Al-Khalid MBT And Pakistani Armour

[shiphone]

All you have posted yet been posted earlier, I think we do told abt Kanchan Armour`s logic in this fourm already..

Empty talks again, i am just a observer here, I can go on, i will speak when needed..



1.Besides what is the length of Chinese 125mm gun
2.Any new AP rounds in development ?
3. What are the properties of FCS
4. What type of thermal viewer it use, range ?
5. What is the addon on front> a. A Hidden ERA, B. Composite materiel blocks..
6. Does Commander`s Periscope or CITV have Thermal or NG ?

Lot more..

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no one will really reveal the secret of the composite armour, any structure of this armour is guess..so let it go

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ZTZ 99 is offical revealed on 1st Oct 2009, the 60th national day parade...so we could discuss it a little publicly now...I thought many information about this tank on internet publiced before is not very reliable...knowledge need upgrade. I would like to answer your questions as possiable as I could...some topic is still sensitive, I don't want to break the law...LOL

 

[p2prada]

Shiphone, I guess you are confused between the Type 98 and 99. The Type 99 does have a 1500HP engine or so says the internet.

@Damian
I believe the Type 99 turret geometry does follow the Russian concept of safe maneuvering angles or atleast it seems so. They use slat armour in the box configuration.

 

[shiphone]

Shiphone, I guess you are confused between the Type 98 and 99. The Type 99 does have a 1500HP engine or so says the internet.

@Damian
I believe the Type 99 turret geometry does follow the Russian concept of safe maneuvering angles or atleast it seems so. They use slat armour in the box configuration.

no .only the tanks in #12post have new 1500HP engines. Type98 is a mistake,it's very possiable that this model doesn't exist... there are only 10+ units were mades and these so called type98 is officially labeled as Project 9910.

the chasis of all the varients of ZTZ99 is the same, it looks a little long...zhe ZTZ99A (MK2 .....LOL) is much shorter and little higher ....only 2 ZTZ99 were fitted with 1500HP ,but they are used to test this new engine and belongs to the R&D team...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

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no one will really reveal the secret of the composite armour, any structure of this armour is guess..so let it go

----------------
ZTZ 99 is offical revealed on 1st Oct 2009, the 60th national day parade...so we could discuss it a little publicly now...I thought many information about this tank on internet publiced before is not very reliable...knowledge need upgrade. I would like to answer your questions as possiable as I could...some topic is still sensitive, I don't want to break the law...LOL

Just say you dont know..

What i asked is not top Secret, I am not asking composition of Armour but what type of composite Armour it based on, the pattern..

 

[p2prada]

Do you have specs for the production model of the tank? Any news about initial orders because I remember reading a report where PLA is currently standardizing on the Type-90 variants. Inducting the Type 99 does not make sense if a new MBT program is being planned within this decade. Considering the Type 99 still has the same flaws as the T-90A, I don't see China looking at Type-99 for fulfilling PLA's armour requirement for the future. Of course PLA has the money to burn.

Also is China looking at hyperbar engines for future requirements?

 

[Damian]

Ahhh, and once again I need to slowly explain everything...

view 1: Turret geometry??? and hits in side armor, I really don't know what you are talking about...I'm sure you don't know what turret geometry of 99 is like.

If You don't know then what are doing here? Go back to books and educate yourself.

Principle of safe manouvering angles is one of the most important things in designing vehicle protection.

Let's take a look shall we?

As we can see, turret is indeed angled inward to turret center axis but...

Look at the edge fragment between side armor and front armor modules, do You all see that? A weak spot very exposed to most predictible hit angles.

Besides this side turret armor is still not as well covered by front armor as in Soviet, Russian and Ukrainian designs.

See? Much better designed.

Also how we know that there is no composite armor over turret sides? Look at tank commander hatch, You see how close it is to armor edge? So there is no place for composite armor.

And now two western MBT's, You can see how far are hatches from side armor edge, we can even see Leopard 2 turret welding process where side composite armor cavity is not yet finished.

the protection of turret roof is a difficulty for all tanks,you could offer your solution but extra armor and active defence.and the improvement has been made(the 3rd and 4th turret)...dear.

Where do You want to place this extra armor? Do You even know how badly ZTZ-99 turret roof is designed, exact copy from vurnabale T-72 turret roof. Not to mention that ZTZ-99A2 due to turret geometry have even more exposed turret roof.

view 2: sorry, I can't tell you what is the structure of composite armo on ZTZ99,but what you said is baseless, show us your source please....if you mean the wedge blocks which empty inside, I thought Leopard2 A6 was the same.

