoted the same DRDO aero DF Tamilmani stating that with 0.5 meter fuselage addition in tejas mk2 drag will decrease 5 percent due to finess ratio!!!!(our prada guy was consistently saying that tejas mk1 has massive drag issues so it was stuck at mach 1.4 and sub sonic in sea level, it seems at the worst possible scenario it just had 5 percent reducable drag in its airframe)

And what is even more galling Saurav jha is tweeting quoting the same tamil Mani is that Tejas will achieve F-16 sustained turn rate in mk2 .

See most people used the CEMILAC report published by Dr Tamilmani to beat down tejas on drag front. SInce he himself is saying so many positive things about tejas now , these guys are vexed about how to go about their tejas beating ritual.

But there is another thing called Sancho doing the same ,"objective analysis " in forums across the border on exactly the same lines of our @p2prada guy,

For the time being you can lean on him till our @p2prada 's return.

SO he is running out of straw man arguments now.

 

[arnabmit]

Su-30MKI is a multirole fighter. Not a dedicated A2A fighter. A2A is its core competency though.

India doesn't need a light bomber like Su-34.

Sir isn't Su-30 MKI an air superiority fighter with strike capabilities.. How can it be used replace Mig-27 a dedicated air to ground fighter?

Are we considering something like Su-34 for air to ground role?

 

[sorcerer]

Parrikar outlines alternatives to Rafale


Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has fired another warning shot across the bows of French fighter manufacturer, Dassault, which has been negotiating for three years with the ministry of defence (MoD) to sell the Indian Air Force (IAF) 126 Rafale fighters.

A fortnight after declaring that the IAF could make do with additional Sukhoi-30MKI fighters - which HAL builds in Nashik - in case "complications" in the negotiations were not resolved, Parrikar has gone further in outlining how the IAF could function were it decided not to procure the Rafale.

Speaking to a television channel, Headlines Today, on Monday, Parrikar said the Su-30MKI offered a viable alternative, especially given that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) was upgrading and overhauling the fighter and equipping it with state-of-the-art electronic warfare systems.

Said Parrikar: "Sukhoi-30 choice is always there. What I mean to say is: upgrade the Sukhoi-30, make it more capable." Dismissing concerns about the IAF's falling fighter numbers, Parrikar said the IAF could put more fighters into the sky by improving the serviceability rate of its current fleet of 35 squadrons.

Business Standard has earlier reported (October 23, 2014 "Govt takes note of Su-30MKI's poor 'serviceability'") that barely half of the IAF's premier Russian fighters are available for combat missions at any given time. Since then, due to HAL's efforts, that has risen to 58 per cent, still below the global norm of 80-85 per cent. Parrikar made it clear that the IAF needed to look at the issue of fighter costs. He said, "It is not always"¦ go and purchase it. A cost effective purchase is also important."

Declining to reveal the actual cost of buying the Rafale, Parrikar said, "Whether it is Rs 40,000 crore, or Rs 50,000 crore or Rs 1 lakh-crore, we are speaking about 50 per cent of the capital budget of the defence services."

Parrikar also voiced his concern at Dassault's reported reluctance to meet the terms of the IAF tender, which required the French company to guarantee the 108 fighters that HAL would build in India, after the first 18 were supplied fully-built in France. The defence minister said, "I have told (Dassault) to send a person to work out the (differences). You have to be clear that, irrespective of anything, the (tender's) terms have to be met. They cannot be diluted."

Parrikar laid down a deadline of March 2015 for his ministry to revamp five important policies - permitting foreign companies to have agents in India; the issue of blacklisting companies for wrongdoing; defining "Make in India" policy; bringing micro, small and medium enterprises (MSMEs) into defence production; and a clear offsets policy.

Interestingly, Parrikar said he was considering creating a list of defence products that would no longer be imported. He said, "Maybe some items can be brought under that, where we have already developed a certain import substitution (ability). Some items may be brought under that by 2015."

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...es-alternatives-to-rafale-115011300014_1.html

======

Good..Looks like SU it is!!

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Su-30MKI is a multirole fighter. Not a dedicated A2A fighter. A2A is its core competency though.

India doesn't need a light bomber like Su-34.

But what about low speed attack/bomb run, anti-tank run and CAS???

 

[karn]

self delete