Akash Surface-to-air Missile

[porky_kicker]

The correct method is to test it against both ground based jammers and airborne jammers.
India can either build such jammers or import from Russia/USA.
You cannot say it does not work until you test it.

Barak 8 should also be tested against such jammers.

india uses home grown DRFM based jamming tech. in samukyta electronic warfare system
india employs such jammers on aircrafts
indian fighters uses Elta EL/M-8222 self-protection jammer, Elettronica of Italy’s ELT-568 AESA-based jamming system.

Israelis are masters in this field which is even acknowledged by Americans
eg
1.Elta ELL-8222 self protection jamming pod
2.ELTA's EL/L-8251 Escort jammer
ETC

barak 8 uses EL/M-2248 AESA RADAR whose characteristics such as LPI features ,random scan pattern, random frequency, random PRF all make it very resistive to DFRM jamming and not to mention all the classified ECCM goodies

 

[porky_kicker]

Janes says "engage on the move/fire on halt".
Whatever it means.

it means Kunal Biswas is correct

 

[garg_bharat]

india employs such jammers on aircrafts
indian fighters uses Elta EL/M-8222 self-protection jammer, Elettronica of Italy’s ELT-568 AESA-based jamming system.

So how difficult it is to test Akash system against such jammers when India has the jammers already?

My point is that one should not pass judgement without until all facts are on the table. Maybe Israeli system is better. But this does not make Akash a bad system. If Akash does it job, then it does not matter if Barak 8 is better.

I support SPYDER purchases. However it should be combined with upgrades of existing air defence systems plus purchases of Akash regiments.

 

[porky_kicker]

So how difficult it is to test Akash system against such jammers when India has the jammers already?

airbone jammers main task is to jam / spoof / decieve the ground based seach radars

if u have AESA based radar to support ur SAMs than it is not much of a problem since AESA radars have inherent characteristics which provide it will a more than resonable resistance on its own, so u could test ur own jammers including the latest DRFM based jammers on it to optimize and fine tune it and the additional ECCM features.

but a PESA radar such as rajendra is kind of vulnerable to DRFM based jammers due to certain inherent weakness unique to it, therefor a DRFM based jammer manages to insert a series of replicas of the original transmitted radar signal to form a large number of RFTs(repeater false target), and hence these false targets may appear at different ranges, velocities, or angles relative to the actual physical targets .
however ECCM techniques exists one of which i pointed out earlier to mitigate the shortcomings and provide a reasonable robust defense against the latest jammers .
IT IS LIKE A CAT AND MOUSE GAME OF TECHNOLOGY U GOT TO TRY TO REMAIN A STEP AHEAD
SABE :biggrin2:

Indian home grown defense products have to under go all kinds of longest and most grueling tests before it is accepted by the military.and therefor be rest assured akash is quite capable of holding out on its own against all the present threats.
the sheer no of test fires/ technical evaluations that some of our indigenous system go through i don't think many nations would ever fire even the same no of missiles for a similar system during that systems entire operational life time :biggrin2:
ask any pakis for confirmation if ur in doubt

 

[garg_bharat]

PESA radar such as rajendra is kind of vulnerable to DRFM based jammers

My friend "kind of", "sort of" does not work. The actual numbers matter.

If ECCM features are built into Rajendra, then it can hold off spoofing or it can distinguish between a correct and false radar return.

It also depends on reaction time. Can aircraft's systems cope with this ground based radar to jam it adequately.

I think only dedicated EW aircraft will be able to accomplish the task of jamming Rajendra radar.

 

[porky_kicker]

My friend "kind of", "sort of" does not work. The actual numbers matter.

If ECCM features are built into Rajendra, then it can hold off spoofing or it can distinguish between a correct and false radar return.

It also depends on reaction time. Can aircraft's systems cope with this ground based radar to jam it adequately.

I think only dedicated EW aircraft will be able to accomplish the task of jamming Rajendra radar.

basic PESA RADAR is vulnerable but rajendra is a PESA radar with advance technologies incorporated into it , so its vulnerability is "sort of" less than a basic PESA

rajendra has strong and extensively ECCM built into it which kicks in automatically if it detects the characteristic anomalies identified with repeater false target in the radar return.

manual mode also available

reaction time is near instantaneous

I think only dedicated EW aircraft will be able to accomplish the task of jamming Rajendra radar.

if i am the operator operating rajendra i will want to be safe than sorry ,
so i wont undermine any legitimate threat or may end up having my ass blown up sky high :biggrin2: :biggrin2:

 

[garg_bharat]

basic PESA RADAR is vulnerable but rajendra is a PESA radar with advance technologies incorporated into it , so its vulnerability is "sort of" less than a basic PESA

I am not sure if you are making any sense.

