ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[vampyrbladez]

2027-8 is when it will be ready for production (if everything goes well). Lead times for production will be 12+ months at the very very least, remember LCA MK.1A will still be in production come 2029 so HAL will have to get firm commitments to start making capacity early on otherwise delivery will be delayed

Some dalals in Lutyens and Chandigarh will need a bottle of Black Label to sleep tonight.

This confirms the death of the MRCA 2.0 project. All Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 fighter jets will be complemented by and then replaced by the Tejas MK2.

Meanwhile Mig 21 gets replaced by Tejas MK1A.

The Su 30 MKI undergoes an upgrade with new AESA radars, uprated engines (service life), integrated EW systems, Astra MK 1, MK1A and MK2 air to air missile systems along with BrahMos NG AshM.

The AMCA will at first complement and then replace the Su 30 MKI. First squadron will probably be inducted by 2032-2035.

There is also a chance for a 36 Rafale follow on order from France now that MRCA 2.0 makes no sense.

 

[abingdonboy]

Some dalals in Lutyens and Chandigarh will need a bottle of Black Label to sleep tonight.

This confirms the death of the MRCA 2.0 project. All Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 fighter jets will be complemented by and then replaced by the Tejas MK2.

Meanwhile Mig 21 gets replaced by Tejas MK1A.

The Su 30 MKI undergoes an upgrade with new AESA radars, uprated engines (service life), integrated EW systems, Astra MK 1, MK1A and MK2 air to air missile systems along with BrahMos NG AshM.

The AMCA will at first complement and then replace the Su 30 MKI. First squadron will probably be inducted by 2032-2035.

There is also a chance for a 36 Rafale follow on order from France now that MRCA 2.0 makes no sense.

I don’t see the demand for MMRCA 2.0 having gone anywhere.

until a few weeks ago the IAF’s seniormost officer would only mention MRFA when talking about the future force plans, this week we saw a presentation of IAF’s future plans that had MRFA at the centre

they are not abandoning it until the civilians get a backbone and ask the IAF what planet they are living on expecting 114+ medium weight 4.5+ gen jets sourced from abroad

 

[silverghost]

For engine. JV include tech transfer- its my opinion.
Why do we need tech transfer for 72 Rafales ? - Why do we need tech transfer for 36 Rafales ?- fixing issue of kaveri, mro for rafale engine, etc in 36 deal.

If one has not realized that nobody is going to help you fix issues of Kaveri engines then you will never realize it. Either fix it yourself or keep the science experiments going for another 10 years. The right thing would be to nuke the Kaveri project & get a JV done with GE, Safran, or Rolls Royce. Why can't we mimic what we did with Turbomeca shakti? Looks like some non-technical people have managed to land at the top and are taking decisions that are costing the country both time & money.
Let's be a little pragmatic, Rafales in a fly-away condition cost less and are delivered faster. We need Rafales to protect our country else we will be sending Mig 21 to defend against the Chinese J10C in Ladakh.
If that happens then there is a couplet of Iqbal which sums the situation perfectly:
लड़ा दे ममूले (kid) को श|हबाज़ (white eagle) से
ज़माने के अंदाज़ बदले गए

 

[no smoking]

And you missed the point. Russia got mad at China for breaking the terms and forced Pakistan to come to Russia for the RD-33 engines. But I am telling you those engines were licensed produced by China in the early batches of the J-17 fighters.

No, the Chinese version of RD-93 is WS-13 which was developed as back up for WS-19 for J-35 and RD-33 for JF-17. But It has never been mass-produced as:
1. WS-19's R&D seems to go smoothly;
2. Russia has no intention to stop exporting RD-33 to Pakistan;
3. Pakistan refuse to be the test bed for WS-13 when Chinese has no plan to use it on their own.

 

[Alfalfa]

If one has not realized that nobody is going to help you fix issues of Kaveri engines then you will never realize it. Either fix it yourself or keep the science experiments going for another 10 years. The right thing would be to nuke the Kaveri project & get a JV done with GE, Safran, or Rolls Royce. Why can't we mimic what we did with Turbomeca shakti? Looks like some non-technical people have managed to land at the top and are taking decisions that are costing the country both time & money.
Let's be a little pragmatic, Rafales in a fly-away condition cost less and are delivered faster. We need Rafales to protect our country else we will be sending Mig 21 to defend against the Chinese J10C in Ladakh.
If that happens then there is a couplet of Iqbal which sums the situation perfectly:
लड़ा दे ममूले (kid) को श|हबाज़ (white eagle) से
ज़माने के अंदाज़ बदले गए

