AK-203 Scrap

[Angel of War]

They’ll be laughing in the 2020s, this was already a clown show. Now their saving grace (SIG-716) is being thrown on the scrap heap because the IA aren’t even able to maintain their equipment properly

I'll have to agree with you . Army is using hi charge LMG rounds for Sigs . That's what makes the recoil so problematic . Our small arms procurement is effin messed up . The PLA's getting QBZ 191 and pakis are looking for a new 7.62*51mm rifle to replace their G3s . We are outgunned on a infantry to infantry basis .

 

[abingdonboy]

You're totlaly right . SLR is loads better than any AK for the role it was made for . Long range , lethal stopping power and accurate . That rifle was said to have killed elehants with it's hitting power .

We are thinking like problem solvers that see an issue and think about how to address it but the more I think about it the more I see that the point is the process not the solution

whilst they are deciding they get all the ‘incentives’ from the OEMs and don’t actually have to change the status quo that risks them being accountable for. If AK-203 is ordered now doubt within 5 years issues will he identified and 10-15 years later they’ll start a process to order their replacements, likely justifying it to ‘modernise’ and adopt the 6.8 round that has been in use by modern militaries for 2 decades at that point

 

[abingdonboy]

I'll have to agree with you . Army is using hi charge LMG rounds for Sigs . That's what makes the recoil so problematic . Our small arms procurement is effin messed up . The PLA's getting QBZ 191 and pakis are looking for a new 7.62*51mm rifle to replace their G3s . We are outgunned on a infantry to infantry basis .

Either they are criminally inept and the Indian military is little more than a paper tiger or they are paid off to be this useless

Likely a combination of the two

 

[India Super Power]

Although @Angel of War has often told that army is not much focused in CI/CT and main concentration is conventional wars
But I have a feeling that army is really too much into coin ops bcoz I don't see any purpose of 7.62×39
When porkies will be getting in 7.62×51 and China has 5.8 rounds

 

[Angel of War]

Although @Angel of War has often told that army is not much focused in CI/CT and main concentration is conventional wars
But I have a feeling that army is really too much into coin ops bcoz I don't see any purpose of 7.62×39
When porkies will be getting in 7.62×51 and China has 5.8 rounds

army is getting 7.62*39mm because they themselves don't know what to buy . The main focus continues to be maintaining a detterence posture and that's what our pattern of deployment suggests . But they don't know what weapon they want to fight with. Replacing the SLR in the first place was a mistake . They could have redesigned it and modified it as @Love Charger has suggested

 

[India Super Power]

army is getting 7.62*39mm because they themselves don't know what to buy . The main focus continues to be maintaining a detterence posture and that's what our pattern of deployment suggests so . But they don't know what weapon they want to fight with. Replacing the SLR in the first place was a mistake .

What do they mean they don't know they must have been accessing other militaries if not then they must they have many options and if they are serious they could get an indigenous ones
I don't think they are confused
Either they are not aware or they know everything but there is too much politics into it
I really don't know

 

[abingdonboy]

What do they mean they don't know they must have been accessing other militaries if not then they must they have many options and if they are serious they could get an indigenous ones
I don't think they are confused
Either they are not aware or they know everything but there is too much politics into it
I really don't know

No IA officer of the last 50 years has fought a conventional war

maybe a good a$$ whooping will wake these clowns up

 

[India Super Power]

No IA officer of the last 50 years has fought a conventional war

maybe a good a$$ whooping will wake these clowns up

Even there is know hope of that
How much have they have done on aircraft, artillery and submarine front kargil war committee report

 

[Angel of War]

No IA officer of the last 50 years has fought a conventional war

maybe a good a$$ whooping will wake these clowns up

blame the high ups , not the officers on ground - my dad was infact telling me about this a few days ago . I can share the story with you regarding the same in a private convo . It's a very interesting one

 

[India Super Power]

No IA officer of the last 50 years has fought a conventional war

maybe a good a$$ whooping will wake these clowns up

Do u think will it be right to buy ofb 7.62×51 rifle instead of sig 716 if we see present scenario

 

[Angel of War]

Do u think will it be right to buy ofb 7.62×51 rifle instead of sig 716 if we see present scenario

only MoD and god knows .

