Al-Khalid MBT And Pakistani Armour

[jat]

Also it seems like DRDO has being fooling around on the Arjun MK II technologies since 2004. Most likily because the design was no longer on the drawing boards. perhaps since 2004 it was the factory at stake?

 

[Damian]

I have too. But i'd rather like the rifled gun. Remember the challenger kill in Iraq?

Yeah I remember, nothing impressive, HESH hit at 5000m against old T-55, try this against modern tank with composite armor, HESH is completely ineffective against modern MBT's, unless You hit a place not protected by composite armor or other type of dynamic protection.

But who is going to offer India a new gun? The 120 mm rifled gun on the Arjun is made in India. Its atleast better in terms of accuracy hopefully to the T-90's gun.

There are no proof that rifled guns are more accurate than modern smoothbore guns, actually in all tests for new MBT, tanks armed with smoothbore guns performed better in firing tests than for example Challenger 2 with very modern, high quality rifled gun. This say us that smoothbore seems to be overall better.

 

[jat]

I doubt that they ever tell something more, this is a way to hide strong and weak points in design, and it is normal to any nation, they only show what they want to show, everything else You need to dig out yourself.

Escpecially for the Chinese. Everything is PR. We haven't seen a single shot of J-10's cockpit for fear of bad PR until a new cockpit thats more glamorous than the JF-17.
Everything with the CCP is political and the PLA's new toys BUILT or assembled in China even though Russian HQ-9 are tools for PR.
But that is way too off topic.

Does shiphone or anyother member object to which is a bigger badder tank?

 

[jat]

Yeah I remember, nothing impressive, HESH hit at 5000m against old T-55, try this against modern tank with composite armor, HESH is completely ineffective against modern MBT's, unless You hit a place not protected by composite armor or other type of dynamic protection.

HESH hit at 5 KM? WTF? i thought it was a sabot round?

There are no proof that rifled guns are more accurate than modern smoothbore guns, actually in all tests for new MBT, tanks armed with smoothbore guns performed better in firing tests than for example Challenger 2 with very modern, high quality rifled gun. This say us that smoothbore seems to be overall better.

not today anyways. But you gotta admit, HESH still does a lot to old tanks and any building/bunker.
Which begs to ask another question. Is the Arjun in strike corps? anyone?

 

[Damian]

Does shiphone or anyother member object to which is a bigger badder tank?

I do not like discussion performed with principle "my tank is more badass because is from my country, than your tank", it is not professional and led to many misunderstandings about each tank design.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There are no proof that rifled guns are more accurate than modern smoothbore guns, actually in all tests for new MBT, tanks armed with smoothbore guns performed better in firing tests than for example Challenger 2 with very modern, high quality rifled gun. This say us that smoothbore seems to be overall better.

But who is going to offer India a new gun?

We need ?

Arjun Rifled Gun can be smooth-bore if requested and we can use top NATO rounds, The barrel pressure is from 612mpa to 800mpa top, Their is a new gun in development though..

Arjun Rifled gun is good, Their is no problem with it yet, So no issues with it..



Also note: ARDE develop Indian 125mm smooth-bore barrel for T-72 and new deigned developed from T-90S 125mm from tot..

 

[Damian]

HESH hit at 5 KM? WTF? i thought it was a sabot round?

It was HESH, APFSDS at such range lost most of it's kinetic energy, is less accurate and less effective. From smoothbore guns at such ranges You fires HEAT, HE or GLATGM munitions.

not today anyways. But you gotta admit, HESH still does a lot to old tanks and any building/bunker.
Which begs to ask another question. Is the Arjun in strike corps? anyone?

HESH is primitive and outdated type of ammunition, as I said, many modern armies will replace standard HE munitions, and even HEAT with multipurpose HE munitions with programmabale fuze.

For example in US, AMP round will replace M830 HEAT, M830A1 MPAT, M908 HEOR and M1028 Cannister rounds.

 

[Damian]

Arjun Rifled Gun can be smooth-bore if requested and we can use top NATO rounds, The barrel pressure is from 612mpa to 800mpa top, Their is a new gun in development though..

So this rifled gun can be converted in to smoothbore? How, it was done allready for tests?