Cant just kill the Kaveri, it still goes into the Ghatak and the CATS I believe, over time you get there... in the meantime keep up with these experiments as you rightly called them

 

[Vamsi]

They should hire @Sancho , he would definitely increase their exports

 

[johnj]

If one has not realized that nobody is going to help you fix issues of Kaveri engines then you will never realize it. Either fix it yourself or keep the science experiments going for another 10 years. The right thing would be to nuke the Kaveri project & get a JV done with GE, Safran, or Rolls Royce. Why can't we mimic what we did with Turbomeca shakti? Looks like some non-technical people have managed to land at the top and are taking decisions that are costing the country both time & money.
Let's be a little pragmatic, Rafales in a fly-away condition cost less and are delivered faster. We need Rafales to protect our country else we will be sending Mig 21 to defend against the Chinese J10C in Ladakh.
If that happens then there is a couplet of Iqbal which sums the situation perfectly:
लड़ा दे ममूले (kid) को श|हबाज़ (white eagle) से
ज़माने के अंदाज़ बदले गए

Then what is the use/aim of make in india & SP model ?
How shutdowning entire defence industry and buying every military equipment off the shelf going to help against china ?

We already realized it and terminated Kaveri project, now working with Safran in JV, cost around 5/6 billion $ plus. Dassault order book is full until 4/5 years and French need additional jets.
Why can't we mimic what we did with Turbomeca shakti? - generation gap.

 

[Blademaster]

We should have never shut down Kaveri. We should have gone full speed ahead with it and go all in.

 

[Shuturmurg]

They should hire @Sancho , he would definitely increase their exports

Damn!! Checked that twitter thread, never knew Sancho is Gripen simp !!

 

[flanker99]

Damn knew they were skipping td,pv but straight to foc ...thats damn fast ...hope everything works out

 

[Johny_Baba]

i was wondering something that,
Say, original Rafale prototype was powered by F-404 engine itself and once M-88 was certified ready for induction after perhaps 4-5 years of that they switched over to it and so, and M-88 is actually smaller engine in terms of dimensions than F-404.
They also had side projects of M-88-3 with bigger profile and enhanced maximum thrust of 93 kN (on afterburner) meant for certain ;single engine fighter; and M-88-4 with even more maximum thrust of 105 kN meant for a proposed variant of JAS-39C Gripen that didn't happen as SAAB chose for F-414 instead
^so i wonder if we could try to bring M-88-3 and M-88-4 here with that JV offer, an M-88-4 derivative in similar size of F-414 etc would do wonders for our proposed indigeneous jet fighter projects and it was already rated maxx for 105 kN so going further on it for that 110 kN engine would also be relatively easier than trying to build a new engine design from scratch.

 

[jai jaganath]

Damn knew they were skipping td,pv but straight to foc ...thats damn fast ...hope everything works out

Will they be able to pull it of
God knows

 

[vishnugupt]

Damn knew they were skipping td,pv but straight to foc ...thats damn fast ...hope everything works out

Not sure about first 2 prototype but Last 2 prototype shall be FOC standard.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

Damn knew they were skipping td,pv but straight to foc ...thats damn fast ...hope everything works out

If the aircraft is going to be a medium weight category aircraft, then why is it being called LCA MK2?

 

[Vamsi]

If the aircraft is going to be a medium weight category aircraft, then why is it being called LCA MK2?

during AI2019 it was called Medium Weight Fighter, but from AI2021, they stared calling it again as LCA-Mk2 instead of MWF. I guess the reason might be IAF. They may have thought that kadi ninda may shove it down their throat and cancel MRFA if he realises that Mk-2 is also in the same category as Gripen-E/F & F-16

 

[silverghost]

Then what is the use/aim of make in india & SP model ?
How shutdowning entire defence industry and buying every military equipment off the shelf going to help against china ?

We already realized it and terminated Kaveri project, now working with Safran in JV, cost around 5/6 billion $ plus. Dassault order book is full until 4/5 years and French need additional jets.
Why can't we mimic what we did with Turbomeca shakti? - generation gap.

Let's focus on making world-class fighter jets first. Building a homegrown engine is an orthogonal project & has nothing to do with designing/developing/manufacturing world-class fighter jets. At the moment I don't think we have the volumes to invest in R&D required to come up with engines comparable with a GE 404, GE 414, GE F110, Pratt & Whitney F135. BTW, we will need all these classes of engines for the various models that we have in plan. Once we have proven to the world (by way of exports) that we can build these world-class fighter jets efficiently. We will have the necessary volumes to have indigenous engine plants. Until then we can continue either importing or manufacturing engines in a JV. The Indian private sector anyway has started manufacturing OEM components for GE engines. This is actually the way forward.

