ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[flanker99]

WOT?

Rebranded j35 if chicha chinky agrees...something like that Pakvac

 

[Kalkioftoday]

WOT?

Very much possible cuz their jhatu Azm is nothing but a imported chinese FC-31 with a indigenous paki green paint

 

[Sir pe tapla]

WOT?

Their 5th gen plane

 

[Covfefe]

Let the porkys fix a design first.and dont copy green toilet flag on TFX or any other design then go full on like the iranian qaher 313 and make RC version of it and sell it PAF

But you gotta give it to the Pakis that they are atleast clear in their head as to what they want, and then they get it in time. Not like our armed forces who will develop requirements which is satisfied by no goddamn product in the market and then end up buying some Ruski stuff

 

[Sir pe tapla]

Don't wanna say it but it looks like this paki jhatu is a fortune teller

How is he right? He is saying 15 years for AMCA to fly. First flight of AMCA is way before that. 2035 is production date

 

[Sir pe tapla]

But you gotta give it to the Pakis that they are atleast clear in their head as to what they want, and then they get it in time. Not like our armed forces who will develop requirements which is satisfied by no goddamn product in the market and then end up buying some Ruski stuff

How in the world are they even going to fly 5th gen planes? They already use more than their GDP to pay back debt and each year their debt keeps on increasing. With IMF refusing to clear any loans and China giving loans at high interests, how will their economy even support an airforce with sufficient quantity of 5th gen planes??

 

[Kuldeepm952]

AMCA induction in 2035?? Is this mk2 version??
Wasn't AMCA mk1 supposed to be fielded by 2030?
ORCA concept is being pushed to IAF by HAL from this early stage itself and can be considered doable. Producing TEDBF only for a limited number for Navy doesn't makes sense, I guess ORCA is inevitable given that we will eventually require 60 squadrons in future given the fact about ever fast increasing capability of our 2 (un)friendly nations especially china. Heck even a case for low observable Tejas mk3 makes sense if we want to reach 60 sqns fighter strength quickly.

 

[Covfefe]

How in the world are they even going to fly 5th gen planes? They already use more than their GDP to pay back debt and each year their debt keeps on increasing. With IMF refusing to clear any loans and China giving loans at high interests, how will their economy even support an airforce with sufficient quantity of 5th gen planes??

Just the way they got S300 Chinki equivalent this year. As long as Pakis have blood, kidneys and liver,-"Inshallah" is how Pakjabi Army Pvt Ltd rolls
You won't hear of defense cuts. It will be always the welfare programs

 

[Covfefe]

Can't TEDBF be a BF for AF too?

 

[Kuldeepm952]

So our current TEDBF/ORCA? concept is reduced observable at best.
In my opinion there should be a detailed study on low observable fighters(5gen minus) which can be produced en mass yet avoid the hassle of expensive manufacturing and all the other nitty gritty of true stealth plane. Like how do LO fighters perform with loyal wingmans in future warfare scenarios in both goundstrike and Air dominance? Their cost vs capability analysis.

In this context, I think there is a plausible reason to have LO versions of Tejas/single engine fighter and tedbf/orca with all around shaping and internal weapon bays with implementable 5th gen avionics and characteristics.
Sadly, I don't see any non LO plane(including present Tejas mwf and current tedbf) being much survivable in future warfare especially with the rate at which China is inducting 5th gen planes.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Can anyone comment about the low observable aspect of TEDBF vis a vis kf21.
If I am not wrong kf21 was designed with uprgadability in the sense that it can be upgraded to 5th gen theoretically while same is not possible for TEDBF due to structure design.
I think kf21 easily beats tedbf on overall LO characteristic with TEDBF being lo in frontal aspect only. What about a more stealthy TEDBF mk2 which at that point would be a very new design itself?
But damn, teddy looks so chonky like big chungus and would you look at that spine and biggy cockpit canopy.

