ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[johnj]

The IAF got 36 rafales they want 114 more . That's 150 right there . So a 30 reduction from their eventual end goal .
Let's see .. all indications seem like a new competition for MRFA is not possible .. if mmrca was anything to go by AMCA might be ready by the time price negotiations end

Sanctions, that's why iaf needed 180 m2k, now possibility of sanctions are low, and amca not a replacement of mmrca, but mk2 can replace mmrca,mrfa. Mrfa is safe plan, if mk2 r&d not going as planned, & importantly keeping sqn strength and to counter chinese advanced jets.
At the end goi buys 2 or 4 sqn off-the-shelf rafale[f4/f5], rest filled by mk2. or maybe goi dilute 110kn jv with 4 sqn of rafale+[additional cost|

 

[abingdonboy]

201 Tejas Mk2 was simply not feasible. At 24 per year, you'd be talking about Tejas Mk2 deliveries almost till 2036-37! Higher rate than that and it's almost not possible for the IAF to absorb so many per year.

108 is not a small number and it is likely to go up IF ADA and HAL meet the timelines that they commit to. GoI has to do it's bit with funds being released without any delays. Contract negotiations shouldn't be as long winded as they were for Mk1A. That's also IAF, HAL and MoD's responsibility.

You're being extremely pessimistic, whereas if you look at the IAF's procurement plan as shown in the screen grab from this page, the MRFA is the last import. AMCA is also high on their priority given the J-20 entering service in increasing numbers and the possibility of a J-35 variant entering PAF service in the next 5-6 years.

Tejas Mk2 is perfect for Mirage-2000, MiG-29 and Jaguar replacements which adds up to well over 160-170 units..is why the numbers are likely to go up IF ADA, HAL and other agencies can adhere to the timelines so production is not spilling over majorly into the 2030s.

If the GoI keeps kicking MRFA down the road or if this MRFA continues to be a rabbit hole, then expect the IAF to look at the Tejas Mk2 as the filler.

You cannot give those guys an inch, look at the games they will play with ATAGS,Arjun, LCH, LUH etc.

MRFA is sucking all the oxygen out of the room, LCA MK.2 would have to be their choice for 200++ units if they didn’t have to provision for 114@$25bn+++ and 14/year.

Production follows orders. If IAF gave a contract for 200+ LCA MK.2 they’d be produced >30/year no problem.

We all know this MRFA fantasy will implode within 5 years, at most they’ll get 2 more Rafale sqns off the shelf from it. In the meantime PLAAF is inducting 100jets annually.

it would be a different story had they signed MRFA 2 years ago and all 114 were to be in service come MK.2’s first flight but that’s not where we are.

 

[NutCracker]

Didn't the IAF chief lay down a plan for 30 somthing squadrons for by the mid 2030s ? In the timeframe for that the 42 squadrons .. won't the AMCA be the workhorse ?

Twin engine + stealth for workhorse ??

Guess why USA sold 3000 F-16 . And USAF operates 1200.

 

[NutCracker]

Sanctions, that's why iaf needed 180 m2k, now possibility of sanctions are low, and amca not a replacement of mmrca, but mk2 can replace mmrca,mrfa. Mrfa is safe plan, if mk2 r&d not going as planned, & importantly keeping sqn strength and to counter chinese advanced jets.
At the end goi buys 2 or 4 sqn off-the-shelf rafale[f4/f5], rest filled by mk2. or maybe goi dilute 110kn jv with 4 sqn of rafale+[additional cost|

Next 36 won't cost us 9B$ again.

Egypt bought first 30+ for ~225m$ as ours, then next 30+ cost them around 170m$.

Throw 13-15B$ for 36 + Safran to provide JV for 110kN engine.

We all know this MRFA fantasy will implode within 5 years, at most they’ll get 2 more Rafale sqns off the shelf from it. In the meantime PLAAF is inducting 100jets annually.

And porkies might be getting 1 squadron of j-10c atleast per year. China has printing machine for that aircraft.

 

[johnj]

Next 36 won't cost us 9B$ again.

Egypt bought first 30+ for ~225m$ as ours, then next 30+ cost them around 170m$.

Throw 13-15B$ for 36 + Safran to provide JV for 110kN engine.

additional cost for tech transfer + 4 sqn, 72 jets, around 15 billion+[8~10 year].

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

Didn't the IAF chief lay down a plan for 30 somthing squadrons for by the mid 2030s ? In the timeframe for that the 42 squadrons .. won't the AMCA be the workhorse ?

Twin engines are not known for being Workhorses. On the other medium category single engine fighters were always the work horse for lot of big airforces.

1. USA
F16 - 900+
F35 - 1000+

2. China
J10 - 500+

4. India
Mig 21 - 1000+ (At peak)


Only outlier is Russians

1. Mig 29

 

[NutCracker]

additional cost for tech transfer + 4 sqn, 72 jets, around 15 billion+[8~10 year].

72 more Rafale ??

I think buying 36 and making it 72 is optimal.

As per some articles each french base can handle 72 rafales. So i believe we already paid for the maintanence facility that can handle 72.

Just move all 72 towards China and let other resources take care of Pakistan.
Issue would only arise if porkiea recieve J-35.

 

[Hari Sud]

IAF asking for 150 plus mmrca from 2000.
IAF considering buying 12 sqn of lca. mk1 - 2 sqn. then rest 10 sqn 180- mk2, but mk1a take the place of 4 sqn, now 6 sqn, unfortunately iaf forced to buys around 15 or more sqn of lca.