 

[sayareakd]

@Damian the way chines are adding more armor to their tank, shows that they are not happy with the level of protection, therefore they made type 99 tank.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

HESH hit at 5 KM? WTF? i thought it was a sabot round?

not today anyways. But you gotta admit, HESH still does a lot to old tanks and any building/bunker.
Which begs to ask another question. Is the Arjun in strike corps? anyone?

Hesh was used, Kill was made on a static T-55 or 59, It was more used like arty than tank vs tank shots, The coordinate were given by troops behind enemy line..

HESH is a cheap solution to expensive programmable HE ammo..

Arjun in quick reaction units along the border not in Strike corp..

 

[Damian]

@Damian the way chines are adding more armor to their tank, shows that they are not happy with the level of protection, therefore they made type 99 tank.

It is normal to add armor on to tank for beter protection, do You know how many times Americans changed protection in M1 series?

1) M1 to M1IP in 1984, thicker ront turret armor and changed armor materials.
2) M1A1 in 1985, again probably different armor materials.
3) M1A1HA in 1988, completely new composite armor with DU alloy elements, and probably first step to use integral dynamic elements.
4) M1A1HC/M1A2, 2nd generation DU alloy and probably new materials.
5) M1A2SEP in 1999 with 3rd generation DU alloy, once again new materials, reports of adding graphite coating around DU alloy elements. This armor was later added to M1A1SA and M1A1FEP after AIM v.2 modernisation.
6) Just recently some reports from 2010/2011 that they once again done something with base armor of turret and hull in M1A2SEP and M1A1SA, no details availabale, only that frontal and side protection was enhanced.

So we have here at least 6 times, when armor was upgraded, without any externall differences.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

So this rifled gun can be converted in to smoothbore? How, it was done allready for tests?

The deign can be changed, By simply removing the helical grooves..

ARDE produce tank barrel, 125mm guns for T-72 and T-90S..

 

[jat]

Does shiphone or anyother member object to which is a bigger badder tank?
I do not like discussion performed with principle "my tank is more badass because is from my country, than your tank", it is not professional and led to many misunderstandings about each tank design.

Oh no Damian, i'm not the person that will get blinded so easily. I'm not doing this because i'm a I told you kind of guy. I'm doing this because i'm the kind of guy who makes it into a thread because in before 2007 the Arjun was ripped on Chinese and their ever favorite of friends the Pakistani's. Even though I pointed out that a soviet design has flaws, serious ones and has its advantages, ie cheap, easy to build and provides favorable numbers especially when tanks are at the for front of any military campaign into hostile environments.
This thread is destroy the illusion that PLA fanboys have about Type 99 superiority and the AK as well. I know what the Arjun lacks, and is out dated in western standards but its a lot better than all the other armour the IA currently has in terms of firepower and protection.

 

[Damian]

The deign can be changed, By simply removing the helical grooves..

It is never that easy.

Even though I pointed out that a soviet design has flaws, serious ones and has its advantages, ie cheap, easy to build and provides favorable numbers especially when tanks are at the for front of any military campaign into hostile environments.

Soviet design philosophy have other advantages, like good front protection with small overall vehicle weight, that is probably more important than being easy to build, and let's not make mistake here, Soviet tanks from purely mechanical point of view are much more complex than their western adversaries. For example turret in SOviet tanks have many more moving, mechanical parts of autoloading system, while in western designs we have only simple turret basket for crew and servo mechanism for turret traverse and main weapons elevation.

Arjun lacks, and is out dated in western standards but its a lot better than all the other armour the IA currently has in terms of firepower and protection.

I would be very carefull with such statements, T-90S with turret welded from RHA plates, with it's dynamic protection and smoothbore gun with better APFSDS ammunition can be on par, or better than Arjun Mk1... Mk2 can change this tough.

 

[Armand2REP]

Come on guy, the Type 99 is hardly a match for Arjun 1, Arjun Mk2 will slaughter it.

 

[Damian]

Come on guy, the Type 99 is hardly a match for Arjun 1, Arjun Mk2 will slaughter it.

... of course you made very deep and professional analize on combat capabilities of both vehicles, it is also very "proffesional" to make hard statements about vehicle that still was not shown and probably even don't exists this day in anything else than prototype.

