Al-Khalid MBT And Pakistani Armour

The Last Stand

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

unless i find a source stating the deal never happened, i am inclined to believe it did. No one is arguing the South Korean-Turkish cooperation since South Korea is a joint partner but it was Pakistan (according to Turkish sources) that gave the composite armour technology.
Innocent till proven guilty. Unless we get a neutral source with the link we should not accept it as true.
 

Damian

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Saying so that Turkey or South korea(agree about this because they have exposure to american technology) would be having better armour technology only because of being better at economic is BS
Ok, it seems you do not understand. Research and development needs funding, you need to pay engineers and other scientists, you need to pay workers and factories which will develop prototypes, you need to pay for manufacturing these prototypes and testing them. Everything costs. If you have more money, you have better funded R&D phase, which means more prototypes, more testing, more problems solved.

In other words, without money you can't do anything.

if so is the case and it is all about economy than i am sure chinese armour would probably be only 2nd to USA.
Economy is not everything, but is also not irrelevant for R&D phase. Of course, scientific base is important, experience is important, but you can't perform properly R&D phase without money. Everything have it's costs that need to be payed, people won't work for free, you can't get materials for free.

Besides this, China seems to invest more in to aircrafts and navy vessels than in ground forces and it's armored fighting vehicles.

Also remember that armor development is not static, it is constantly in motion, needing resources like money, materials and of course constant tests which are not a cheap thing either, when you need to fire probably several hunder projectiles in to armor models, then go back to design bureau, analize results, then work more to solve eventual problem, and repeat tests.
 
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farhan_9909

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Ok, it seems you do not understand. Research and development needs funding, you need to pay engineers and other scientists, you need to pay workers and factories which will develop prototypes, you need to pay for manufacturing these prototypes and testing them. Everything costs. If you have more money, you have better funded R&D phase, which means more prototypes, more testing, more problems solved.

In other words, without money you can't do anything.
Indeed.here it matters.and we are also talking about the R&D of armour not a 5th generation aircraft or other big project which lasts into billions of dollars

we have now a dedicated Firm for only Armour and related parts development.and is in constant check with the rest of the tanks industry.since it again also is established within the city taxila.

And Pakistan is well capable of funding the armour related project and the engineers.


Economy is not everything, but is also not irrelevant for R&D phase. Of course, scientific base is important, experience is important, but you can't perform properly R&D phase without money. Everything have it's costs that need to be payed, people won't work for free, you can't get materials for free.

Besides this, China seems to invest more in to aircrafts and navy vessels than in ground forces and it's armored fighting vehicles.

Also remember that armor development is not static, it is constantly in motion, needing resources like money, materials and of course constant tests which are not a cheap thing either, when you need to fire probably several hunder projectiles in to armor models, then go back to design bureau, analize results, then work more to solve eventual problem, and repeat tests.
And sir do tell me how much would armour related R&D cost?
i am sure it would be even less than 20millions.and this goes on

this is AARDIC


And they are constantly doing armour related developments.

the engineers in the AARDIC are not dead.and are constantly busy in R&D related to armour

Advanced Armoured Systems Research Development Integration and Information Center (AARDIC)


Advance Armour Systems Research and Development and Integration and Information Centre (AARDIC)

- MAJOR OBJECTIVES -

1. Research, develop and integrate advance armour systems, and support indigenous development / production of high-tech systems.

2. Import deletion of assemblies and standalone systems through R&D and reverse engineering with in-house manufacture and in collaboration with local / foreign industries set up.

3. Carry out R&D in the field of advance armour systems.

4. Carry out limited manufacture to support R&D effort and also support the factories in manufacture of complex parts / systems.

5. To design and develop futuristic armour systems and technologies.

6. Carry out local development of high value systems:-

-Display all HIT products
-Maintain Central Data Bank of info on AFVs and its systems
-Maintain Central Briefing Room

7. Support Tank and APC rebuild mission of HIT in the field of following Advanced Armour Systems:-

-FCS/GCS
-TI/NVDs
-Mechatronics systems
-Hydraulic systems
-Optronics
-Electronics & Electrical sub systems
-Auxiliary systems (NBC, FESS, APU, Comm)

8. Support HIT in integration & Standardization of Advance Armour Systems

STATE-OF-THE-ART EQUIPMENT

1. Rapid Prototyping machines.
2. Metal and Vaccum Casting Machines.
3. 3D Scanning and Faro arm.
4. Plastic injection, Moulding Machines.
5. CAD/CAM/CAE software / Hardware with other allied accessories.
 

Apollyon

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Indeed.here it matters.and we are also talking about the R&D of armour not a 5th generation aircraft or other big project which lasts into billions of dollars

And sir do tell me how much would armour related R&D cost?
i am sure it would be even less than 20millions.and this goes on
:facepalm:
Well, nothing more to say.
 