‘Buy local; if the war is not upon us then wait until the local product is ready.

Remember that Chinese military hardware is mostly like dollar store rubbish. They know it but mass produce it anyway to intimidate others. Their best weapon is propaganda which they have used very effectively. Everything else is good for Pravin Sawhney’s book.

 

[Hari Sud]

72 more Rafale ??

I think buying 36 and making it 72 is optimal.

As per some articles each french base can handle 72 rafales. So i believe we already paid for the maintanence facility that can handle 72.

Just move all 72 towards China and let other resources take care of Pakistan.
Issue would only arise if porkiea recieve J-35.

‘Would you prefer 36 Rafale or upgraded F-18 with strengthened relationship with America.

 

[NutCracker]

‘Would you prefer 36 Rafale or upgraded F-18 with strengthened relationship with America.

Rafale..

We already buying 26 f-18 (Trust me vro) + G.E. is about to get their biggest ever multi billion market outside USA.
Thst should improve relationship with USA.

 

[abingdonboy]

‘Would you prefer 36 Rafale or upgraded F-18 with strengthened relationship with America.

Strengthened relationship with the most unreliable partner in the world? Rafale buys india strategic autonomy. There was already multiple calls to sanction india by US bodies just in the last 5 years

 

[THESIS THORON]

He is the one who hinted about this earlier this month....

that is your twitter handle na ?

 

[Blademaster]

Twin engines are not known for being Workhorses. On the other medium category single engine fighters were always the work horse for lot of big airforces.

1. USA
F16 - 900+
F35 - 1000+

2. China
J10 - 500+

4. India
Mig 21 - 1000+ (At peak)


Only outlier is Russians

1. Mig 29

Russians are outlier only because of their vast country size. They need more space to carry all that fuel to get one across the country without multiple refueling stops.

 

[NutCracker]

Russians are outlier only because of their vast country size. They need more space to carry all that fuel to get one across the country without multiple refueling stops.

And their engines are not as reliable as western ones , so redundancy.


Rd-33/93 might've been costing them only 2 - 3 M $ only.

 

[Vamsi]

that is your twitter handle na ?

NO

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Russians are outlier only because of their vast country size. They need more space to carry all that fuel to get one across the country without multiple refueling stops.

The only reason why Russian have twin engine design is due to unreliability of their engine.
If fuel economy for the jet is the primary concern single engine jets always have a better fuel economy than twin engine jets.

 

[abingdonboy]

Next 36 won't cost us 9B$ again.

Egypt bought first 30+ for ~225m$ as ours, then next 30+ cost them around 170m$.

Throw 13-15B$ for 36 + Safran to provide JV for 110kN engine.




And porkies might be getting 1 squadron of j-10c atleast per year. China has printing machine for that aircraft.

because of the fixed costs* paid for in the original 36 unit deal the next 36 will be 40% cheaper (a package price) for IAF, that IAF/GoI are not snatching this opportunity is actual criminal mismanagement at a time when the IAF’s squadron strength is in freefall and LAC is heating up. IAF’s ‘114 or nothing’ approach deserves to be slapped down by GoI and they should be put in their place. I don’t know what world they are living in, NO ONE (bar maybe the oil rich ME nations) buys 100+ 4.5 gen fighters, anyone that has that kind of buying power makes their own these days. This is their 30 year old dream of MMRCA that they won’t let go.

* the $2bn ISE and the 2 bases that were created to support 2X squadrons each costs have already been amortised over tranche 1 and won’t have to be paid again.

i am genuinely shocked Modi has let this farce play out for the entire 8+ years of his leadership now. He’s someone that is apparently fixated with delivery and tracks progress diligently, surely he’s capable of measuring the IAF’s strength and using that as the benchmark to judge success/failure. Instead he took one call in 2015 (36 Rafales) and seems to have washed his hands of the entire subject thereafter. The tail is very much wagging the dog now- IAF have floated their MRFA demands and never waivered all whilst cutting commitments to LCA MK.2

 

[abingdonboy]

Didn't the IAF chief lay down a plan for 30 somthing squadrons for by the mid 2030s ? In the timeframe for that the 42 squadrons .. won't the AMCA be the workhorse ?

5th gen is unlikely to be the backbone of any airforce because they are very fragile (skin) and maintenance intensive. The B2/F-22 needs something like 20+ hours in maintenance for every 1 flight hour

USAF are themselves thinking of deploying a 4.5+ gen fighter to replace the F-16s

5th gen are war machines meant to knock the door down on day 1 of a war but they can never be your backbone for regular duties.

 

[IndianHawk]

Twin engines are not known for being Workhorses. On the other medium category single engine fighters were always the work horse for lot of big airforces.

1. USA
F16 - 900+
F35 - 1000+

2. China
J10 - 500+

4. India
Mig 21 - 1000+ (At peak)


Only outlier is Russians

1. Mig 29

Russian are outlier because they don't have a reliable singel engine.
That's why j10 and jf17 have such absymal availablity rates and keep crashing.

 

[Blademaster]

The only reason why Russian have twin engine design is due to unreliability of their engine.
If fuel economy for the jet is the primary concern single engine jets always have a better fuel economy than twin engine jets.

No. It is because they need bigger fuel tanks to get more distance and that translate into more weight penalty, hence two engines.