Agni V Missile

[keshtopatel]

1) I am not going to comment on comparison of Western/Russian ICBMs with Indians as Indian ICBM is still on paper now Nor I will agree on ranting against Indian capabilities compared to western/russians.

Errr.....Paper means on drawing boards.....but you are unaware that A5 is ready to fly within few months and its 90 percent errect!

The Indian Agni-V intermediate range ballistic missile is ready is ready for its first test, Defence Minister AK Antony said in Hyerabad on Friday. The actual test, however, is likely to be conducted only sometime in January-March next year. DRDO sources confirmed once again that Spring 2011 was the likely time that the 5,000-km range weapon would first be tested. Notwithstanding the Minister's comments, DRDO sources indicated that the first Agni-V was about 90 per cent complete, with minor work on the missile's third stage and heatshield assemblies remaining. The team is also working overtime to ensure there are no quality control issues that have dogged two previous tests under the Agni programme. By November, the first missile should be complete in all respects for its first flight test, though a comprehensive routine of subsystem tests will continue till the end of the year.

2) I never said the CEP of A5 will HAVE TO BE 100m

Revisit your quotes, just scroll back!

Yes it is desired & mandatory up to the level user i.e IA/IN demands.

First you have said its mandatory - desregarding the US-Russian benchmarks which are working above 150.....

And then!

I would like to see CEP of A5 anything between 50-90m

Is it QED time?

3) The 200m or any other figure if approved by Indian armed user will be acceptable.

Are you privy to IA´s procurement specifications about A5, if so, give me details, I am not?

4) Lesser the CEP of A5 larger the Nuke Force serving India

How is the number-quantity of Indian nukes dependent upon just the CEP if not fissile material?

 

[keshtopatel]

let me tell you that ISRO is strictly prohibited to help DRDO or any other defence agency in the country

How? from where did u learn this my freind?

 

[nrj]

Errr.....Paper means on drawing boards.....but you are unaware that A5 is ready to fly within few months and its 90 percent errect!

Thank you for that. Actually I was one of the first highlighting the recent A5 readiness news on this forum. However A5 yet to see actual launch.


Now you have comfortably dropped my many earlier posts regarding CEP, CEP figures, desirability & accepted figures by Armed forces in your comments. So putting them again SERIALLY.

Its early to comment on AGNI V's CEP. We will come to know about actual figure only after first test. A3's CEP is tested 40meters making it one of the most accurate missile present.

We can expect similar performance from A5 as almost 60% blocks are taken similar from A3 but lets wait to see how it unfolds.

no doubt even with multiple warheads, IA/IN will demand for maximum accuracy from A5 before it place any orders. So lets just wait to see have things shape up here on A5's accuracy.

Yes it is desired & mandatory up to the level user i.e IA/IN demands.

With higher accuracy India can use smaller nuclear warhead still preserving the lethality of strike. This in turn resulting in capability to field much larger Nuke force. With smaller payload even AGNI-2 can reach targets beyond 3500Km. A5 with such smaller payload & better accuracy can targets much beyond its specific range with larger warhead.

Massive Nuke retaliation or limited conventional attack with long range missile depends on situation. With any option, job must be done so special care is taken on Accuracy parameters.

Now on CEP figures -

I would like to see CEP of A5 anything between 50-90m. But any figure above & around 100m should be acceptable IMO. But I am not exactly authority or qualified to assert on that. I will trust the figure IA/IN approves.

I am not going to agree whatever number you come up with nor will claim a specific CEP figure. The approving authority is Indian armed user not anyone here or me.

So I iterate the same think that CEP of A5 can be around & above 100m IMO. IA/IN will never accept any Nuke missile compromising accuracy factor. The number mentioned above is my individual opinion & shouldn't necessarily be exact reality.
__________________________________________________________________________

Are you privy to IA´s procurement specifications about A5, if so, give me details, I am not?

Even if, no reason to give you the privilege. I totally trust the accuracy standard demanded by IA/IN from DRDO for A5. So I have repeatedly said that User will make the accuracy call with specific figure not me.

How is the number-quantity of Indian nukes dependent upon just the CEP if not fissile material?

Very first, the Nuke Force number does not ENTIRELY depend on 'just the CEP' if that is going to be capital on the point of discussion for you.

Although Accuracy is the major variable in deciding the Nuke Force size of nation like India.
With higher accuracy Strategic Force Command can assign smaller nuclear warhead to long-range missile still meeting the very purpose of strike (preemptive/retaliatory) as the geographic target location will be dead hit considering the accuracy parameter. On the other hand since having smaller payload, actual range of missile will be enhanced. Highly accurate missile increases the "kill efficiency" of the weapon.