Damian

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Indeed.here it matters.and we are also talking about the R&D of armour not a 5th generation aircraft or other big project which lasts into billions of dollars

we have now a dedicated Firm for only Armour and related parts development.and is in constant check with the rest of the tanks industry.since it again also is established within the city taxila.

And Pakistan is well capable of funding the armour related project and the engineers.
As I said, armor development is not static, there is no magic formula, but this is constant R&D program, especially if you don't want to be left behind.

Costs might go down after several years of evolutionary work, but when new design comes in, costs might increase.

And sir do tell me how much would armour related R&D cost?
i am sure it would be even less than 20millions.and this goes on
I know that in mid 1980's, during development of 1st generation Heavy Armor Package for M1 tanks, R&D costs were high, and if my memory do not tricks me, it costed more than 20mln USD.

this is AARDIC
65571 131099813738339 1923603958 n

And they are constantly doing armour related developments.

the engineers in the AARDIC are not dead.and are constantly busy in R&D related to armour

Advanced Armoured Systems Research Development Integration and Information Center (AARDIC)
Cool, but it does not mean, that they offer solutions better than South Korea, or Turkey itself.

Let's be honest, trying to promote your own industry, by using dubious claims that Turkey purchased your armor and more, used it in Altay R&D program, is just silly.
 

farhan_9909

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

As I said, armor development is not static, there is no magic formula, but this is constant R&D program, especially if you don't want to be left behind.

Costs might go down after several years of evolutionary work, but when new design comes in, costs might increase.



I know that in mid 1980's, during development of 1st generation Heavy Armor Package for M1 tanks, R&D costs were high, and if my memory do not tricks me, it costed more than 20mln USD.
indeed it is.
and manufacturing this facility for over 100millions means they might also know the R&D cost of armour and related development.

Cool, but it does not mean, that they offer solutions better than South Korea, or Turkey itself.

Let's be honest, trying to promote your own industry, by using dubious claims that Turkey purchased your armor and more, used it in Altay R&D program, is just silly.
Right,atlay might not have Pakistani armour but they did got some tids and bids from AARDIC.but since the jv between South korea and turkey had happened for the atlay armour.i am sure they would have opted for the south korean.

the constuction of AARDIC was very important.and done on time.i hope they get into JV with ukrainian,turkish,south korean firm for armour related help
Since from south korea we had purchased a license for local manufacturing of artillary rounds few years back.
 

Dazzler

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

indeed it is.
and manufacturing this facility for over 100millions means they might also know the R&D cost of armour and related development.



Right,atlay might not have Pakistani armour but they did got some tids and bids from AARDIC.but since the jv between South korea and turkey had happened for the atlay armour.i am sure they would have opted for the south korean.

the constuction of AARDIC was very important.and done on time.i hope they get into JV with ukrainian,turkish,south korean firm for armour related help
Since from south korea we had purchased a license for local manufacturing of artillary rounds few years back.
It was between POF and Nexter (France) and POF and Poongsang (South Korea) for artillery shell and other ammunition. AARDIC specifically takes care of R&D on advanced armour and composites, fire control, gun control, other electronics and some undisclosed stuff.
 

farhan_9909

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Al-Zarrar with Aorak ERA











does these al zarar also has a cast turret underneath the spaced armour addons or the turret were newly manufactured and are welded?
 

methos

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

does these al zarar also has a cast turret underneath the spaced armour addons or the turret were newly manufactured and are welded?
It's still the old cast turret. There are some photographs on the internet showing a damaged Al Zarrar where the composite armour at one side of the turret was removed. There the old cast turret is visible.
 

farhan_9909

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

It's still the old cast turret. There are some photographs on the internet showing a damaged Al Zarrar where the composite armour at one side of the turret was removed. There the old cast turret is visible.
i know.but i thought the latter were even further modified with serious changes...

The first 300 al zarar had very little modifications.

Few months old Jang news claimed that a total of 500 al zarar are upgraded as of now and Pakistan so far had placed order for 900 Catherine fc thermal imagers in 2005.which means a total of 900 will be upgrade to al zarar standard
 

Akim

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

It's still the old cast turret. There are some photographs on the internet showing a damaged Al Zarrar where the composite armour at one side of the turret was removed. There the old cast turret is visible.
This is only the modernization, If put another new turret, she will be more progressive forms.
 

The Last Stand

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

This is only the modernization, If put another new turret, she will be more progressive forms.
Putting a new welded, improved turret might not be possible for Pakistan, considering the fact that they have 1200 Type 59.
 

farhan_9909

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

well type 59 had gone under following upgrade

*new 720hp engine
*new ballistic computers
*new fcs
*125mm smoothbore
*era coverage on the sides and turret
*new addon armour over the turret
*Catherine fc thermal imagers
and a total of 90 upgrades


i think manufacturing a turret for al zarar wont be expensive and neither hard for heavy mechanical complex
 

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