 

[IndianHawk]

Let's focus on making world-class fighter jets first. Building a homegrown engine is an orthogonal project & has nothing to do with designing/developing/manufacturing world-class fighter jets. At the moment I don't think we have the volumes to invest in R&D required to come up with engines comparable with a GE 404, GE 414, GE F110, Pratt & Whitney F135. BTW, we will need all these classes of engines for the various models that we have in plan. Once we have proven to the world (by way of exports) that we can build these world-class fighter jets efficiently. We will have the necessary volumes to have indigenous engine plants. Until then we can continue either importing or manufacturing engines in a JV. The Indian private sector anyway has started manufacturing OEM components for GE engines. This is actually the way forward.

There is an ancient saying if you need a mango you don't thinks about building a mango. You think about nurturing a mango tree. Mango will come automatically.

Similarly we need ecosystem and infrastructure to master all engine related tech not just for aerospace but for every sector.

We need national engine mission just like we did igmdp for missiles and isro for space technologies.

We need to establish a mission which can then create all necessary infrastructure for all kinds of engine development and testing and certification from ground test bed to various flying test beds to everything else.

Such a mission should be steered by PMO and should have a budget of 20 Billion usd over next 10 years and then more.

That's the only way of we are truly serious about indegenous engines. Otherwise current ad hoc and disjointed approach and we will spend multiple times more on foreign engines forever.

 

[MonaLazy]

during AI2019 it was called Medium Weight Fighter, but from AI2021, they stared calling it again as LCA-Mk2 instead of MWF. I guess the reason might be IAF. They may have thought that kadi ninda may shove it down their throat and cancel MRFA if he realises that Mk-2 is also in the same category as Gripen-E/F & F-16

Why is IAF so confident he cannot see through that charade? Was called the MWF for atleast a few years after all, allegedly changed at IAFs insistence. Anyone can see what's going on here.

EDIT- reminds me of this

Each Friday night after work, Sardar would fire up his outdoor grill and cook a tandoori chicken and some meat kebabs. But, all of his neighbors were strict Catholics ... and since it was Lent, they were forbidden from eating chicken and meat on a Friday.

The delicious aroma from the grilled meats was causing such a problem for the Catholic faithful that they finally talked to their Priest. The Priest came to visit Sardar and suggested that he become a Catholic. After several classes and much study, Sardar attended Mass... and as the priest sprinkled holy water over him, he said, You were born a Sikh, and raised a Sikh, but now, you are a Catholic."

Sardar's neighbors were greatly relieved, until Friday night arrived. The wonderful aroma of tandoori chicken and meat kebabs filled the neighborhood. The Priest was called immediately by the neighbors and, as he rushed into Sardar's backyard, clutching a rosary and prepared to scold him, he stopped and watched in amazement.

There stood Sardar, holding a small bottle of holy water which he carefully sprinkled over the grilling meats and chanted: "Oye, you were born a chicken, and you were born a lamb, you were raised a chicken and you were raised a lamb but now you are a potato and tomato"

You were born MWF, raised MWF but now you are LCA Mk 2.

 

[NutCracker]

Why is IAF so confident he cannot see through that charade? Was called the MWF for atleast a few years after all, allegedly changed at IAFs insistence. Anyone can see what's going on here.

Also these exFart twitter handles.. even these pets avoid calling it MWF to please the top brass.

 

[silverghost]

There is an ancient saying if you need a mango you don't thinks about building a mango. You think about nurturing a mango tree. Mango will come automatically.

Similarly we need ecosystem and infrastructure to master all engine related tech not just for aerospace but for every sector.

We need national engine mission just like we did igmdp for missiles and isro for space technologies.

We need to establish a mission which can then create all necessary infrastructure for all kinds of engine development and testing and certification from ground test bed to various flying test beds to everything else.

Such a mission should be steered by PMO and should have a budget of 20 Billion usd over next 10 years and then more.

That's the only way of we are truly serious about indegenous engines. Otherwise current ad hoc and disjointed approach and we will spend multiple times more on foreign engines forever.

Let this be an orthogonal project whose success/failure will have no immediate effect on the design & manufacture of Mk2, AMCA, TEDBF, etc. We need these fighter jets to be the best in class & it can't depend on unproven engine technology.