 

[abingdonboy]

Do u think will it be right to buy ofb 7.62×51 rifle instead of sig 716 if we see present scenario

It shouldn’t have the same ammo issues ( I think) but who knows? I don’t think the IA even knows what they want or need at this point, the issues with the SIGs are able to be addressed and it’s not the fault of the design at all , in fact I’m surprised that SIG hasn’t issued a statement as of yet given the amount of bad coverage they have gotten thanks to this noise. Makes me think there’s little to it

 

[vidhwanshak]

I'll have to agree with you . Army is using hi charge LMG rounds for Sigs . That's what makes the recoil so problematic . Our small arms procurement is effin messed up . The PLA's getting QBZ 191 and pakis are looking for a new 7.62*51mm rifle to replace their G3s . We are outgunned on a infantry to infantry basis .

not only in infantry but also in artillery

 

[Angel of War]

not only in infantry but also in artillery

Artillery has a very bright future thankfully . Don't worry much about it. Artillery , engineers , Signals , aviation are having a good future ahead of them

 

[vampyrbladez]

Current CG Rcl guy doesn't get extra rifle, just a pistol. Any sources as to your said ORBAT. I am damn sure sigs are just spread among units and there are no kind of specified structures for the units. Guys in IA are well known to implement things in chalta hai- jugaad attitude, atleast very true for emergency purchases.

Anyway, going to 7.62rus from 5.56 nato is a downgrade in any conceivable way.

No 'sources' but an educated guess.

It makes no sense to have 3 different calibres in one squad (5.56x45 mm, 7.62x51 mm and 7.62x39 mm) in addition to 9x19 mm.

7.62x39 mm = .300 Blackout, perfect for CQB and upto 300 m.

The arrangement I made was based on the least amount of effort Indian Army would need to make to have a modern fighting unit.

I've yet to see any UGBL for an MLOK based free floating rifle which can be appropriated cheaply. Makes the most sense to give 1 x AK 203 UGBL to every maneuver element.

We have also seen Sig 716i DMR configuration in certain cases.

You don't need an assistant LMG Gunner when using the IMI Negev NG7. That is essentially a rifle.

RCL carrier can be made to carry a rifle.

The ammunition carrier can be made to carry a Sig 716i to act as a spotter for the Fire Support Element.

This as it is would need no extra equipment or guns. Perfect for the lazy SOBs behind the INSAS disaster.

So to re-phrase :

Squad Leader
1 x (AK 203) (7.62x39 mm)
1 x (Browning Hi Power) (9x19 mm)

Maneuver Element 1 :

Rifleman
1 x AK 203 (7.62x39 mm) (UGBL)

Rifleman
2 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm)

Maneuver Element 2 :

Rifleman
1 x AK 203 (7.62x39 mm) (UGBL)

Rifleman
2 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm) (1 DMR Config)
1 x Browning Hi Power (9x19 mm) (2IC)

Fire Support :

LMG Gunner
1 x Negev NG7 LMG/SAW (7.62x51 mm)

Rifleman / Missileer
1 x Carl Gustav RCL (84 mm)
1 x AK 203 (7.62x39 mm)

Rifleman/ Ammunition Carrier
1 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm)

 

[Love Charger]

It all started 9 years ago, a report by TOi said army will change rifles for good .
5 contenders were there, I was in class 5 or 6 i dont remember.
After a long process , in which we have seen news of all those proposals being junked, silence eerie silence during which a rifle called mciws was presented, nothing came out of it.
Then around 2015 or 16 , excalibure will replace insas.
Then a again a tender for two rifles one 7m62 51 amd other 7m62 39.
Then silence, suddenly in 2019 around, we hear of sig 716 patrol g 2 .
I resign my self to this dejected indifference to this matter ( not that mine or any body else "s opinion matters to the people bestowed with infinite wisdom in the army gsqr department)
Then the sig rifles come, I become happy but always my mind was pestered by this deal , after all 72000 rifles for common infantry men was unheard of , this sig deal was unprecedented .
Around 2020s we hear the clamour of Russians selling us ak 203 as the standard issue rifle .
In hindsight, Kalashnikov did intend to setup a rifle plant in guzerat, instead it went for amethi, probably a non descript dusty town in the vast plains of northern hindustan .
The Russians dithered , the deal was always stuck .now after 1 year of signing this deal , we are delaying it .
For we can't incur the wrath of uncle sam , not yet .
Lets see , what happens next. I give indian army another 30 years to get its act around .
To standardize and to overhaul its fighting strategies, like for example , integrated theatre commands , cough cough ( a silent sob grasps me ,for the untimely death of general rawat ,without whom these reforms will never take place)
Actually its in our blood , the fighting men of india and martial tribes of india while individually very brave always lacked uniformity
I predict this prophecy here on 16th may , hour past midnight x that army will make a pigs breakfast of this rifle saga .
Its eerily similar to mughal army under muhammd shah rangila, the drunk emperor of Hindustan.