This is ZTZ-99 front turret armor module. We can see opening in module, there are placed mounting bolts, behind this is RHA plate, in front of this opening is composite armor array, so we have here a more than 100mm air gap, and composite armor array that is thinner than in other modern tanks.

We can also see here addon armor, it's design is very irregular, some smart people were theoretizing that due to this shape irregularity it can't be ERA that is manufactured in regular shape cassettes, we have here only two regular shape cassettes, so whole armor module is protected by only 4 (2 on top, and 2 bellow) cassettes?

chinese ERA? oh ,god, it has been developed for 3 genearations, the newest FY-4 and FY-5 on ZTZ96A and 99/99A are the 3rd gen

China have ERA, yes, but this thing on ZTZ-99 do not look like ERA. I and people smarter on this subject than all of us can be wrong, but still, there are some doubts.

@Damian
I believe the Type 99 turret geometry does follow the Russian concept of safe maneuvering angles or atleast it seems so. They use slat armour in the box configuration.

I doubt that Chinese designers fully understand ideals of Soviet designers. Also lack of proper protection of hull sides is not good thing.

 

[Damian]

I believe they started storing the extra ammo in the turret rear in the new T-90AM or whatever they want to call it. The Type 99 seems to have a big turret. Possible that they also did the same?

I highly doubt that, T-90MS don't have longer turret, there is just ammunition box bolted to turret rear.

In ZTZ-99 as far as I digged it out, there are stored electronic components and similiar things, besides this, there are no blow off panels in turret rear, so storing there ammo is pointless without isolatetion and blow off panels.

according to the Chinese fanboys, it blinds tanks and missiles. The missile part i'm doubtfull unless its coming headon which is stupid, since top attack is the future. But any prospect of a laser blinding a modern FCS or does this only work on old T-72?

So Chinese device is probably working as AN/VLQ-7, but it is outdated technology, at least against tanks, modern MBT's have laser protection filters on electro optics and vision blocks, it can be different story to older vehicles and ATGM's.

 

[sayareakd]

if you dont understand tank fully, it is better to keep quite in this thread........................... and just read and learn.

 

[Damian]

Nobody need to keep quiet, everyone can share his point of view, no matter how close or far to reality this point of view is.

 

[shiphone]

1. I got it . , and in your understanding ,the only solution to proof protect is : smaller turrent.

2. since you had this image of the module already, I thought I could say a bit more... in this module ,between the RHAs there are two kinds of restraint ring structure armor array filled with 4 different material. the so called air GAP is because some replaceable armor array are taken out...this design (replaceable armor array ) could be spotted on the first prototype of 3rd Gen tanks,Fengbao-1,and Type 85II AP and ZTZ96... MBT2000/AK don't have it. their Armor structure is different.

@Kunal Biswas: two of the 4 filling materials are ceramic , it's common ...

3. you are right , no EPA on the add on wedge block of turrent as L2A6, and those different shapes of cassettes are thin pieces of composite armor to improve anti-HEAT ability .the same as those on the grilling outside the side armor as add on protection.

 

[Damian]

1. I got it . , and in your understanding ,the only solution to proof protect is : smaller turrent.

No, not smaller, but one with better geometry, or heavier turret with side composite armor.

2. since you had this image of the module already, I thought I could say a bit more... in this module ,between the RHAs there are two kinds of restraint ring structure armor array filled with 4 different material. the so called air GAP is because some replaceable armor array are taken out...this design (replaceable armor array ) could be spotted on the first prototype of 3rd Gen tanks,Fengbao-1,and Type 85II AP and ZTZ96... MBT2000/AK don't have it. their Armor structure is different.

Once again, another person who don't understand what he see.

The opening there is for mounting bolts, otherwise how do You mount this armor module on turret? Do You see anyother mounting points? No there are any over sides, so how they mount this in You fantasy? Some magic mumbo jumbo?

If we have replacebale module of complete armor array what is point to remove some layers of armor? Complete nonsene.

So once again, ZTZ-96, ZTZ-99 and export Chinese tanks based on Type-90-II have replaceabale front turret modular armor, armor is mount to turret via mounting bolts placed inside this module, to do maintnance job, replace module etc. this bolts have their own service hatch, in the service hatch there is air gap. So we have Addon armor (ERA, or otherwise) + composite array + airgap + RHA + turret thin RHA.

You can of course spread Your propaganda, but every inteligent person here see how it looks like in reality, and we have even photo provided by Your own goverment.

@Kunal Biswas: two of the 4 filling materials are ceramic , it's common ...

