ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

I might have missed this bit of news. Can you please post more about this?

here is link - Livefist: Four MMRCA Contenders Fail Leh Trials!
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rafale is selected by IAF and EFT not selected cause cost negotiation so the rest four have most percentage of failure at leh
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@ersakthivel have posted this many times that MMRCA contender's performance are not disclosed...... May be they vulnerable than their specs

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

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[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@Twinblade sorry I can be wrong about avionics as I have read that in different forum but my whole post isn't a baked story....
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here is link about aesa radar on mk1 - Indian Defence News - Indigenous AESA radars for Tejas Mark-2 : Saraswat
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and price of tejas is lower than gripen

 

[ersakthivel]

Please, stop posting such half baked posts. You have no idea what you are posting. Please lurk around a bit more before you start posting, it is painfully obvious that you are in no position to answer even the basic queries related to the program.

You too have no proof either for or against the statement ,"tejas has lower RCS and better radar than grippen ". So what is the fuss?

What is the radome dia of grippen,rafael ,typhoon,and tejas?

What is the average RCS(as measured by russians, not frontal clean config RCS) of rafale, typhoon,grippen and tejas?

If it is so, then why did the MMRCA contenders insisted on their performance specs not to be revealed in public and wanted the IAF to hand them over to each in sealed envelopes?

All their peak performance advertised by these 5 MMRCA contenders are in their own mostly cold climatic conditions.

And other than the f-16 and f-18 all the other contenders had fielded incomplete products or prototypes in case of SAAB.

Has grippen Ng achieved FOC?

If we add the clean take off weight with full fuel and add it to the max advertised external weapon load , the sum sometimes exceed their max take off weight!!!!

You probably know which fighter I was mentioning in the above sentence.

With such jugglery of figures no one knows whether they achieved their peak advertised specs for ITRs , STRs, sea level and high altitude topspeeds in indian conditions.

Till today not a single MMRCA contender has revealed what is the peak performance specs their fighters achieved in indian hot and humid conditions,


it is common knowledge that in indian hot and humid climate conditions ,in which tejas is being tested saps quite a bit of engine thrust for any jet engine,

So it will be interesting to know what the MMRCA contenders achieved in top speeds, STRs and ITRs in hot and humid indian conditions.

If you have any specs achieved by all the five contenders in MMRCA competition please post the link, before asking other guys to learn a bit more.

And all along you and many posters here kept on saying that tejas can not achieve its top sea level speed due to the 3.7 dBSM drag resulting from sudden increase in cross section according to CEMILAC report dating 2009.

But during flutter tests(in a power less dive from 4 kms , not powered) in very hot engine thrust saping sea level summer trials in Goa tejas crossed the maximum speed achieved by Mig-29 and Su-30 MKI in Indian skies.

this is not my statement , but IAf

 

[ersakthivel]

Question:On what basis are they saying it will be equivalent to Rafale?Any one aware how was that assessment made?
Grippen is available today Tejas MK2 will take till 2020 be get into production then till 2015 it will be for IAF only... If we can just be very optimistic about it... How is it a competition...?
Delay will not help us today... If you believe that it will be equivalent to rafale then on a contrary we must rush to make it happen even under certain set backs....and scrap rafale deal...?
IAF is too reluctant everyone knows that.... they love foreign toys....

if SAAB wants 51% then we can ask for something else negotiate for our betterment...
our defense needs that if not SAAB let it be any in ur mind...
Rafale is delayed by 2 years already... it might get delayed a bit more .... even if deal get done today we will have to wait for 2 years for deliveries.... MIG21 upgraded will not last that long ,,,

Pardon me if by anyway i have said anything that hurts anybody....

For the same budget tejas mk-2 fleet has no particular deficiency compared to rafale fleet , because numbers will be 3:1 favoring tejas,

Ans SAAB itself said the same thing while asking DRDO for 51 percent stake in tejas mk-2 ,for the design consultancy thy wanted to offer for tejas mk-2,

it is not a one on one comparison, budget wise comparison.

