Age matters only in the Indian Army

Ray

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Brig<
I fall back to the basic question.
Is age a merit for promotion to higher ranks?

say yes or No, or the arguments never end.

In your style only - let us not beat around the bush.
What has age got to do with the Army Cdr level?

They are all of the same merit to have reached that rank.

No one is beating about the bush.

One who has any experience or idea about the issue, would understand.

To those who are uninitiated, it will continue to remain Greek.
 

Bhadra

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Why should there be residual service for one to hold an appointment?
Is age (=residual service) such a merit.
Or the meritorious service and capabilities of a man qualify a general to be Army Commander irrespective of his age?

You are again beating around the bush rather than answering straight?

you have been told Air Marshall Arjun Singh was COAS at 45 !! would it have made a difference if he was 65 ??
If any, what??
 

Ray

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Why should there be residual service for one to hold an appointment?
Is age (=residual service) such a merit.
Or the meritorious service and capabilities of a man qualify a general to be Army Commander irrespective of his age?

You are again beating around the bush rather than answering straight?

you have been told Air Marshall Arjun Singh was COAS at 45 !! would it have made a difference if he was 65 ??
If any, what??
I would be surprised that an Air Marshall is commanding an Army!

The retirement of the Chief is 62.

It all depends on the size of the Force and the vacancies as to when one takes over!

Gen Cariappa took over as the first Commander-in-Chief of an independent Indian Army on 15 January 1949. He wa born on 28 January 1899.

At 50 in today's army because of the vacancies, one can barely be a Brigadier. And things have improved since my time!

so......?
 
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Bhadra

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You are skirting the sissue Brig and beating around the round bush..

Is it the merit and qualification or age / residual service that should be the sole criteria for one to a Corps / Army Commander or his qualifications ?

You are going round and round and not replying the question straight due to your misplaced loyalties !
 

Iamanidiot

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You are skirting the sissue Brig and beating around the round bush..

Is it the merit and qualification or age / residual service that should be the sole criteria for one to a Corps / Army Commander or his qualifications ?

You are going round and round and not replying the question straight due to your misplaced loyalties !
Has it ever dawned to u that the selection parameters might be confidential
 

Bhadra

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Has it ever dawned to u that the selection parameters might be confidential
It has never but one thing is clear that one needs to have minimum two years residual service to be appointed as Army commander and we are discussing that. Other conditions, if confidential are not known and are OK.
We are talking about age!!
 

Ray

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Has it ever dawned to u that the selection parameters might be confidential
The issue has been explained in detail.

It only requires to be understood.

It is a Govt policy.

On the age issue even the Minister and the bureaucrats seem to have not understood the ethos and workings of the Army, maybe deliberately or out of ignorance!

After all, everyone has not the opportunity to mingle in a military environment to understand why honour is so important to the Army. The answer is not hard to find since it is this Honour that takes a man into battle and knowing fully he may not return. There is no other reason why one (who is sane) would willingly embrace death.

One should read about the samurais to understand what is so important as Honour.in case they cannot understand it in the Indian military context.
 
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W.G.Ewald

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If there was no requirement of knowing your job, then why have the training period as Cadets or recruits?

Just give then there rank and say, go into battle!

Or even courses as officers and men?

At every rank, there is a criterion for how long one serves in that rank.

You cannot have Tees mar Khans with no job experience with no time devoted to it!
In the US Civil War many militia units, North and South, elected their officers at the beginning of hostilities. I have never seen an analysis of the performance of the elected leaders versus the West Point (USMA) graduates during the war.

Joshua Chamberlain was an example of the non-professional officer.

Joshua Chamberlain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lawrence Joshua Chamberlain, was an American college professor from the State of Maine, who volunteered during the American Civil War to join the Union Army. Although having no earlier education in military strategies, he became a highly respected and decorated Union officer, reaching the rank of brigadier general (and brevet major general). For his gallantry at Gettysburg, he was awarded the Medal of Honor. He was given the honor of commanding the Union troops at the surrender ceremony for the infantry of Robert E. Lee's Army at Appomattox, Virginia.
 