There is no weapon system out there which is "invincible". A convoy of SPYDER SAM can be destroyed by dumb rockets, or artillery shells. Each Israeli SAM system costs about 25M USD. Which can be killed by a 0.1M volley of rockets.

Indian army has a system called Strela which combines radar directed AA gun with low level AA missiles. This system can be modernized and used for columns on the move. A SPYDER system does not add as much value as it seems. Long range SAM can be sited on Indian territory and fired from there. No need for long range SAM to move with an Army column.

 

[garg_bharat]

India is considering S400 SAM system, and it is estimated that three S400 systems are adequate for Western theatre.

There is no reliable counter against all types of weapons that can be used in war. There is no point in wasting money.

The radar signature will be there even for a small radar. A moving army column can be detected from the radar signature of its SAM system. Passive sensors like IR/optical are better sometimes.

 

[garg_bharat]

I am really worried that army is not thinking about defence of cities and major troop concentrations. The first priority should be defence, not maneuver warfare.

Akash is needed for air defence of key areas like Srinagar and Pathankot. The mobility is a secondary issue.

 

[porky_kicker]

I am not sure if you are making any sense.

There is no weapon system out there which is "invincible". A convoy of SPYDER SAM can be destroyed by dumb rockets, or artillery shells. Each Israeli SAM system costs about 25M USD. Which can be killed by a 0.1M volley of rockets.

Indian army has a system called Strela which combines radar directed AA gun with low level AA missiles. This system can be modernized and used for columns on the move. A SPYDER system does not add as much value as it seems. Long range SAM can be sited on Indian territory and fired from there. No need for long range SAM to move with an Army column.

u r getting confused

suppose a person is diagnosed with pain due to appendicitis
what will a good effective doctor do ?
dope the person with pain killers for generalized treatment
or will the doctor go to the root of the problem and cut off the afflicted part via targetted pin point treatment .

same here
the enemies will collect info related to a specific system like rajendra radar which is the nerve center of akash sam, they take it down they will take down the akash system for good.
this is what they will seek to do . nothing surprising here. indian forces will do the same for similiar systems.

and so they will analyse its weakness to best of their capabilities via open source or espionage.
then they will go for a weapon system like DRFM BASED JAMMER based on already ope-rationalized systems designed to counter such threats and use it during war to exploit rajendra radar.

weather they will be successful will depend on the capabilities of the rajendra radar and Indian militaries pro-active counter measures acquired inorder to preemptively counter the acquisition of the jammers by the enemy.

as i said it is a cat and mouse game

Americans have the aegis system and Russians studied it and developed the klibney EW system inorder to disable it.

importantly success is not guaranteed for either parties because everybody keeps one or two tricks close to their sleeves. anybody who is better prepared will win.

only in a real war will we able to gauge the effectiveness of either of the systems till then we can only speculate

i hope this clears ur doubts my friend

 

[garg_bharat]

the enemies will collect info related to a specific system like rajendra radar which is the nerve center of akash sam, they take it down they down the akash system for good.

You are basically going all over the place. Any system can be defeated. I for one firmly believe that defensive systems eventually prove to be useless.

Akash system has same vulnerabilities that other similar systems have.

I have made it clear that SPYDER is not a solution to Army's mobility problem. SPYDER missiles are very expensive. The easiest way for enemy is to swamp a system even if it is effective. Once all missiles are fired (let us say on dummy missiles or glide bombs), the vehicle and convoy will be as unprotected as any.

Only large radars have the effectiveness in tracking and shooting down a large number of objects. And that is not SPYDER.

India will have to use ground based EW systems; as well as EW aircrafts; to win in the current environment. Getting sold on a single weapon system is a disaster.

 

[porky_kicker]

Indian army has a system called Strela which combines radar directed AA gun with low level AA missiles.

AFAIK strela is a russian/soviet manpad

I am really worried that army is not thinking about defence of cities and major troop concentrations. The first priority should be defence, not maneuver warfare.

Akash is needed for air defence of key areas like Srinagar and Pathankot. The mobility is a secondary issue.

that is the responsibility of the airforce , they will use fighters to enforce air superiority over Indian airspace etc.
u must have heard of BADZ and ADGES and INTEGRATED AIR COMMAND AND CONTROL SYSTEM (IACCS)

the armies mobile SAM units will accompany the armoured column etc and provide it with organic integral air defence.