No it is not common, but indeed, if Chinese use ceramics as basis for armor material, they are indeed many years behind the world. Currently all modern composite armors are using internal (integral) dynamic protection elements (NERA, NxRA) with some layers made by ceramics indeed, but ceramics are only addon, the rest is made mostly from different metals alloys, rubber or resin etc. NATO is using as backup layers, dense heavy metal alloys coated in RHA and some other materials, like graphite, Russians and Ukrainians preffer outer integral or modular dynamic protection in form of heavy ERA.

3. you are right , no EPA on the add on wedge block of turrent as L2A6, and those different shapes of cassettes are thin pieces of composite armor to improve anti-AP ability .the same as those on the grilling outside the side armor as add on protection.

? What the hell is EPA? And I was not talking about Leopard 2A5/A6. The wedge armor on Leopard 2A5/A6 is outer dynamic protection in form of NERA or NxRA.

As for Chinese tanks, if these cassettes there are indeed no ERA or other type of dynamic protection, but most probably some sort of ceramic tiles or HHS plates, then congratulations China, You are using less effective addon protection that Dynamic Protection offers.

Or as usually in such cases, You don't have even slightest clue about tanks from Your country...

 

[shiphone]

the question 2 have been discussed for years in chinese forum...and I know which thread you image come from...

although you don't understand , it is comfirmed that it's replaceable armor array and restraint ring structure filled with 2 kind of ceramic and another 2 kinds of material ,this structure is mainly for anti- AP , extra protection from the composite armor on the wedge block for anti- HEAT. (corrected in #28 )

 

[Damian]

the question 2 have been discussed for years in chinese forum...and I know which thread you image come from...

although you don't understand , it is comfirmed that it's replaceable armor array and restraint ring structure filled with 2 kind of ceramic and another 2 kinds of material ,this structure is mainly for anti- AP , extra protection from the composite armor on the wedge block for anti- HEAT. (corrected in #28 )

This is only some babble talk.

I said earlier than You that this is replaceabale composite armor module with a maintnance hatch for mounting bolts. In that airgap under that hatch there is nothing more than air and mounting bolts and mounting points.

And Your description of composite armor array in this module is just like kids talk, nothing precise, and complete lack of logic... and knowledge.

Especially this is funny:

this structure is mainly for anti- AP , extra protection from the composite armor on the wedge block for anti- HEAT.

For Your information, composite armors are mostly universal, this means they offer good protection against KE projectiles like APFSDS, and against CE projectiles like HEAT.

Of course some composite armor are optimized against CE, and some against KE, and some are more universal (but also much heavier). The addon armor over this armor module, is there to just improve protection against anything... other thing is it's real effectiveness, especially if it is only passive armor without any dynamic elements.

And about this forum, of course, there is possibility that someone there have knowledge, but Your understanding and description of this armor module design, tells me there are rather only people with lack of any deeper knowledge about MBT's.

 

[pi314159]

Okay Type-99 is probably a flawed tank. Honestly I cannot judge how advanced or how outdated the Type-99 is, but Mr. Damian's comments make sense to me. How about Arjun? This thread is about Type-99 vs Arjun, isn't it? Arjun looks square, heavy and robust, that is all I can say from a layman's point of view. More detailed discussion on Arjun's strength and weakness would be interesting.

 

[Damian]

Okay Type-99 is probably a flawed tank.

It is not flawed tank, overall it is good tank, not one of the best designs, but still good, and dangerous if used properly.

How about Arjun? This thread is about Type-99 vs Arjun, isn't it? Arjun looks square, heavy and robust, that is all I can say from a layman's point of view. More detailed discussion on Arjun's strength and weakness would be interesting.

It seems that Arjun have well designed front hull armor, , hull also have heavy ballistic skirts covering 1/3 of hull side, his is a standard these days, however for better side protection, longer ballistic section or dynamic protection over full lenght are needed.

What I don't like in Arjun is turret design.

First problem is main sight placement, placing main sight in front armor "window" makes this sight vurnabale to hits in front armor, and also is weakening this section of armor due to need to make this specific "window" for sight, of course there is armor behind sight, but thinner than it would be if sight would normall go through turret roof.

I also don't like side turret protection design, because here surprisingly we also have composite armor only at more or less 1/3 of lenght of side turret, so crew compartment and turret bustle (that not nececary need to be protected by composite armor, but crew compartment need such protection) are protected only by 70-80mm RHA plate covered by storage boxes.

Honestly I don't know why Indian designers done that this way, maybe weight had something to do with this?

So overall the best made part of Arjun is it's hull, turret would be better, only if designers would stick with western design philosophy, as they based on it their tank.

What I also don't like in Arjun is it's armament, let's be honest here, rifled guns are completely outdated technology.

