Al-Khalid MBT And Pakistani Armour

[Armand2REP]

Now China make engines for tanks, make this 1200hp for 96A, and export models

So why is it MBT 2000 must have Ukrainian engines which are already inferior to anything in the West?

 

[Damian]

So why is it MBT 2000 must have Ukrainian engines which are already inferior to anything in the West?

You are wrong here, You should read more about 5TD and 6TD engines, they are not inferior, these are very good engines, some versions of 6TD are allready in 1500HP level, and are also reliabale engines (especially 6TD, 5TD needed some designers work to be reliabale).

Why Ukrainians are not using 1500HP engines is because they don't need to, they vehicles are still max 50 tons heavy (T-84M Oplot-M vel Object 478DU10), so 1200HP is good enough.

Very interesting is 6TD-5 project, providing 1800HP it weight only 1,420kg, while MTU MB883 weight is 1,800kg with only 1500HP.

You should revise Your opinions and be more critical, also to western designs.

 

[DMF]

to Damian
haha, you know better than me, you are right, China import many know -hows from many countries, but some core technology are not for sell, you must work to get it by yourself, for the engineering know - how, you have to make the project, that is a matter of practice, when you work on it, you know how to do it, need lot of money, and time. When China begin to develop the WS10 in the late 80's, China very poor, also the material and processing ability were weak then, the engine not very well tested because no enough money . But now China get a little money, and invested a lot in projects, now already can make single crystal alloy, and titanium powder casting plate, in the developing process, only the material used cost near to RMB 1billion, the new WS15 is progressing much more smoothly.
Also the dictator government control the heavy industries in China, they have a centralize project on diesel engine development, China already make diesel engines for ship, heavy truck, but still need more work to make the engine better.
as developing country China still need to learn, has a lot of home work to do.

 

[Damian]

to Damian
haha, you know better than me, you are right, China import many know -hows from many countries, but some core technology are not for sell, you must work to get it by yourself, for the engineering know - how, you have to make the project, that is a matter of practice, when you work on it, you know how to do it, need lot of money, and time. When China begin to develop the WS10 in the late 80's, China very poor, also the material and processing ability were weak then, the engine not very well tested because no enough money . But now China get a little money, and invested a lot in projects, now already can make single crystal alloy, and titanium powder casting plate, in the developing process, only the material used cost near to RMB 1billion, the new WS15 is progressing much more smoothly.
Also the dictator government control the heavy industries in China, they have a centralize project on diesel engine development, China already make diesel engines for ship, heavy truck, but still need more work to make the engine better.
as developing country China still need to learn, has a lot of home work to do.

It is incredible, PRC is just reinventing the wheel as many developing countries... while Your country try to get hands on western technology, this technology is allready seen on west as obsolete or near obsolete. Besides this, stealing is not good seen in our culture. So China instead of trying to steal technology, should rather try to buy licence.

 

[Armand2REP]

That 1500hp does not come without cost, like burning up the hours of the engine. It is the same engine with a PP that runs it too hot. No one will select that engine which makes a good point as to why Russia hasn't set up a JV with Ukraine for a more modern and powerful tank engine they desperately want for the FMBT.

 

[Damian]

Armand, and once again You are talking about something You completely lacks knowledge.

Russia and Ukraine do not have any joint venture because design bureaus are fighting each other, this is real "war" out there, and if You ask when that "war" started I will say in the 50's, and the reasons of this war were initialy replacements for T-54/55 and T-62 series, known as Object 430, Object 432, Object 434 from the one side, and Object 166T, Object 167M, Object 172 and Object 172M from the second side of this conflict.

And if You still don't understand, take a good translator and read blogs of A. Khlopotov (Gur Khan) and A. Tarasenko (Harkonnen vel Andrei_bt).

Here You have links, and compare their arguments... it is also educational because intentionally or not they reveal some usefull informations.

Gur Khan attacks!
andrei_bt

And if You still don't understand, learn Russian and read books, for example the ones written by Mikhail Baryatynski or other respected authors, and even if You can't get these books, th newer ones written by Steven Zaloga are preatty good, better than the old ones, written in cold war times when sources and data was hard to get.

