Agni V Missile

[nrj]

Regardless the type of use by the long-range missile being Preemptive or retaliatory, CEP of missile has to be as low as possible. 0m CEP is an ideal parameter pursued while designing the missile operation.

Now A3 has shown absolutely remarkable CEP of 40m so far making it one of the most accurate missile even when it doesnt rank among ICBM. A5 (ICBM) has taken up more than 60% blocks similar from A3 so corresponding performance is expected from A5 in ideal condition.

And no doubt even with multiple warheads, IA/IN will demand for maximum accuracy from A5 before it place any orders. DRDO & labs have good record on accuracy of missiles. Brahmos is claimed to have ability of hitting 1.5m*1.5m object. So lets just wait to see have things shape up here on A5's accuracy.

 

[keshtopatel]

Regardless the type of use by the long-range missile being Preemptive or retaliatory, CEP of missile has to be as low as possible. 0m CEP is an ideal parameter pursued while designing the missile operation.

Now A3 has shown absolutely remarkable CEP of 40m so far making it one of the most accurate missile even when it doesnt rank among ICBM. A5 (ICBM) has taken up more than 60% blocks similar from A3 so corresponding performance is expected from A5 in ideal condition.

And no doubt even with multiple warheads, IA/IN will demand for maximum accuracy from A5 before it place any orders. DRDO & labs have good record on accuracy of missiles. Brahmos is claimed to have ability of hitting 1.5m*1.5m object. So lets just wait to see have things shape up here on A5's accuracy.

A5¨s accuracy is desired but not mandatory.

Please dont tell me you wanna attack Nato headquarters or the US of A with first strike (which is not an option anyway)......Brahmos is not a IRBM or ICBM, cruise missiles are required to be precise anyway........Once India has a first strike agenda, I will change my views, as of now we are not able to attack even Pakistan with its repeated assault on India´s soil.

Massive nuke retaliation of India against its enemy with numbers (warhead) will do the job, for MAD theory works

 

[nrj]

A5¨s accuracy is desired but not mandatory.

Yes it is desired & mandatory up to the level user i.e IA/IN demands.

With higher accuracy India can use smaller nuclear warhead still preserving the lethality of strike. This in turn resulting in capability to field much larger Nuke force. With smaller payload even AGNI-2 can reach targets beyond 3500Km. A5 with such smaller payload & better accuracy can targets much beyond its specific range with larger warhead.

Please dont tell me you wanna attack Nato headquarters or the US of A with first strike (which is not an option anyway)......

Indian establishment & armed forces have their choice. No one ever knows.

Brahmos is not a IRBM or ICBM, cruise missiles are required to be precise anyway.......Once India has a first strike agenda, I will change my views,.

India has NFU on Nuke attack as of now. It can be withdrawn in demanding circumstances. Being an individual you can change your views anytime, facts remain unchanged.

as of now we are not able to attack even Pakistan with its repeated assault on India´s soil..

Totally OFF-TOPIC. Actions do not speak on India's capability to strike Pak or any country.

Massive nuke retaliation of India against its enemy with numbers (warhead) will do the job, for MAD theory works

Massive Nuke retaliation or limited conventional attack with long range missile depends on situation. With any option, job must be done so special care is taken on Accuracy parameters.

 

[Yusuf]

First or second strike, low CEP is mandatory I feel. Nrj has already hit on the points. If we have to strike second in retaliation we can maximize the "kill" by hitting water supply and dams which is likely to kill more people with radiated water than just a hit downtown. Now with accurate MIRVs we have to strike Beijing, where one hits its water supply, one its electricity supply and three hitting vital parts of the city accurately, it will cause great damage. Compare that with a Chinese strike on delhi with its single warhead DF21 which has a CEP of 700m and it wants to hit lutyens delhi. It falls off a quarter of a km away. Pretty sure a lot of the intended target will survive the blast wave which causes destruction. The objective of a nuke strike is not just to kill hundreds of thousands of people but also critically damage facilities and intended targets. If the aim is just to kill people then CEP does not matter. But to teach the enemy a lesson, a few critical targets should be accurately be targeted and destroyed.