The reality is very different from our French friend fantasy. ZTZ-99 can be very potent and dangerous if used properly, even old, export, downgraded monkey models of T-72 used by Iraq, used properly from ambushes were danerous for coalition armor in 1991 ODS, there was at least one accident when T-72 disabled M1A1HA or M1A1, however vehicle back to combat after short repair and crew was unharmed. (It was probably side hit with 125mm HEAT projectile beyond safe manouvering angles in the left hull side skirts)

 

[Armand2REP]

Of course your analysis is bogus because you believe Chinese vectronics and engineering are on par with German engineering. It is a remade Leo2A4 which is superior to China's T-72 clones. With the addition of French and Israeli vectronics the Mk 2 is well beyond the technology of the PLA. Why? Because Pakistan doesn't even want it! It is much the same as Polish export customers wanting French vectronics in their PT-91s. The only fantasy here is your belief that China is actually up to speed.

 

[Damian]

Of course your analysis is bogus because you believe Chinese vectronics and engineering are on par with German engineering.

And where did I say that these electronics are on par? Your another fantasy?

It is a remade Leo2A4 which is superior to China's T-72 clones.

Arjun is based on Leo2A4, but have really small commonalities with it.

With the addition of French and Israeli vectronics the Mk 2 is well beyond the technology of the PLA. Why? Because Pakistan doesn't even want it! It is much the same as Polish export customers wanting French vectronics in their PT-91s. The only fantasy here is your belief that China is actually up to speed.

And once again, read my posts 1000 times, until Your brain will be abale to understand what I am talking. I completely don't have interest in Your fantasies.

 

[Armand2REP]

And you think T-72s are dangerous when the old monkey model AMX-30s slaughtered them in the Gulf War. Get with it guy, the T-72 has proven time and again it is no match for modern armour and that is in essence what the Type 99 is, a modernised T-72. It will end up the same against modern armour as it did against yesterdays armour in the Gulf War...

 

[jat]

The T-72's bad performance wasn't just because the T-72 had flaws. Rather Saddams Tank Crews were not trained well, that could also be factor. Saddam's troops did not command the battlefield. The US did, from the air and ground. It was complete retreat. A well trained crew can create ambushes like Damain said but a an army that is properly prepared to use these weapons ie India knows how to change tactics when needed.
The T-72 is still formidable given its gun, although less powerful than even the T-90's and has defeciences in ranges greater than 2.5 km but considering the cost of the tank, and weight (T-72 can be carried by Il-76) this weapon paints a larger picture. It is in no way on PAR to match the sheer power, and protection of NATO's tanks. Nore was it designed to go 1 on 1. Rather the cost would allow WARSAW to field 3 or so T-72's for every M1A1.
Soviets did not intend on having the T-72's go and take on mechanized infantry or Europe alone. The SOviets considered artillery, massive numbers of them and ATGM.
The T-90 is a redesign of T-72 for greater performance, its almost physically the same machine, however it differs in that electronics have become cheaper, and more widely accesible. The T-80's electronics, ie Shotra ended up on the T-90's.
While I agree that front armour of the T series is pretty heavy, it is also not the only spot tanks need armor as the Russians have learn't seeing the NEW T-90AM which has alot more armour on the side turret.
Nevertheless the T series is done for. There is market for cheap tanks and India is one of them. But they are outmatched by NATO tanks when it comes to fording crossing and just moving.
NATO in the event of WWIII would have had the advantage with bigger tanks and better NBC protection. Little is known what would happen after 5 months of WWIII.
Thats the past though.
While we can say great things about the T series, ie autoloader they have shown poor performance, expecially when it comes to protecting the crew, and in any war, the crew is more valuable than the tank. IMO.
Aside for this, it seems that the Russians and Chinese are increasing ERA and addon armour, with no major redesign of tanks in assembly. By this I mean, escpecially the Chinese are adding on Armour after bulding the HULL and Turret instead of increasing the thickness of armour.
Is this related to the fact that T series don't have enough room for thicker armour? so the result is more armour on the exeterior of the tank?
On the same issue of armour, the Russians, and Chinese are also trying to increase survivability of their tanks with active defence systems. Shotra and lasers...a great solution to increase survivability with out increasing weight.