Besides this, to clear some thing, Russians sees Ukrainian stuff as foreing, even if both countries were most important in Soviet Union, and vice versa, Ukrainians sees Russian stuff as foreing, and there is even more, Russians sees Ukrainian stuff as inferior, Ukrainians sees Russian stuff as inferior... so how both countries can make JV if both see each other as a concurention on foreing markets + the problems I mentioned earlier.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Chinese are stuffing lots of Electronic package inside their tanks..

Type-99..

 

[Damian]

It is not ZTZ-99/Type-99 Kunal, but modernized Type-90-II with some stuff from ZTZ-99 and new electronics.

 

[DMF]

It is incredible, PRC is just reinventing the wheel as many developing countries... while Your country try to get hands on western technology, this technology is allready seen on west as obsolete or near obsolete. Besides this, stealing is not good seen in our culture. So China instead of trying to steal technology, should rather try to buy licence.

The developing countries prefer not to reinvent the wheel, prefer to import technology and know - how, but you know, China can not buy high tech things, China like to pay for the patent but they not sell, for example, China buy airborn early waring aircraft from Israel, when the air plane was ready, the USA asked to cancel the deal, so China have to develop by her self, the cost higher, and time lost. When China sent some UAV bought from Israel back to Israel to be upgraded, the USA asked the Israel not give these UAV back to China, so China have to make UAV by herself.
The air craft engines China is trying to develop, are sure very obsolete according to your country's standard, especially the engine for helicopters, but the mechanical industry is a matter of material and processing ability, the hard core know how no body will sell to China. China developed two generations of single crystal alloy, DD3 and DD6, but now Japan is developing the 6th generation alloy, China has a long way to go. "To have it" is the goal at present time for China, the next step will be to have it made good, hope in the next 20 years, China's industrial ability can get near to your country's.

 

[Damian]

True true, but one thing, my country also do not have many of these technologies... simply because we don't need them (at least right now).

And hey I suppose if PRC would resign from many of it's aspirations, technology transfers embargos would just disappear.

 

[Armand2REP]

True true, but one thing, my country also do not have many of these technologies... simply because we don't need them (at least right now).

More like simply because you do not have the money or expertise. The Iron Curtain industry you inherited is still the basis of most Polish military technologies.

And hey I suppose if PRC would resign from many of it's aspirations, technology transfers embargos would just disappear.

They are embargoed because of their human rights issues, remember TJ square?

 

[utubekhiladi]

Chinese are stuffing lots of Electronic package inside their tanks..

Type-99..

arjun mbt hardly has any modern electonics

 

[Damian]

More like simply because you do not have the money or expertise. The Iron Curtain industry you inherited is still the basis of most Polish military technologies.

True, but on the other hand Iron Curtain technologies were by many years superior to most things made on the west, may I remind You that when Soviets fielded T-64 west do not have anything that could match this thing, even basic T-72 Ural was something that could easy handle AMX-30, Leopard 1, Chieftain or M60A1.

But I know I know, You still belive in all these myths about Soviet designed weapons, but hey, these myths are based only on fights with outdated models, and mostly downgraded export monkey variants for non WarPac countries, and even WarPac countries that were forbided to use the newest stuff, had better stuff than all these middle east or Asia countries.

So You should read more about this subject. And hey, even old T-55AM with BDD composite armor had superior protection than AMX-30 and Leopard 1 and enough firepower to be dangerous to AMX-30 or Leopard 1.

As I said earlier, only US had comparabale technologies to these made in Soviet Union, Europe besides some episodes was marginal in case of weapon systems development.

They are embargoed because of their human rights issues, remember TJ square?

Who cares about humans rights?! It is obvious that the reason for embargos are PRC ambitions to be numer one, and nor US wish this, nor Russia or any other country in the region (besides PRC allies). This is the reason of embargo... but of course we all can be naive and belive in these useless but beautifull ideals.

 

[Armand2REP]

So why the comment...

my country also do not have many of these technologies... simply because we don't need them

You know Poland is not in the league to make these systems. France exports more in a year than Poland has since the beginning of the Third Republic.

The massacre was the catalyst for the embargo... simple fact. The world didn't have a problem exporting weapons before with Chinese ambitions on Taiwan. China was far more militant pre-Tienanmen.