 

[keshtopatel]

Yes it is desired & mandatory up to the level user i.e IA/IN demands.

With higher accuracy India can use smaller nuclear warhead still preserving the lethality of strike. This in turn resulting in capability to field much larger Nuke force. With smaller payload even AGNI-2 can reach targets beyond 3500Km. A5 with such smaller payload & better accuracy can targets much beyond its specific range with larger warhead.



Indian establishment & armed forces have their choice. No one ever knows.



India has NFU on Nuke attack as of now. It can be withdrawn in demanding circumstances. Being an individual you can change your views anytime, facts remain unchanged.



Totally OFF-TOPIC. Actions do not speak on India's capability to strike Pak or any country.




Massive Nuke retaliation or limited conventional attack with long range missile depends on situation. With any option, job must be done so special care is taken on Accuracy parameters.

What do you think the acceptable A5 CEP should be?

What is the definition of CEP?

 

[sayareakd]

Circular Error Probable (CEP)

A measure of missile accuracy. A missile's CEP is the radius of a circle around the target in which 50% of the warheads aimed at that target will land.

 

[nrj]

What do you think the acceptable A5 CEP should be?

I would like to see CEP of A5 anything between 50-90m. But any figure above & around 100m should be acceptable IMO. But I am not exactly authority or qualified to assert on that. I will trust the figure IA/IN approves.

What is the definition of CEP?

In the military science of ballistics, Circular Error Probability (CEP) is defined as the radius of a circle into which a missile, bomb, or projectile will land at least half the time.

For example, an ICBM warhead with a CEP of 100 meters will impact within 100 meters of the target point in at least 50 percent of all attempts.

The impact of munitions near the target tends to be normally distributed around the aim point, with most reasonably close, progressively fewer and fewer further away, and very few indeed at long distance.

A mathematician might characterize this pattern by its standard deviation, but a more intuitive method is to state the radius of a circle within which 50 percent of rounds will land. That radius is the circular error probable, commonly abbreviated to CEP.

Mathematically other accuracy parameters are also considered like, Linear Error Probability (LEP) & Spherical error probability (SEP). In general for purely computation purpose following relation holds true,

SEP=0.76*LEP (Vertical) + 0.87*CEP (Horizontal)

For most weapons, the CEP increases with range, so it should either be stated for a particular range, or as an angle.

If CEP is say 'N' meters 50 percent of rounds land within 'N' meters of the target, 43 percent between 'N' and twice that distance and 7 percent between two and three times that distance. If misses were exactly normally distributed as in this theory, then the proportion of rounds that land farther than three times the CEP from the target is less than 0.2%.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Agni-V IRBM - a knol by Vijainder K Thakur

Agni-V IRBM
The canisterized intermediate range nuclear capable Agni-V missile is also referred to as Agni-III+
The Indian Government sanctioned Rs2,500 crore to develop the Agni V missile, with a range of 5,000km in 2008. The missile is expected to be ready for testing in the 2010-11 time frame.
Contents

* At a Glance
* Introduction
* Navigation System
* Canistered Missile
* Operational Status
* Use of Composites
* MIRV Warheads
* Canister Launch

At a Glance

Range 5,000 km
Stages Three
Warhead Weight 1.5 ton
Warhead Type Single
MIRV warheads under development.
Total Weight 51 ton
Dimensions 22m long, 2m diameter
Status Design completed. First Test - Early 2011

Introduction
The Indian Government sanctioned Rs2,500 crore to develop the Agni V missile, with a range of 5,000km in 2008. (The Agni V is also referred to as Agni III+).

The missile is being developed by adding an all composite third state to the two-stage, 3, 500km Agni III missile.

The missile will have 60% commonality of components with Agni III, including its ring laser gyroscope and accelerometer.

The gyroscope was developed by Research Centre Imarat (RCI), sister laboratory of ASL, and is part of DRDO's missile complex in Hyderabad.

The ring laser is also fitted on the Shourya tactical missile.

Navigation System
Agni-V uses the same navigation system as the one fitted on Agni-III.