You are basically going all over the place. Any system can be defeated. I for one firmly believe that defensive systems eventually prove to be useless.

Akash system has same vulnerabilities that other similar systems have.

I have made it clear that SPYDER is not a solution to Army's mobility problem. SPYDER missiles are very expensive. The easiest way for enemy is to swamp a system even if it is effective. Once all missiles are fired (let us say on dummy missiles or glide bombs), the vehicle and convoy will be as unprotected as any.

Only large radars have the effectiveness in tracking and shooting down a large number of objects. And that is not SPYDER.

India will have to use ground based EW systems; as well as EW aircrafts; to win in the current environment. Getting sold on a single weapon system is a disaster.

ur correct

and i fail to understand on what particular issue we are posting and conflicting on.

my friend all i know is both u and me will agree and enjoy on one thing that is India shooting down all paki planes and both of us enjoying barbecued chicken and patiala pegs over the bonfires of wreak-ages of downed paki planes. :biggrin2: :biggrin2:

PEACE BRO

 

[garg_bharat]

The mobility of Strela system currently with Indian Army.

 

[garg_bharat]

that is the responsibility of the airforce , they will use fighters to enforce air superiority over Indian airspace etc.
u must have heard of BADZ and ADGES and INTEGRATED AIR COMMAND AND CONTROL SYSTEM (IACCS)

the armies mobile SAM units will accompany the armoured column etc and provide it with organic integral air defence.

The SA3 and SA6 systems are outdated. Akash is in fact replacement of both SA3 and SA6. This is the reason large numbers of Akash are needed.

IAF cannot protect cities with fighters alone. Also IAF bases are mostly away from large population centers.
IAF SAM systems do not provide adequate coverage. It is Army that is needed due to its large size plus army installations are normally in the cities.

Large SAMs were with Air Force historically, which I think is not logical now. Situation changes with time. Now aerial threats are more - cruise missiles, glide bombs are added to aircraft.

 

[porky_kicker]

yes i too support lots of AKASH sam to be inducted.

and they must be upgraded in a block wise pattern .
with better technologies being included with each upgrade .

there is no food like home made food :biggrin2:

 

[garg_bharat]

SPYDER clearly needs stabilization. It cannot fire on the move.

Guidance
system
Infrared homing and electro-optical

The battlefield survivability of this system is equal to any soft skin truck.

This truck cannot cross streams and rivers on its own.

Maybe it can strike cruise missiles but how much that helps? Each shot of this system may cost more than the chinese short range cruise missile.

A cruise missile can be killed by a radar directed gun as well; and India knows how to make AK630 mounts, and should use that knowledge. 30mm bullets are far cheaper than SPYDER missile shots.

 

[garg_bharat]

Operational history of SPYDER SR:

During the Russo-Georgian war of 2008, it was believed that Georgia operated the SPYDER-SR.
The Georgian air force could have operated up to four launchers of the SPYDER-SR and it is likely that the system was lost in the conflict.

 

[porky_kicker]

the biggest earthquake has hit northeast just 30 minutes ago
5 storey buildings swinging like pendulum

 

[Yumdoot]

Akash MK2 was proposed with 40 KM range and larger operating profile. Do not know what happened to the project. It was to be commissioned in 2013.

Don't know about the progress on Akash-2 either. Just hoping for the best.

But this could easily mean any or all of, bunch of things:
1) That Akash-2 is indeed a seeker headed SAM and it is taking longer to make a seeker for it, which is understandable to me;
2) That Akash-2 is not needed immediately and earlier wishlist in terms of induction timelines, itself may have changed;
3) That upgrade is a really serious effort taking time and not just a matter of changing the casing and propellant throwing in a bunch of over the shelf ideas.

In any case there is a lot of growth potential in the Akash system and seeker need not be the only thing standing in the way of the timelines. All three armed forces are looking at a networked future keenly, which in itself is a stiff challenge. There may be work going on, on other such things.

 

[garg_bharat]

In any case there is a lot of growth potential in the Akash system and seeker need not be the only thing standing in the way of the timelines.

Yes a range of 35km and a semi-active seeker are desirable. But please understand that missile can be changed anytime. The radars and launchers will be not be built in a day. It takes time. We need to sustain production of the SAM system so that there are enough systems available when needed.