And what is your idea of test bed and finished product?,

please post

Both the MMRCA contenders shortlisted by IAF did not have a functioning ASEA radar and certified METEOR capability , They did not have the ability to fire all russian long range missiles unlike tejas,

And rafale still does not have HMDS enabled visually cued high off bore missile firing capability tht tejas right now have,

They will require years to certify and integrate them.

that did not stop IAF from selecting them. So a six month FOC delay even if true is no big thing

 

[Pulkit]

You are telling me Tejas MK2 will be better tahn Rafale.... I know And I hope its true.... BUt there will be certain criterias like more payload more range etc etc ..... Tejas MK2 is still in design phase so no body knows what the exact specs will be performance vise and all.....

SAAB has claimed that and they want 51% Okay.... If they can deliver Tejas on Time with all the requirements met ... I dont see any harm in it...

Many will agree that alot of issues will take surface at the assembly itself....Then we will need foreign help...
If you dont agree with SAAB then someone else.... but you will need it...
our scientist are excellent but still there is always something left...

TEST BED if it is not delivered on time and has no space in IAF in the lighst of AMCA and FGFA if they also meet the same phase...
They will proudly come out and say IAF wants 60-70 TEjas MK2... Then after so much of effort and money it will be nothing more than a test bed just like MK1
they called it trainer aircraft and all.... a 4+gen aircraft fighter a trainer....
Thats how our defense works ... SAD
Yes that did not stop IAF from selecting them because they are foreign brand and our defense id fond of foreign toys....
SIX months delay when becomes year or 2 in our Defense structure You will never know....+ no one provides reason in public domain.....

I support not just on the fact that its home made ... but in history of aircrafts no aircraft would have had these many trials ever....Salute to TEJAS

For the same budget tejas mk-2 fleet has no particular deficiency compared to rafale fleet , because numbers will be 3:1 favoring tejas,

Ans SAAB itself said the same thing while asking DRDO for 51 percent stake in tejas mk-2 ,for the design consultancy thy wanted to offer for tejas mk-2,

it is not a one on one comparison, budget wise comparison.

And what is your idea of test bed and finished product?,

please post

Both the MMRCA contenders shortlisted by IAF did not have a functioning ASEA radar and certified METEOR capability , They did not have the ability to fire all russian long range missiles unlike tejas,

And rafale still does not have HMDS enabled visually cued high off bore missile firing capability tht tejas right now have,

They will require years to certify and integrate them.

that did not stop IAF from selecting them. So a six month FOC delay even if true is no big thing

 

[Twinblade]

@Twinblade sorry I can be wrong about avionics as I have read that in different forum but my whole post isn't a baked story....
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here is link about aesa radar on mk1 - Indian Defence News - Indigenous AESA radars for Tejas Mark-2 : Saraswat
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and price of tejas is lower than gripen

Pointing out the inaccuracies in your post.

tejas is ahead of gripen in many aspects
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gripen is nothing in indian hot condition and was unable to land at leh...

Wrong.

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many avionics of tejas from su30mki so I don't see any possibility of them being inferior to that of gripen

Wrong on both points. Many of the earlier avionics from Tejas ended up on Su-30Mki, the current avionics are totally different. Also, Gripen's avionics, when it entered service were considered ground breaking. Sensor fusion as on Gripen, will make it to Tejas only by the Mk2 version.

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gripen have fly by wire of f16 and american pilot admitted that f16 flies better with fly by wire of tejas. So tejas have better fly by wire.
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Wrong again.

tejas have lesser RCS than gripen
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Anyone who claims RCS figures based on internet pictures without the necessary background is a certified idiot.

tejas have PESA radar right now but will be modified to better AESA radar . And gripen have PESA radar

Wrong.

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As far as the forum's yell-see-yay eggsbert is concerned he has the ignominy of claiming that the 0.5 meter plug that is supposed to go on mk2 version has already been incorporated in the mk1 version, Tejas has a lower frontal RCS to PAK-FA, DRFM can block AESA radars and that no single crystal blade has been made in India. His refusal to see logic in face of proofs and in general rudeness has lead to this:-

His posts need to be taken with more salt than in the dead sea.

 

[arnabmit]

Rafale contract elusive, Eurofighter and Saab remain hopeful | Business Standard :ranger:

Aah! The arms lobbyist rants on incessantly :why:

 

[arnabmit]

Just a few days ago Avinash Chander said FOC would be by 2014 end. Planning on track with 40 flights per month to achieve that.