India can field larger Nuke force using smaller yield (fusion/fissile, Plutonium/Lithium Deuteride) material with higher efficiency. Less accurate missile will require larger payload to achieve the similar lethality. With smaller payload the Agni missiles can hit targets beyond their declared specific range.

The above colored part is nothing but elaboration of my earlier posts stating the same thing that with lesser error in accuracy India can have larger Nuke Force.

 

[keshtopatel]

Thank you for that. Actually I was one of the first highlighting the recent A5 readiness news on this forum. However A5 yet to see actual launch.

Ohh and despite that you have the audacity to say the followings:

as Indian ICBM is still on paper now

Err ....does it mean its on paper-drawing board stage as envisaged by you?

Man you have just contradicted yourself here big time.....
You should know what you write...
For the rest I will pick up the thread material tommorow as my wife beacons me to the bed....

Hence Sayonara...

 

[nrj]

Ohh and despite that you have the audacity to say the followings:

I won't exactly consider A5 a 5000-6000 Km range missile a cross-continent hitting world-class absolute ICBM, deterrent arm even if Media & fanboys start jumping calling it All-Killer ICBM. Surya program if in real can be ICBM. Future Agni variants have real ICBM. GOI has not even considered 8000 Km range missile as of late 2009. For symbolism, recent news can be a good start -
::India does not have an ICBM programme::

Man you have just contradicted yourself here big time.....
You should know what you write...

Again you have comfortably dropped the rest part of my post while making a loud statement. I have not contradicted any of my post. I have repeatedly highlighted it in more comprehensible form as I can till the level it can be on a logical discussion.

For the rest I will pick up the thread material tommorow as my wife beacons me to the bed....

OT Alert. I don't care any of it.

Hence Sayonara...

Whatever..............

 

[charlie]

How? from where did u learn this my freind?

read virkaram sarabhai history and abdul kalam book "wings of fire" and think for yourself we already have PSLV now if that was allowed then the DRDO can reengineered the PSLV itself to make it a missile , it's kind of a tactics to counter the americans when they say, this tech can be used for developing missile so we can say hey both the agency are different and ISRO dosent support any other defence agency but there was one loop hole the scientist were directly transferred from ISRO to DRDO

 

[SANJAY AKKARA]

There is a russian link ,,,somewhere on the net where the range of agni 3 was stated to be @ 4000kms
now for agni 5 a 1.5ton warhead and offically stated range of 5500kms.....translates to a cool 7000kms
with 500kg warhead....its understandable...since i dont think the strategic group that controls our nuclear delivery systems would risk bringing the agni 5 too close to the lac..meanwhile i woulndnt be suprised if agni slbm is also in advanced stages of development,approx range @ 3000-3500kms
crystal gazing to just 2 to 3yrs from now would be interestng ........

 

[keshtopatel]

I won't exactly consider A5 a 5000-6000 Km range missile a cross-continent hitting world-class absolute ICBM,

What is the definition of ICBM - let the encyclopedia explain!

(Military) intercontinental ballistic missile: a missile with a range greater than 5500 km

Now as per you the missile travelling up to 6000 Km is not ICBM, then you just got defeated by an encyclopedia.

And on the CEP you seem to be clueless as to what is the correct CEP requirement of IA, so why talk?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

This discussion of ICBM capability is irrelevant, if India can place satellites in orbit and send Chandradayan to the moon the question of Indian ICBM capability is answered. Cutting the AGNI payload in half will give a 11,000km range ballistic missile.

 

[keshtopatel]

read virkaram sarabhai history and abdul kalam book "wings of fire" and think for yourself we already have PSLV now if that was allowed then the DRDO can reengineered the PSLV itself to make it a missile , it's kind of a tactics to counter the americans when they say, this tech can be used for developing missile so we can say hey both the agency are different and ISRO dosent support any other defence agency but there was one loop hole the scientist were directly transferred from ISRO to DRDO

What makes you think I have not read them! BTW, for yr info, wings of fire is 11 years old and ever since too much water has flown under the bridge, moreover the book is saying nothing of such things as purported by you so why rely on such book ? Anyways, even so you failed to deliver the qualified answer when you say the following:

let me tell you that ISRO is strictly prohibited to help DRDO or any other defence agency in the country

Prohibited by whom?

 

[nrj]

What is the definition of ICBM - let the encyclopedia explain!