Bhadra

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Things Explaned

Broadsword
TUESDAY, 24 JANUARY 2012

Performance, not age

In selecting senior Indian commanders, age is everything. Gen Hasnain, the highly effective commander of 15 Corps (pictured talking to locals in Kashmir) is blocked by his age from becoming army commander


by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 24th Jan 12

The public battle over the army chief's age bears a larger lesson for the government: the undesirability of letting a date of birth determine which generals are appointed to senior military command and, especially, to the crucial appointments of army, navy and air force chiefs. As India now knows, the army chief (like those of the navy and air force) is appointed based not on merit but on when he was born. When a serving chief retires, his senior-most army commander is elevated to the top job. Only once has the government deviated from this: in appointing Lt Gen A S Vaidya instead of Lt Gen S K Sinha in 1983. Rather than exercise judgement in selecting a suitable chief from its 85-odd lieutenant generals, the government acts as if all of them are equally good, or bad.

Rather less known is the fact that the army chief's key subordinates — i.e., army commanders and, under them, corps commanders — are also appointed based on when they were born. Of the officers promoted to lieutenant general, only those with at least three years of residual service (i.e., those below 57 years) get to command corps, while the rest of them warm desks. This even though a corps commander's tenure is just a year. After commanding a corps, a lieutenant general is elevated to army commander only if he has two years of residual service.

These are not mere guidelines that are waived for exceptional officers, but ironclad rules that waste exceptional military talent for insufficient reason. An example of this is currently playing out. Lieutenant General Syed Ata Hasnain was brought in as Srinagar corps commander in autumn 2010 to staunch three years of bloodletting on the Kashmiri street. He successfully calmed tempers and dramatically boosted the army's image, achieving in Kashmir what Stanley McChrystal and David Petraeus could not in Afghanistan. Based purely on performance, Hasnain is an outstanding field commander. But, since he has less than two years of service left, he will not even make army commander, leave alone army chief. Instead, he will push papers in Delhi.

This ill-conceived "date of birth" approach to top-rank promotions sits atop a bitterly resented quota system in the ranks just below. The army's "Mandalised" system of promotion quotas (described in this newspaper's Weekend supplement on January 14) grants promotions at the key ranks of colonel and brigadier not to accomplished officers with the best career records; but distributes them between various arms on a pro-rata basis. That guarantees each arm — the infantry, the artillery, the armoured corps, etc., — proportionate representation in those crucial ranks, regardless of merit. Every promotion board rejects some outstanding officers because of "lack of vacancies" in that arm; while officers with notably inferior records get promoted because their arm's vacancies must be filled.

No other country that I know of fetters its senior military command so. The United States government, like most others, selects its top soldier from a broad panel of generals, often picking up a relatively junior officer with an exceptional service record and the potential for bridging the sometimes opposing interests of the military and the political class.

Such systems of "deep selection" create incentives amongst the generals for bold decision-making and eye-catching performance. But Indian generals who are in the running to be chief (by virtue of their correctly aligned dates of birth!) need only to ensure that they don't shoot themselves in the foot. This encourages conservative decision-making, the absolute avoidance of risk, and the "servicing" of personal relationships to ensure that nothing derails their candidacy.

The argument against "deep selection" sounds superficially convincing: that a compromised polity and an inherently anti-army bureaucracy can hardly be trusted to select the military chiefs. This argument suggests that dhotiwalas and babus (the military's mocking reference to politicians and bureaucrats) would unleash patrimonialism and politicisation within an organisation that has remained relatively honest and functional only because of its complete segregation.

This argument is flawed, not least in regarding the selection of senior officers free of such influence — something that has been disproved in the debate over the army chief's birth date. By promoting a chasm between the military and the political and bureaucratic elites, the military damages its own interests. With no political and bureaucratic investment in a military chief (we didn't select him, he just happened to be born on a certain date and came up the chain) the civil-military relationship remains fundamentally adversarial. Any reform measure — the creation of a Chief of Defence Staff (CDS); an integrated defence staff (IDS) headquarters, or the cross-posting of officers between the MoD and the IDS — founders on the rocks of inter-agency hostility.