On Tarmak FB page it was written that FOC will only be possible by June 2015.... "A senior IAF officer tells Express that #Tejas #FinalOperationalClerance #FOC will happen only by June 2015. https://twitter.com/akxpress" This is what has been mentioned on the page....
will it or will it not make any impact...
Gripen cannot compete with Rafale in present scenario as a link was posted here some where why is raafle choosen ...

 

[Pulkit]

i dont own this information but on tarmaks fb page this informaton is avilable saying that FOC will only be possibel by june 2015 .... No body has yet denied it ....

Just a few days ago Avinash Chander said FOC would be by 2014 end. Planning on track with 40 flights per month to achieve that.

 

[Pulkit]

Just a small clarification I think it was based on MK2 not MK1 .
Even at one place u have also written that MK2 will be much better and then it might even be comparable to Rafale ......

Pointing out the inaccuracies in your post.



Wrong.



Wrong on both points. Many of the earlier avionics from Tejas ended up on Su-30Mki, the current avionics are totally different. Also, Gripen's avionics, when it entered service were considered ground breaking. Sensor fusion as on Gripen, will make it to Tejas only by the Mk2 version.

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Wrong again.


Anyone who claims RCS figures based on internet pictures without the necessary background is a certified idiot.



Wrong.

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As far as the forum's yell-see-yay eggsbert is concerned he has the ignominy of claiming that the 0.5 meter plug that is supposed to go on mk2 version has already been incorporated in the mk1 version, Tejas has a lower frontal RCS to PAK-FA, DRFM can block AESA radars and that no single crystal blade has been made in India. His refusal to see logic in face of proofs and in general rudeness has lead to this:-

His posts need to be taken with more salt than in the dead sea.

 

[Twinblade]

Even at one place u have also written that MK2 will be much better and then it might even be comparable to Rafale ......

You must be confusing me with someone else. I don't compare platforms other than that on publicly released data.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@Twinblade , can you tell me how avionics of gripen better?
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45% of composite materials and Y duct air-intake of tejas makes it stealthier than gripen and chandar too said that tejas is stealthiest among 4.5 gen fighters
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tejas mk1 will have aesa and that's word of chandar
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and its truth that MMRCA were vulnerable in indian hot condition..... Hence the report not leaked and 4 failed to land at leh.
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the cost of gripen is 58 million and tejas costs 27 million so number advantaged for tejas.
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and what @ersakthivel says most of times is well researched.
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what HMDS, fly by wire gripen uses?

 

[ersakthivel]

WARNING!!!!!

there are few street hawkers peddling foreign wares with dubious intentions are posing as experts on tejas here and many other forums writting useless BS as kernels of truth,

But if we ask a few pointed questions these egg heads have nothing but personal abuse to respond with.

When open info is available about tejas mk-1 crossing su-30 MKi's topspeed in indain skies released by IAF itself, these eggheads pretend to not to notice it.

They did try once claiming that it was achieved in a dive but could not be achieved in straight line (with no publicly available citations ofcourse!!!!)

But when I pointed out that this topspeed was achieved in a powerless dive according to public info, these egg heads pretend that is is a private affair between me and them and start dishing out personal abuse.

people who do not have the honesty to accept their limited knowledge should stop lying about relying on posting only on publicly available knowledge!!!!

But liars who aren't willing to admit that will be reminded about their less than honest intentions every time here.

That is guaranteed from my side.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

just a half baked question to ask..... If the avionics are changed from that of the one similar to su30mki's then the most probably the changed avionics are better than the older one cause none replace a thing until they gets better than the previous
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so does this means tejas have better avionics than su30mki!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know tejas have better HMDS than su30mki.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

mods why I can't like post of othe members.....

 

[Twinblade]

In other words you have no clue what you are talking about and didn't read what I wrote.

@Twinblade , can you tell me how avionics of gripen better?

Go back and read what has been written. Gripen has everything Tejas has and did it 16 years before Tejas. One of the most advanced data links, capability to fuse radar data with that from data links and ability to hunt as a 'wolf pack' by sharing of track data between fighters. Tejas will receive data fusion capabilities in the Mk2 version.