It uses a ring laser gyroscope that was developed by Research Centre Imarat (RCI), sister laboratory of ASL, a part of DRDO's missile complex in Hyderabad.

The ring laser is also fitted on the Shourya tactical missile.

Canistered Missile
It will be canistered missile allowing for launch from multiple platforms.

Operational Status
The design of the missile has been completed. Subsystem testing and material cutting was in progress as on February 10, 2010.

The missile is expected to be ready for testing in the 2010-11 time frame.

Speaking to the press on February 10, scientific advisor to defence minister V.K. Saraswat said:

"Agni-V has crossed material cutting stage and subsystem testing is going on. Agni-V is derivative of Agni-III. Practically it is the same missile but it is five metres longer and one tonne heavier. Its navigation system is same.

"Sixty percent missile is available and we are just adding another stage. It will be a three-stage missile and it is the first time we will be building a three-stage missile."

Use of Composites
Besides the all composite third stage, the second stage of the missile will also use composites to save weight and allow for the addition of a third stage.

Talking to The Hindu in November, Avinash Chander, director of the Agni program and of the Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL) said the Agni V design has been completed and the first development flight test will be conducted in 2010.

MIRV Warheads
VK Saraswat, DRDO's Chief Controller of Missiles and Strategic Systems, told Business Standard in May 2008 that DRDO is working on a 5,000kme range Agni-5 missile, with multiple warheads (MIRVs) that can maneuver and send out decoys to confuse enemy anti-missile defenses.

In October 2008, ASL Director Avinash Chander told Business Standard:

"We have made major progress on the MIRVs in the last two years."

MIRV technology is very similar to the multiple satellite launch technology that ISRO has mastered and repeatedly demonstrated using its PSLV launcher. However, warhead separation requires a higher degree of accuracy than satellite separation. MIRV is effective only when accuracy of the individual warheads is high, allowing relatively small warheads to be targeted at widely dispersed targets.

MIRVed missiles deployed on nuclear submarines represent a potent second strike capability in support of a no first use nuclear doctrine like the one embraced by India.

Canister Launch
The mobile missile will be the first Indian strategic missile capable of canister launch, allowing it to be deployed and launched from any part of the country. A canister launch capability is also compatible with reports that the missile will ultimately equip India's newly launched nuclear powered submarine - INS Arihant.

Placing the missile in a hermetically sealed canister facilitates long term storage. The missile canister is made of maraging steel allowing it to withstand the 300 to 400 t shock generated when the 50-ton missile.is ejected out.

All future missiles will be canister based ASL Director Avinash Chander told Business Standard in October 2009,

"The Agni-5 is specially tailored for road-mobility," explains Avinash Chander, Director, ASL. "With the canister having been successfully developed, all India's future land-based strategic missiles will be canisterised as well".

Canister technology was initially developed for the naval variant of Brahmos missile. The technology was completely mastered during the development of the K-15 missiles that will initially equip INS Arihant.

 

[keshtopatel]

I would like to see CEP of A5 anything between 50-90m. But any figure above & around 100m should be acceptable IMO

So this is your threshold on CEP, what if I doubled it to 200M ?

What would you say?

 

[nrj]

I would like to see CEP of A5 anything between 50-90m. But any figure above & around 100m should be acceptable IMO

So this is your threshold on CEP, what if I doubled it to 200M ?

What would you say?

I have answered you my opinion on CEP with factual analysis of same in detail. That gives idea comprehensible the the average mind. I will put respective view only after actual/simulated test declaration. Case rested.

 

[keshtopatel]

CEP with factual analysis of same in detail

What you have done in essence is copy pasted the stuff word by word from the following:

StateMaster - Encyclopedia: Circular error probable

I could have done that too, but I waited for your definition.

Now the nuts n bolts of CEP issue and its relevance.

The CEP probablity allows 50% room for errors, in other words if out of proposed 20 strikes, if ten of them fell within the parameters - ITS OKEY!

So where is the exactitude!

In your copy pasted words:

For example, an ICBM warhead with a CEP of 100 meters will impact within 100 meters of the target point in at least 50 percent of all attempts.