A system of "deep selection" would galvanise the military's leadership; lead to longer tenures for service chiefs, during which they could drive home key initiatives; promote a meritocracy from the top down; and, most importantly, create an incentive for elected representatives and government bureaucrats to pay closer attention to the military and the management of defence. For entrenched interests within the military, greater civilian involvement in promotions and appointments is threatening. But this must be the lesson that emerges from the current unsavoury face-off.
 

Bhadra

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No comments Brig and other Army AirForce and Navy walas
 

Ray

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Adequate to read this:

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News

The rationale for age has already been explained in earlier posts.

One wonders why it has not been understood or where one could not understand and why?
 
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Bhadra

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One of the comments at Braodsword:

Please refere to following for the data:
[http://joinindianarmy.nic.in/inner.aspx?status=2&menu_id=142&id=1}

Various entry schemes to be an officer in the Indian Army are:

10+2 TECHNICAL ENTRY SCHEME(10+2 TES)

16 ½ to 19 & 1/2 yrs
Last age of commission ; 23 1/2 yeras
vacancies 85 per year

NATIONAL DEFENCE ACADEMY (NDA)
16 ½ to 19 yrs
vacancies Army - 390 per year.
Last age at Commission : 23 years

INDIAN MILITARY ACADEMY DIRECT ENTRY ( NON TECHNICAL MEN )
19 and 24 yrs
Vacancies per course :250 (Twice a year) Total 500
Last age at commission 25 1/2 years


OFFICERS TRAINING ACADEMY ( NON TECHNICAL MEN )
19 and 25 yrs
Vacancies 175 (Twice a year) Total 400
Last age of Commission 26 1/2

Toatl intake per annum : approx 1400
Considering that only 50 per cent of the SSC officers would remain in service after five years of their commission the total batch strenghth of fofficers would be approximately 1200.

It may seen from the above data that from the toatl intake percentage of entry in a batch of 1200 is as follows:

NDA - 32.5 % last age of commission 23 years
DE - 41.66 % last age of commission 25 1/2 years
SS - 16.66 % last age of commission 26 1/2 years
Tech -07.5 % last age of commission 23 /12 years

The figures above state following thing:

SSC is the wastage entry. Even after perment commision and being most capable SS entry can forget about age driven higher rank ranks.
DE is the filler entry who will fade away as they climb up. Capabilities or no capablities.
NDA and TE is elite entry who will be generals even if they do not desrve it by mere virtue of pattern of intake and residual age.
The age system is thus a conspiracy by NDA generals / cadre specially coming from institutions like Sainik / Military Schools where age at entry is easily manipulated.

This is thus an aristocratic system where the rank is being ditermined by virtue of entry rather than merits solely for advantage of age.

Army conducts a serious war of business where such scheming rules and QRS should not be followed or officers would be preditermined based on their age and entry and thus harm the sytem.

Gen Hasnain is precisely victim of the above preplanned and well thought conspiracy.

Adjust the upper and lower bars of age for all entries and bring them to equal intake level at commission. Why the DE are made to lose six months of extra training at IMA. If NDA is training so is any college !
 

Bhadra

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Is the above correct?

Is yes, this is a caste sytem of age based induction? Defense forces will this way split officer cadre !
 

Singh

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Not only this, then there is the issue of Annual Reports by Seniors. Even the most brilliant officer sometimes becomes a victim of politics.
 

Ray

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If there was a conspiracy afoot, then Hasnain and others would not have made it to such high ranks and all NDA chaps would have bagged the posts.

And Ajai Shukla's entry?

And why he only achieved the rank of Col?
 

Bhadra

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If there was a conspiracy afoot, then Hasnain and others would not have made it to such high ranks and all NDA chaps would have bagged the posts.