Look here, this are informations about pressure in different tank guns, from TankNet forums:

2A26 & earlier 2A46 models: 5100 bar*
2A46M-1 tank gun and later models: 6500 bar*
Exp 32 M1 (became later British L30 tank gun): 6180 bar**
Rheinmetall Rh 120 L/44 (and US M256 tank gun): 7100 bar
Rheinmetall Rh 120 L/55 500 bar more than L/44 (7600 bar)
Morozov KBA3 tank gun: 6500 kgf/cm² (6374.3 bar)
Morozov KBM2 tank gun: 7200 kgf/cm²(7060 bar)

Compare German Rh-120 and US M256 that both are L44 guns, but smoothbore high cuality designs, with high cuality, longer british EXP32/L30 that is L55 gun, but Rifled.

More You can read here: tank guns, face- off - Tanknet

Also lenght of APFSDS ammunition penetrator for Arjun gun is not impressive, it more resassembles typical early 1980's NATO APFSDS or TPDS munitions.

But redesigned Arjun, with smoothbore gun, slightly redesigned turret, can be very potent vehicle. The advantage of NATO designs is that they are more universal and more adaptive, to be used not only on normal battlefield where tank vs tank combat is not rare, but are also better in assymetric warfare where thick side turret armor is very good thing, that even if will not protect against perforations from RPG's, can greatly minimize internall effects of such perforations made by such weapons.

I suppose that if, Indian designers, will stick to western design philosophy, as they seem preffer over Soviet design philosophy, they can do from Arjun really good tank, but they need to rethink some solutions.

 

[jat]

The Arjun as far as protection is concerned should have the same weaknesses as L2A4 since they have the same design or rather the Arjun is almost an exact replica of the L2A4 with heavy German input. The gunners sight is the biggest weakness.

Arjun uses Kanchan armor something which has found its way into the licensed production of T-90's in India and eventually into the new IFV. Army seems to favor it. Other than that I don't see armor as a problem for the Arjun unlike the Type 99 series which seem to be always seeing a gradual increase in armor as new inputs come in.
Does the Type 99 use wielded turret or design? That is the foot mark of new generation of MBT.
Aside for this there were initial hiccups with the FCS until another foreign supplier chosen, the same FCS which was jointly developed with Israel has found its way to T-90 in Indian service.
The weakness of the tank could be "hunter killer" capability which is only touted by Pakistani fan boys and not much to care for since its auto tracking. In real combat its best to aim manually unless its a 2 man crew.

File:Arjun MBT bump track test 2.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Biggest weakness is logistics. The tank has hydropneumatic suspension which is good but can cause problems. Even the turret has hydropneumatic suspension lifting the turret up from the hull allowing for great first hit probability while on the move.
other weakness, lack of missiles. DRDO tested the Lahat in MKi years ago and thanks to Denel we knew about long before any press release. It did not make it to production variant though.
It seems like the upgrades to Arjun are mostly in the form of reducing weight, and increasing battlefield awarness and active protection suites.
No upgrade to the main gun. AA gun will see and upgrade.
120 mm rifled gun probably impressed the top brass with HESH shots.

 

[Damian]

Does the Type 99 use wielded turret or design?

Yes, turret is welded from RHA plates mostly, some elements are welded from CHA (Cast) elements.

The tank has hydropneumatic suspension which is good but can cause problems.

Hydrogass suspension is rather a future, it is lighter and don't take any place inside hull like torsion bars suspension do.

120 mm rifled gun probably impressed the top brass with HESH shots.

HESH is also outdated but still cheap technology, but future is in HE multipurpose ammunition with programmabale fuze, such ammunitions are Israeli Kalanit, German DM11 and still in R&D phase, US AMP (Advanced Multi Purpose).

I actually seen photos that shows what AMP done with T-55 on tests, one huge hole in turret side armor, really impressive for HE ammunition.

 

[jat]

In all honesty we know a lot about the Arjun as one only needs to go to DRDO's website to get information and even OFB.
The Type 99 and all its series are a mystery. Its a lot more intriguing.

 

[jat]

HESH is also outdated but still cheap technology, but future is in HE multipurpose ammunition with programmabale fuze, such ammunitions are Israeli Kalanit, German DM11 and still in R&D phase, US AMP (Advanced Multi Purpose).

I actually seen photos that shows what AMP done with T-55 on tests, one huge hole in turret side armor, really impressive for HE ammunition.

I have too. But i'd rather like the rifled gun. Remember the challenger kill in Iraq?
But who is going to offer India a new gun? The 120 mm rifled gun on the Arjun is made in India. Its atleast better in terms of accuracy hopefully to the T-90's gun.

 

[Damian]

I doubt that they ever tell something more, this is a way to hide strong and weak points in design, and it is normal to any nation, they only show what they want to show, everything else You need to dig out yourself.