And the reason I asked for 200M limit on misile, you were evasive, yet reiterated that in yr opinion its just about 100. Fine.

Now tell me you, if according to USA and Russia (both erstwhile superpowers - US defacto superpower now) can work with CEP figures above that of 100 (MinutemanIII = 150 n TOPOL = 200), what is the problem with India who buys thier war material all the time from them? If the superpowers can live up to this threshold, the fairness demands that you should agree that 200M can be agreeable for India too.

You rested yr case prematurely.......

 

[nrj]

CEP with factual analysis of same in detail

What you have done in essence is copy pasted the stuff word by word from the following:

StateMaster - Encyclopedia: Circular error probable

I could have done that too, but I waited for your definition.

Now the nuts n bolts of CEP issue and its relevance.

The CEP probablity allows 50% room for errors, in other words if out of proposed 20 strikes, if ten of them fell within the parameters - ITS OKEY!

So where is the exactitude!

In your copy pasted words:

For example, an ICBM warhead with a CEP of 100 meters will impact within 100 meters of the target point in at least 50 percent of all attempts.

And the reason I asked for 200M limit on misile, you were evasive, yet reiterated that in yr opinion its just about 100. Fine.

That is what highlighted in my post & saya's earlier remark.

Now tell me you, if according to USA and Russia (both erstwhile superpowers) can work with CEP figures above that of 100 (MinutemanIII = 150 n TOPOL = 200),

Its not required for India to walk the lines of Superpowers (?) & keep the aspirations limited to the parameters of their missile systems.

what is the problem with India who buys thier war material all the time from them?

Weapons? ICBMs are not sold. This is totally irrelevant.

If the superpowers can live up to this threshold, the fairness demands that you should agree that 200M can be agreeable for India too.

What superpowers do is not related here. I am not going to agree whatever number you come up with nor will claim a specific CEP figure. The approving authority is Indian armed user not anyone here or me.

 

[keshtopatel]

Its not required for India to walk the lines of Superpowers (?) & keep the aspirations limited to the parameters of their missile systems.

Sure, but here you are exceeding them (parameters) with much more accuracy than US n Russia combined when you define 100M to be adequate for Indians - while other heavyweights (nation) are working with higher CEP - which is not relevant anyway with 50% margin of failure allowed (as per yr definition).

Weapons?

Yes weapons, I never said ICBMs, hence dont put yr words into my mouth.

What superpowers do is not related here.

Well in this perticular feild YES, when you compare an apple to apple - its called peer reveiw!

Peer review is the evaluation of creative work or performance by other people in the same field in order to maintain the quality......

Considering that much of the rocket science tech-components is imported by India from the Russians (Tech transfer or consultancy) those who have helped us starting from SAM series - and now you tell them we are better than you. Disregard thier ICBM benchmarks as not workable (talking of 200M TOPOL) because you say 100M is okey, but on 200M mark you kind of stray

All I am saying is that you have to be rational enough to understand that if Russian ICBMs perfected since 4 decades (India is new comer in this feild) still maintain thier 200M CEP figures, whats your problem to stick to 100M ?

You are maintaining an irrational stand void of logic on CEP issue here......

 

[vikramrana_1812]

Agni-5 to be a reality by next year: DRDO chief

India is likely to enter the elite club of nations with Inter-
Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) capability as the over 5,000 km range Agni-5 missile was expected to become a reality by next year.
"Work is progressing satisfactorily in the development of Agni-5, which is expected to
become a reality next year. With this, DRDO would have given India a comprehensive
indigenous strategic capability, available with only a few nations of the world," the DRDO chief, Mr V.K. Saraswat, said at the National Technology Day awards function here.
Agni-5 will be the first canistered ballistic missile with range of over 5,000 km into Indian inventory, bringing possible military targets in the whole of China and Pakistan within striking range. The missile is likely to be tested early next year. Missiles which are capable of being launched from canisters can be fired from multiple platforms and are easily transportable. Commenting on the Indian missile programme, Saraswat said, "the success of Agni-3 and other tests have confirmed India's strategic deterrence capability, which could not
have been possible without the preceding developmental efforts in these programmes."