And Ajai Shukla's entry?

And why he only achieved the rank of Col?
Very much NDA but not Sainik or Military school , I think.
Left the Army on his won after command as Colonel, That is what is the gossip.
 

Bhadra

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If there was a conspiracy afoot, then Hasnain and others would not have made it to such high ranks and all NDA chaps would have bagged the posts.

And Ajai Shukla's entry?

And why he only achieved the rank of Col?
The conspiracy is in action or acts which is writ large. One does not need to spell it.
How can age become the sole factor? It means those who have advantage of age are benefitted. Well one does not have to say it is conspiracy or not.
Facts speak loud and louder !

Waht say Brigadier?
 

Ray

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The conspiracy is in action or acts which is writ large. One does not need to spell it.
How can age become the sole factor? It means those who have advantage of age are benefitted. Well one does not have to say it is conspiracy or not.
Facts speak loud and louder !

Waht say Brigadier?
Have said enough for anyone to understand.

If you don't understand why age and consequently residual service is important, what can one say.

Simply put, if there is a policy that cannot be seen through because the personalities change every now and then, efficiency naturally does not come about.

Let us put it this way, what will be the progress of the country, if instead of the current tenure of the Govt, the elections are held every year?

As it is we are seeing that inspite of the tenure, the Govts have been floundering all because of coalition 'dharna' (as it is called) and add to it, if the Govt changes every year!

At policy making level, be it the Armed Forces, the Govt, or even private industry, one cannot keep playing Musical Chairs if policies made are to be seen through to its logical end.

I thought such an idea is very simple to understand!
 
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Bhadra

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Have said enough for anyone to understand.

If you don't understand why age and consequently residual service is important, what can one say.

Simply put, if there is a policy that cannot be seen through because the personalities change every now and then, efficiency naturally does not come about.

Let us put it this way, what will be the progress of the country, if instead of the current tenure of the Govt, the elections are held every year?

As it is we are seeing that inspite of the tenure, the Govts have been floundering all because of coalition 'dharna' (as it is called) and add to it, if the Govt changes every year!

At policy making level, be it the Armed Forces, the Govt, or even private industry, one cannot keep playing Musical Chairs if policies made are to be seen through to its logical end.

I thought such an idea is very simple to understand!



Very6 funny sir,
In all other Services, that is IAS, IPS, other civil Services, Judiciary they become Secretary or Chief Justcies for one day and retire with honour and dignity. What is so special about Indian Army Generals?

Why can't they take merit rather than age. Any one who has no residual age, do not make him Army commander but he can be given that status and reired with honour and dignity.
You do not have an open mind on the issue.
 

nitesh

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cross post:

The making of generals | Deccan Chronicle


The seniority principle for the Army Chief was evolved after the Curzon-Kitchener dispute in the early 20th century. Field Marshal Lord Kitchener, the commander-in-chief (C-in-C) and senior member of the Viceroy's Executive Council, felt it was inappropriate for Maj. Gen. Sir Edmund Elles, Army member of the Council, to express his professional views at council meetings. The practice of the C-in-C's proposals being sent to the Viceroy through him and his commenting on them was undesirable.
The Viceroy should have advice from one source, which will have the responsibility to implement his decision. Curzon was of the view that since civil is supreme, he should have views from two different sources so that he could choose between them, otherwise he would be reduced to a rubber stamp. The British government decided in favour of Kitchener and the post of Army member was abolished. Curzon resigned. It was now realised that the Chief would become too powerful.

Therefore it was decided that on all important policy issues, while forwarding his recommendations, the Chief would also forward the views of the Army commanders. To ensure the independence of Army commanders, it was decided that no annual reports will be written on them and the seniority principle for selection of Army Chief will be strictly adhered to.