I

 

[THESIS THORON]

View attachment 121764

Can anyone comment about the low observable aspect of TEDBF vis a vis kf21.
If I am not wrong kf21 was designed with uprgadability in the sense that it can be upgraded to 5th gen theoretically while same is not possible for TEDBF due to structure design.
I think kf21 easily beats tedbf on overall LO characteristic with TEDBF being lo in frontal aspect only. What about a more stealthy TEDBF mk2 which at that point would be a very new design itself?
But damn, teddy looks so chonky like big chungus and would you look at that spine and biggy cockpit canopy.View attachment 121765

I

it is for navy.

if you think navy will induct this as 5th gen then you are wrong, for that amca will be inducted by navy.

and the 4.5 gen aircraft will not go anywhere for considerable amt of time.

plus you need some jet which is able to do sorties with minimal repairs, bec in sea there will be no big ol' maintenace facilities.

 

[Blank]

View attachment 121760

So our current TEDBF/ORCA? concept is reduced observable at best.
In my opinion there should be a detailed study on low observable fighters(5gen minus) which can be produced en mass yet avoid the hassle of expensive manufacturing and all the other nitty gritty of true stealth plane. Like how do LO fighters perform with loyal wingmans in future warfare scenarios in both goundstrike and Air dominance? Their cost vs capability analysis.

In this context, I think there is a plausible reason to have LO versions of Tejas/single engine fighter and tedbf/orca with all around shaping and internal weapon bays with implementable 5th gen avionics and characteristics.
Sadly, I don't see any non LO plane(including present Tejas mwf and current tedbf) being much survivable in future warfare especially with the rate at which China is inducting 5th gen planes.

IMO In the eastern theatre (or the western theatre for China). I feel Chinese flankers are more of a standard then LO aircraft. Last year, more then J-20 China banked more on newly commissioned J-16s

 

[Kuldeepm952]

it is for navy.

if you think navy will induct this as 5th gen then you are wrong, for that amca will be inducted by navy.

and the 4.5 gen aircraft will not go anywhere for considerable amt of time.

plus you need some jet which is able to do sorties with minimal repairs, bec in sea there will be no big ol' maintenace facilities.

Ok so understand there are two versions of 4.5 gen I am talking about, one is TEDBF with frontal stealth only and the other is kf21 with all around stealth and Internal weapon Bays(IWB), except than these all other things are same between the two, maybe some extra coatings on KF21 and conformal antennas. Now how much does 2nd type compares to 1st type in performance against adversary like china. It is clear on layman analysis that 2nd type indeed has better prospects and should not be expensive than 1st one if at all as the major difference is IWB and coatings, shaping is done during designing and won't cost during manufacturing.
Let's say USAF inducts their so called less than 5th gen fighter, than it would likely be the 2nd type. Again we are behind the curve, it's all about what is better and likely to persist.
What we are going to make Tejas mk2/TEDBF are 4.5 gen which west powers have been manufacturing for a long time as of now, we should make future 5th gen minus systems not the yesterday's 5th gen minus systems.

These are my views regarding what future iterations or you can say natural progression of Tejas and TEDBF systems should look like. The Era where low observability of planes as a feature can't be ignored anymore is likely to dawning upon us by the end of this or next decade. Again I am pretty clear about my distinction between reduced observable and low observable in the kf21 info pic I posted. Very low observable will be 5th gen.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

IMO In the eastern theatre (or the western theatre for China). I feel Chinese flankers are more of a standard then LO aircraft. Last year, more then J-20 China banked more on newly commissioned J-16s

The rate at which they are building and the amount of types they will have, 5th gen, it wouldn't be wrong to assume with PLAAF having 400+ 5th gen by the 2040 particularly for India. We can't really match them in economy, that's why AMCA plus the LO versions of Tejas and TEDBF along with CATS. Our AMCA won't really enjoy quantity advantage and are likely to be very expensive, on the otherhand LO fighters can be ordered enmass while still remaining quite survivable in such a dense stealth fighter environment with our western neighbor.