Now as per you the missile travelling up to 6000 Km is not ICBM, then you just got defeated by an encyclopedia.

I don't care who is defeated. Capabilities doesn't credit the existence of program. A5 is no ICBM program, it can be with modifications in demanding situations. GOI/DRDO is the authority to comment on its existing program.


::India does not have an ICBM programme::

And on the CEP you seem to be clueless as to what is the correct CEP requirement of IA,

Again you dropped the logical argument . Talk in absolutes.

so why talk?

You can refrain if you want. Doesn't bother me.

 

[keshtopatel]

This discussion of ICBM capability is irrelevant, if India can place satellites in orbit and send Chandradayan to the moon the question of Indian ICBM capability is answered. Cutting the AGNI payload in half will give a 11,000km range ballistic missile.

Exactely so!

But who will you say what to the following poster:

I won't exactly consider A5 a 5000-6000 Km range missile a cross-continent hitting world-class absolute ICBM, deterrent arm even if Media & fanboys start jumping calling it All-Killer ICBM.

Thats the reason he is getting some knowledge punishment here!

 

[Yusuf]

I don't think cutting the payload by half will double the range. Its a wrong notion that everyone has. Range would increase by 20% or so.
My car with all 5 passengers gives me about 13 kms a liter. When I go alone it does not give me 30 a liter

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I don't think cutting the payload by half will double the range. Its a wrong notion that everyone has. Range would increase by 20% or so.
My car with all 5 passengers gives me about 13 kms a liter. When I go alone it does not give me 30 a liter

This is the relation

 

[Tshering22]

Instead of developing one type of missile for each range limit, why didn't DRDO consider building Agni-III as 5,000 Km and Agni-V as 8,000+Km once and for all? We don't need to make a missile for every 1,000 km interval and waste money. The primary threat target that can mellow PLA aggression down is to make them know that Beijing and Shanghai are easily within our range. I hope they are doing something on MIRV technology as well.

We don't need ICBMs beyond 8,000 Km limit for now and our priority should be getting to that limit and deploying them in enough numbers to keep a stockpile of conventional as well as nuclear armed missiles separate.

 

[Yusuf]

Cost is a factor Tsher. Agni 2 was designed for a range that can hit anywhere in pakistan from well within indian territory. Agni 3 was a stop gap measure to have some form of deterrence against china till a bigger range missile came along. China too has a 2k range missile though all its major targets are ICBM range.

 

[keshtopatel]

I don't care who is defeated. Capabilities doesn't credit the existence of program. A5 is no ICBM program, it can be with modifications in demanding situations. GOI/DRDO is the authority to comment on its existing program.

I am not saying whether Agni is or is not ICBM - It was yr 6000 Km wrong conclusion which led me to fetch you a encyclopedia definition.

Any balistic missile with 6000 Km range is a ICBM, go figure!

Again you dropped the logical argument . Talk in absolutes.

If you dont know the requirements of IA on CEP, why you are harping on the same here, again n again? You say its mandatory I say no its not, and the examples of USA-Russia given. Not only that when Pritivi was inducted, it was inducted with 500 CEP for yr info. India with 200 Kt capability (source Anil Kakodkar) can have five such MIRVs in its payload, now thats megaton punch. Hence we should not make CEP factor mandatory because our will be a second strike with massive (unacceptable) danage, we are not going to surgically strike our enemy with NFU in place.

Everyone in the Pentagon n state department have shown concern on India´s PSLV-GSLV (which are just screw drivers away to become ICBMs) to be deadly force against the US interest, should there be crisis.

Its put up or shut up time....

 

[Yusuf]

LF, considering that that chart is authentic, if you see that when the payload is reduced from 1.5 tons to .75 tons, the range increases by 40 - 50% not double.

 

[keshtopatel]

Instead of developing one type of missile for each range limit, why didn't DRDO consider building Agni-III as 5,000 Km and Agni-V as 8,000+Km once and for all? We don't need to make a missile for every 1,000 km interval and waste money. The primary threat target that can mellow PLA aggression down is to make them know that Beijing and Shanghai are easily within our range. I hope they are doing something on MIRV technology as well.

We don't need ICBMs beyond 8,000 Km limit for now and our priority should be getting to that limit and deploying them in enough numbers to keep a stockpile of conventional as well as nuclear armed missiles separate.

They are tailor made to various threats - its a threat perception which is the key word here.

 

[Agantrope]

This is the relation

I Think this chart is made by the Arun Vishwa karma. Simply this chart is a BS