 

[Love Charger]

@vampyrbladez. What's so funny about it ?
I didn't write it as sarcasm , iam a mere commoner who must not dare to accuse army of any wrong doing

 

[Love Charger]

Army is unweidly and huge , what more I can say
It look like a sea of armed men with variety of spears, javeling ,swords , katars and other weapons of yore .more nowadays

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

No 'sources' but an educated guess.

It makes no sense to have 3 different calibres in one squad (5.56x45 mm, 7.62x51 mm and 7.62x39 mm) in addition to 9x19 mm.

7.62x39 mm = .300 Blackout, perfect for CQB and upto 300 m.

The arrangement I made was based on the least amount of effort Indian Army would need to make to have a modern fighting unit.

I've yet to see any UGBL for an MLOK based free floating rifle which can be appropriated cheaply. Makes the most sense to give 1 x AK 203 UGBL to every maneuver element.

We have also seen Sig 716i DMR configuration in certain cases.

You don't need an assistant LMG Gunner when using the IMI Negev NG7. That is essentially a rifle.

RCL carrier can be made to carry a rifle.

The ammunition carrier can be made to carry a Sig 716i to act as a spotter for the Fire Support Element.

This as it is would need no extra equipment or guns. Perfect for the lazy SOBs behind the INSAS disaster.

So to re-phrase :

Squad Leader
1 x (AK 203) (7.62x39 mm)
1 x (Browning Hi Power) (9x19 mm)

Maneuver Element 1 :

Rifleman
1 x AK 203 (7.62x39 mm) (UGBL)

Rifleman
2 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm)

Maneuver Element 2 :

Rifleman
1 x AK 203 (7.62x39 mm) (UGBL)

Rifleman
2 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm) (1 DMR Config)
1 x Browning Hi Power (9x19 mm) (2IC)

Fire Support :

LMG Gunner
1 x Negev NG7 LMG/SAW (7.62x51 mm)

Rifleman / Missileer
1 x Carl Gustav RCL (84 mm)
1 x AK 203 (7.62x39 mm)

Rifleman/ Ammunition Carrier
1 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm)

Things like these will have to be wargamed in practice to check if the work or not, could be one of the options.

 

[vidhwanshak]

Artillery has a very bright future thankfully . Don't worry much about it. Artillery , engineers , Signals , aviation are having a good future ahead of them

only if Army is willing to induct ATAGS.

And we seriously lack SP Artillery. PLA has them and Pakistanis have also inducted them in large numbers.

Ground-based radars like Swathi will easily locate the location of these batteries and their positions will be vulnerable to enemy arty as well. And this is where SP artillery come in play. It will allow them to "shoot-and-scoot" thereby avoiding counter-battery fire.

I think that our towed batteries will be destroyed by PLA easily in case of conflict.

It will be interesting to see what Army is thinking about this. I just hope that they don't make a mess just like they did in the rifles.


I have no idea about engnrs or aviation but in Signal core there is a lot of work to do.
We don't have a dedicated cyber warfare unit. You know what happend in 2019 Indo-Pak showdown and in 2020 Galwan.
We are heavily dependent on Israel for ELINT and SIGINT equipments. Almost every equipment is imported from Israel.
We don't have a robust ISTAR systems and communications.

Alot needs to be done by Army, DRDO and MoD for the signal corp if we really want to dominate China.