 

[Tactical Doge]

How in the world are they even going to fly 5th gen planes? They already use more than their GDP to pay back debt and each year their debt keeps on increasing. With IMF refusing to clear any loans and China giving loans at high interests, how will their economy even support an airforce with sufficient quantity of 5th gen planes??

Chinese will find a way
Pakshitan is China's insurance policy against India for the time being, possible an insurance policy against India for The Americans 6-7 decades down the line
Pakshitan failed state, economic collapse, all the ooga booga are just meme, it'll stay afloat

 

[Lancer]

This looks more realistic and feasible timelines.

However going by recent statement of our UNAF chief he is looking to induct AMCA by 2030 which do not look possible as of now ..So he might be making a case for SU 75 ..

Wouldn't be a bad idea to pick up a couple squadrons off the shelf and customize them with help from close allies. Would boost squadron strength, and give us early access to 5th gen/stealth capability + experience for operating such fighters.

Might even provide valuable insights/lessons for AMCA development.

 

[IndianHawk]

Wouldn't be a bad idea to pick up a couple squadrons off the shelf and customize them with help from close allies. Would boost squadron strength, and give us early access to 5th gen/stealth capability + experience for operating such fighters.

Might even provide valuable insights/lessons for AMCA development.

IAF has already determined Rafale to be a better bet than su57 for now.

That may change once su57 gets new engine in new avionics . A mature su57 after 2025 may be on IAF radar if amca program is delayed. That may help in at least securing chinese border with combination of Rafale and su57.

But it depends on how much delay is there for AMCA and how fast chinese can solve multiple issues of j20 from propulsion to avionics to production speed.

 

[Brood Father]

IAF has already determined Rafale to be a better bet than su57 for now.

That may change once su57 gets new engine in new avionics . A mature su57 after 2025 may be on IAF radar if amca program is delayed. That may help in at least securing chinese border with combination of Rafale and su57.

But it depends on how much delay is there for AMCA and how fast chinese can solve multiple issues of j20 from propulsion to avionics to production speed.

We are going into the same loop over and over again
For the want of AMCA, Tejas MK2 was lost
For the want of SU57 , AMCA was lost

We started very late with the cutting edge techs so its natural that we will take time to develop/mature them . However that will never be feasible of we keep on investing on foreign tech . Rafales already/will have taken out good chunk of money out of the defence budget and if we go for SU75/57 we can say goodbye for our self reliance drive .
No system is perfect , it is made perfect from incremental process.. French didn't created the Rafale on day 1 , they perfected it over the years . We have to trust our weapons (atleast which are more or less upto standards as per the requirements) and should shun the romance of foreign maal.

 

[IndianHawk]

We are going into the same loop over and over again
For the want of AMCA, Tejas MK2 was lost
For the want of SU57 , AMCA was lost

We started very late with the cutting edge techs so its natural that we will take time to develop/mature them . However that will never be feasible of we keep on investing on foreign tech . Rafales already/will have taken out good chunk of money out of the defence budget and if we go for SU75/57 we can say goodbye for our self reliance drive .
No system is perfect , it is made perfect from incremental process.. French didn't created the Rafale on day 1 , they perfected it over the years . We have to trust our weapons (atleast which are more or less upto standards as per the requirements) and should shun the romance of foreign maal.

While I agree with gist of your post there are certain facts
1. Mk2 is not lost its progressing very well.
2. Rafale is result of requirement IAF demand 2 decades ago. It had no conflict with lca program back then. Only now mk2 can take away some of rafales numbers but again we have dropped out of fgfa too and IAF needs something to put against j20/ su35. Also mk2 will only be battle ready after 2030 when we will have it in decent numbers and all tactics / weapons integration would be complete. Rafale is mature today . So we need it meanwhile.

AMCA won't come before 2032 anyway so again we need something to keep the age meanwhile otherwise we may end up lamenting lost edge over our adverseris.