 

[Damian]

You know Poland is not in the league to make these systems. France exports more in a year than Poland has since the beginning of the Third Republic.

Only because someone exports more doesen't mean that have smarter scientists, while France is making wheeled APC to replace tracked IFV's (and it is overall bad idea, wheeled APC, even with automatic cannon will never be good support element for MBT's), my countries engeeners not only designed IFV, but a very sucessfull technology demonstrator of Universal Combat Platform (and Anders is only firts such vehicle, currently there are concept works on lighter, amphibious UCP with hybrid engine). So do not underestimate easterners.

The massacre was the catalyst for the embargo... simple fact. The world didn't have a problem exporting weapons before with Chinese ambitions on Taiwan. China was far more militant pre-Tienanmen.

Taiwan is also not the reason, and Tienanmen was just good cassus belli for embargos, and good PR tool also.

 

[jat]

Type 99 ABC vs Arjun MK1 or 2

One of India's success. Orders soar to 500 odd Arjun tanks. The Chinese fans claim both the J-10 and everything else in China is superior to anything India makes.
In this case, what was once touted as a failure by Pakistanis, Chinese and the Indian media has come of age.
IMO probably a superior tank to anything the Chinese have. What is your perspective?

Manufacturer Norinco
Unit cost ¥ 17,417,659 Renminbi
(approx 2,500,000 USD)[1]
Specifications
Weight ~54 tonnes for Type-99G
~57 tonnes for Type-99A1
~58 tonnes for Type-99A2
Length 11.0 m
Width 3.4 m
Height 2.2 m
Crew 3 (4 originally based on the Type 98 prototypes without autoloader)
Armor Classified, Al2O3, ERA, composite
Main
armament 125 mm smoothbore tank gun, compatible with Chinese 140 mm guns or 155 mm for Type 99KM
Secondary
armament Type 85 heavy machine gun 12.7x108 mm commander's machine gun, 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun
Engine liquid-cooled diesel
1,500 hp (1,100 kW); 2,100 hp for Type 99KM
Power/weight 27.8 hp/tonne; 28 hp/tonne for Type 99KM
Suspension torsion bar
Operational
range 600 km

this is type 99 stats. IMO the weight seems wrong. its nearing 60 tons. odd. There seems to evidence that the Chinese are not placing extra ammo on floor, perhaps. Other than that the price seems wrong as well. A basic t-90 costs 2.5 to 3 mill today, i'd say the Chinese varient is probabily closer to 4 million with that german engine. if its really 2.5 mill, its using some really cheap armor.
The arjun

Type Main battle tank
Place of origin India
Production history
Designer CVRDE, DRDO
Designed March 1974–present
Manufacturer Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi
Unit cost INR17.2 crore (US$3.8 million)[6]
Produced 2004–present
Number built 90–124, additional 124 Mk-I and 124 Mk-II ordered[1][2][3][4][5]
Variants Tank EX
Specifications
Weight 58.5 tonnes (57.6 long tons; 64.5 short tons)
Length 10.638 metres (34 ft 10.8 in)
Width 3.864 metres (12 ft 8.1 in)
Height 2.32 metres (7 ft 7 in)
Crew 4 (commander, gunner, loader and driver)
Armor steel/composite Kanchan armour.
Main
armament 120 mm rifled tank gun
LAHAT anti-tank missile
HEAT, APFSDS, HESH Rounds[7]
Secondary
armament HCB 12.7 mm AA MG
Mag 7.62 mm Tk715 coaxial MG[7]
Engine MTU 838 Ka 501 diesel
1,400 hp (1,040 kW)
Power/weight 23.9hp/tonne,[8]
Transmission Renk epicyclic train gearbox, 4 fwd + 2 rev gears
Suspension hydropneumatic
Ground clearance 0.45 metres (1 ft 6 in)
Fuel capacity 1,610 litres (350 imp gal; 430 US gal)
Operational
range 450 kilometres (280 mi)[7]
Speed 72 km/h (45 mph) Road[7]

40 km/h (25 mph) Cross country[7]

price of arjun mkI proabily closer to 5 mill or even 6 mill given inflation etc... and spares.