45% of composite materials and Y duct air-intake of tejas makes it stealthier than gripen

Please don't make me laugh. You are just regurgitating what you read without an iota of understanding of what you read. Y-ducts are considered stealthy because they don't show the turbine blades from any angle. All single engine fighters with two intakes by default have Y shaped ducts (Gripen, KAI Golden Eagle, Jf-17, Tejas). When you make your entire skin out of composites it creates are different problem. Some composites too reflect EM waves (aluminium and lithium composites) while others are EM transparent which causes radar reflections from the innards of the aircraft, which are less controllable than skin reflections. F-22 and F-35 have lesser percentage of composites in skin than Tejas, yet their RCS is magnitudes lesser than Tejas.

In other words having a high percentage of composites is no guarantee of a low RCS.

and chandar too said that tejas is stealthiest among 4.5 gen fighters

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Are you sure ? Provide me the link because best to my knowledge, no such statement was ever made by Dr Avinash Chander.

tejas mk1 will have aesa and that's word of chandar

And ? Kindly provide me the link where it says Tejas currently has PESA as you claimed, or admit that you were wrong, because Tejas has a mechanically scanned array radar.

and its truth that MMRCA were vulnerable in indian hot condition..... Hence the report not leaked and 4 failed to land at leh.

None of the MMRCA failed to 'land at Leh'. The issues were with starting the aircraft after keeping them cold overnight and with meaningful take off load at high altitudes. In other words you don't think before you type.

what HMDS, fly by wire gripen uses?

SAAB developed it's own fly by wire system based on it's experience with SAAB Viggen, the pioneer in canard-delta design. Gripen's FBW system was tested on an older Viggen. The HMDS used by Gripen is BAE's Cobra.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Gripen have similar avionics to tejas though costs double.
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sorry it was four MMRCA failed leh trials.
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tejas majorly uses carbon composite.
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many website quote it as pesa radar but agree that its mechanically scanned array. But doesn't matter cause aesa will be fitted (link already provided)
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can't find the link but here is another one . Dr. Gupta here says that tejas is 'almost similar to stealth'. This gives a conclusion about tejas being one of the most stealthier than other 4.5 gen fighter
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Advantage India: Why DRDO claims that LCA Tejas is the 'best in its class' - Economic Times

 

[Twinblade]

Gripen have similar avionics to tejas

As explained earlier, as per publicly released information, no. Tejas more than matches up on self defence suites and radar, which are more due to newer vintage of the type, but Gripen maintains a significant lead for the foreseeable future in many other aspects.

sorry it was four MMRCA failed leh trials.

Apology accepted.

tejas majorly uses carbon composite.

And the point being ? As explained earlier, all chest beating aside, the percentage of composites is a very skewed and unreliable metric of radar cross section. As I said earlier, anyone who claims to infer RCS from non privy information deserves every bit of ridicule and scorn as available on planet earth.

The only realistic comparison of Gripen's RCS come from an old report which claims about half the RCS of Mirage-2000-5 and for Tejas comes from an oft repeated sentence "1/3rd of Mirage-2000". Take away whatever you want to from those sentences.

many website quote it as pesa radar but agree that its mechanically scanned array. But doesn't matter cause aesa will be fitted (link already provided)

No website does. You made it up and now are too shy to admit it.

can't find the link but here is another one . Dr. Gupta here says that tejas is 'almost similar to stealth'. This gives a conclusion about tejas being one of the most stealthier than other 4.5 gen fighter
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Advantage India: Why DRDO claims that LCA Tejas is the 'best in its class' - Economic Times

Again the linked article doesn't mention what you claim and neither is it a reasonable deduction. It is OK to be proud of home made products but that doesn't give us the liberty to take a dump on other successful programs on false grounds.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

I am not shy. There are many in tejas thread who calls radar as pesa.
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the link says its almost similar to stealth
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gripen costs 69 million and tejas just 27 million( wikipedia)
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here is link about carbon composite giving natural stealth - Stealth and Tejas | idrw.org
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so again tejas have lesser RCS than gripen.
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and give me link about how gripen better than tejas