This practice continued after Independence. In fact, it has become more desirable when we have a "committed bureaucracy". It can help ensure the Army remains apolitical. The article's apprehension that merit is ignored on this account is misconceived. There are six levels of selection from lieutenant-colonels to Army commander.
At each level merit is given due consideration. On an average, 30 per cent get selected at each level and 70 per cent do not make the grade. Thus the merit of Army commanders need not be questioned. This practice is like the senior judge in the Supreme Court being appointed Chief Justice of India.

The surprising statement in the recent article that "the Army Chiefs have stuck to a stunted vision... for mistaking the minor foe (Pakistan)" and ignoring China, is factually incorrect.

The fault lies with the political leadership. When Cariappa spoke to Nehru about China, he was told not to worry about China and concentrate on Pakistan. Nehru also ignored the advice of Sardar Patel, written on November 17, 1950, in this matter. Nehru and Krishna Menon formulated our strategic policy on China, leading to the debacle of 1962.
The author of the article has insinuated that Field Marshal Cariappa, the first Indian Army Chief, was selected on the basis of seniority and not merit. Lt. Gen. Rajendrasinhji, junior to him, had won a gallantry award in North Africa and he should have been chosen instead. This set a bad precedent.

Cariappa and Thimayya were the only Indians who commanded a brigade in operations before Independence, the former in NWFP and the latter in Burma. Cariappa successfully conducted the one-year war against Pakistan in Kashmir. Rajendrasinhji commanded the Southern Army which brought about the integration of Hyderabad into the Indian Union.

When Lt. Gen. Rajendrasinhji heard that he was to supersede Cariappa, he told Nehru he would resign if appointed Chief. Superseding Cariappa would have set a wrong precedent, eventually politicising the Army. Cariappa as Army Chief held the Army together at a critical time, when everything was in a flux. His contribution was handsomely recognised by his promotion to field marshal 30 years after his retirement.

In 1968, Manekshaw was appointed Chief on the basis of seniority even when his junior, Lt. Gen. Harbaksh Singh, had a better war record. Manekshaw was wounded in battle as a young officer in Burma and had earned a gallantry award. After that he had not commanded troops in operations.

Harbaksh had seen action in Malaya as a junior officer, commanded a battalion and a brigade in war in Kashmir earning a gallantry award, commanded a corps in Sikkim during the Chinese aggression and a field army of three corps in Punjab and Kashmir during the 1965 war. Manekshaw justified his selection by winning a resounding and unprecedented victory in Bangladesh in 1971.

In 1983, I was superseded for Chief's appointment and was perhaps the only such case in our Army. I was the senior Army commander and was posted to Delhi as Vice-Chief a few months before the then Chief was to retire. I was officially told that I would soon be taking over as Chief.

Suddenly Indira Gandhi decided to supersede me and appointed my junior, Lt. Gen. Vaidya, the Chief. I put in my papers immediately. Vaidya had a good war record, having won two high gallantry awards, but had suffered two heart attacks. His medical category made him ineligible for promotion.

In a rare case, his medical category was upgraded. Ram Singh Rajda, MP, stated in Parliament: "Lt. Gen. Sinha was superseded because his family was close to JP and Lt. Gen. Vaidya was promoted because he had allegedly given statements against the Communists" during the Tripura Assembly elections. Six former Central ministers, including former Prime Minister Chowdhary Charan Singh, former defence minister Jagjivan Ram and former I&B minister L.K. Advani, expressed their grave concern in a joint press statement. The matter was raised in Parliament.

The government maintained it would not be desirable, in the national interest, to debate this sensitive issue in Parliament. The Opposition rightly did not press the matter. In view of the raging controversy, Venkatraman, the then defence minister, desired that I clarify the matter to the press.

I stated, "I do not question the decision of the government, I accept it. I have decided to fade away from the Army. Lt. Gen. Vaidya is a friend of mine and a competent general. The Army will do well under his able leadership."

I felt it was not right to allow the image of the Army to be sullied on account of any controversy over my supersession. I have recounted these details because the current controversy is tarnishing the image of the Army. It has divided both serving and retired Army officers. The sooner this unfortunate controversy is resolved, the better for the Army and the nation.
 

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