 

[DMF]

"CO-Ordinating Committee for Export Control" was funded in Nov.1949,head quartered in Paris, to block the technique transfer to the Soviet block. But in the 1980's, when China line up with the west countries to block the Soviet, this embargo was lifted, after the Tiananmen square incident, at the same time the Soviet near collapse and collapsed in 1991, so China become the enemy No. 1 again. The embargo enforced
And Despite the embargo, China still learn some thing from Israel and France, there are many ex-Soviet engineers work in China. French helped China a lot, and better than help India, in some Chinese forums, it's said Dassault CATIA help China to develop some flight control system. Dassault also helped India to develop LCA, but the airplane still over weight.
This tank is not Type 99, but a new export model, newly developed, only very recently China learned to use auto gears and wheel drive. The whole powertrain can be hooked out one time, this is also an improvement. As for some English words inside the tank, I think maybe because this is for export, maybe this one is a prototype.

 

[Damian]

ZTZ-99 series have some very serious design flaws, and IMHO Chinese are not aware of them because they repeat these design flaws with all their designs.

1st: Turret geometry is not good for current turret armor distribution. Armor distribution on Chinese tanks is same as in Soviet (Russian/Ukrainian) designs, however turret geometry is closer to western tanks, this makes Chinese tanks highly vurnabale to hits in side armor that is not well angled to be covered by frontal armor within safe manouvering angles (frontal arc, +/- 0-30 degrees from turret longitudinal center axis), also turret roof that is ~70mm thick is not well angled and is highly exposed in all ZTZ-99 variants.

2nd: Because ZTZ-99 to ZTZ-99A1 use very specific front turret modular composite armor, there is more RHA and big air gap for mounting bolts instead of composite insert. Also it is not certain if ZTZ-99 to ZTZ-99A1 variants use ERA, not regular geometry of externally mounted cassettes/plates suggest that this is not ERA but some kind of bolted on addon armor, maybe ceramic or HHS.

3rd: Side hull protection is only basic, 80mm RHA side hull armor + few mm non ballistic skirts without any additional protection (ERA or otherwise).

Some of these drawbacks seems to been adressed in ZTZ-99A2 and improved, like absence of modular front turret armor, instead there is semi modular composite armor as in 90-95% of modern MBT's. Also it seems that vehicle is equipped with ERA.

ZTZ-99 series are not bad tanks, but besides ZTZ-99A2, earlier variants are more comparabale to T-72B than to more modern vehicles.

Also ammunition storage system is similiar to T-72/T-90 series, and share it's vurnabilities.

But make no mistake, it is not wise to underestimate these vehicles, also Arjun Mk1 is still not perfect and share one drawback with ZTZ-99 series, this is armor distribution over turret sides and turret geometry.

 

[Armand2REP]

Only because someone exports more doesen't mean that have smarter scientists, while France is making wheeled APC to replace tracked IFV's (and it is overall bad idea, wheeled APC, even with automatic cannon will never be good support element for MBT's), my countries engeeners not only designed IFV, but a very sucessfull technology demonstrator of Universal Combat Platform (and Anders is only firts such vehicle, currently there are concept works on lighter, amphibious UCP with hybrid engine). So do not underestimate easterners.

About that Anders, is it supposed to be an IFV or a tank? It carries a CTG 120mm and weighs nearly 35t. At Level 3 protection it has a pretty pathetic armour rating. Throw on the modular and it weighs more than a Soviet MBT. It is quite a stretch to call it A400M transportable. Most of the guts are imported, Swiss gun, German engine, Serbian night vision. Ukrainian APS, German gunner and commander sights. I see a few Polish vectronics in it that have yet to be exported. Most export Twardy's have French gear in it instead of the Polish stuff this has. It is good to see Polish engineers taking a stab at something but

A) it is still a demo
B) it relies heavily on imported gear
C) it is only one item of innovation that has yet to be verified
D) export prospects are slim to none with high weight and low protection

 

[jat]

I know about the ammunition being a problem in the T series and likily Type XX but in regards to the extra armour on the sides. Perhaps its to defeat RPG etc.. Against tanks the Chinese probabily relay on the low siloute theory the Russians based there tanks on. Of course the chasis of a Type 99 is bigger due largely to the larger engine.