 

[sayareakd]

i wonder if the same containerised A5 can be shifted to submarine or ship.

 

[keshtopatel]

i wonder if the same containerised A5 can be shifted to submarine or ship.

Ships yes, they (canisters) can be hydraulically elevated, submarines cant (India specific), cause A5 is 22 meters tall, and our INS Arihant´s diameter is 11 meters, unless there is a miracle that is!

 

[sayareakd]

Ships yes, they (canisters) can be hydraulically elevated, submarines cant (India specific), cause A5 is 22 meters tall, and our INS Arihant´s diameter is 11 meters, unless there is a miracle that is!

sir, any info on the length of the missile, yeah i know length will be more then A3, since it has additional stage. I never said it will be for Arihant, it may be for future versions of ATV.

 

[keshtopatel]

sir, any info on the length of the missile, yeah i know length will be more then A3, since it has additional stage. I never said it will be for Arihant, it may be for future versions of ATV.

There will be future versions of ATVs and future versions of miniaturised Agnis......

A miniaturised submarine-launched version of the Agni-III called Agni-III SL is also being developed and could be test-fired shortly.

The Hindu News Update Service

 

[nrj]

Its not required for India to walk the lines of Superpowers (?) & keep the aspirations limited to the parameters of their missile systems.

Sure, but here you are exceeding them (parameters) with much more accuracy than US n Russia combined when you define 100M to be adequate for Indians - while other heavyweights (nation) are working with higher CEP - which is not relevant anyway with 50% margin of failure allowed (as per yr definition).

Weapons?

Yes weapons, I never said ICBMs, hence dont put yr words into my mouth.

What superpowers do is not related here.

Well in this perticular feild YES, when you compare an apple to apple - its called peer reveiw!

Peer review is the evaluation of creative work or performance by other people in the same field in order to maintain the quality......

Considering that much of the rocket science tech-components is imported by India from the Russians (Tech transfer or consultancy) those who have helped us starting from SAM series - and now you tell them we are better than you. Disregard thier ICBM benchmarks as not workable (talking of 200M TOPOL) because you say 100M is okey, but on 200M mark you kind of stray

All I am saying is that you have to be rational enough to understand that if Russian ICBMs perfected since 4 decades (India is new comer in this feild) still maintain thier 200M CEP figures, whats your problem to stick to 100M ?

You are maintaining an irrational stand void of logic on CEP issue here......

1) I am not going to comment on comparison of Western/Russian ICBMs with Indians as Indian ICBM is still on paper now Nor I will agree on ranting against Indian capabilities compared to western/russians.

2) I never said the CEP of A5 will HAVE TO BE 100m & anything else than that is unacceptable.

3) The 200m or any other figure if approved by Indian armed user will be acceptable.

4) Lesser the CEP of A5 larger the Nuke Force serving India so ideal state remains to have least CEP.

Hence rationality remains in developing longer-range missile with least CEP preserving lethality of attack while fielding larger Nuke force in turn benefiting range of missile with smaller payload.

 

[charlie]

Considering that much of the rocket science tech-components is imported by India from the Russians (Tech transfer or consultancy) those who have helped us starting from SAM series - and now you tell them we are better than you. Disregard thier ICBM benchmarks as not workable (talking of 200M TOPOL) because you say 100M is okey, but on 200M mark you kind of stray .

the Russian never revelled what the actual CEP of TOPOL M is and they never will unless it's out of service the only thing you are referring is from some open sources or press release and mostly the westerner believe that it's 300m as they have a habit of showing the Russian tech is inferior then theirs but the actual CEP can be far more better then the rumours out there as it is using a GLONASS system

and the russian consultancy never helped us when it comes to developing missile we did copy their sam propulsion system and other system of SA2 but they never helped us in developing a ballistic missile or neither there was a transfer of tech when it comes to ballistic missile as it would be against the Missile Technology Control Regime(MTCR) and if you say you are talking about rockets in ISRO that got help from russian then let me tell you that ISRO is strictly prohibited to help DRDO or any other defence agency in the country