ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[ersakthivel]

1. No one said that it is gnat but he design was based on the success of gnat IAF wanted a agile and maneuverable dog fighter like gnat. since kurt tank was the one who designed it based on successful mirage design.

2. Tejas was not designed to bridge the gap but to build machine to fight with enemy. due to the delay i became a phrase where drdo started saying that it is our start and tech demo to build industry. but the real reason was delay both from political will and DRDO.



we know that but kaveri is still atleast a decade away and russian engine would have been easy for us resulting in earlier deployment of tejas. russia is the nation which was ready to give us cryogenic engine in early 90's. a russian engine was always a safe bet than no engine.

thats why i say drdo /gtre lives in a world of their own dreams we always were aware of this that usa supports pak we were sanctioned in 1974 too remember? russia tried to give us cryogenic engine who stopped it?

Brahmos is another example and so is our nuclear triad of russian indian combine unfortunate it is that a turbofan engine is not added into it

[ QUOTE] All airforces in the world bar china and russia(whose engine tech is not equal to west) have single engine planes as majority, Far into future many europen airforces and USAF will be single engine dominated with the huge F-16s at present and the arrival of F-35 which is also single engined.

single engine f-16 and single engine tejas are no comparison f-16 is a jet of 70's the new evolve f-16 blk 60 is much bigger and have more capability. it is not abt single engine or double engine but simple fact in our operational scenario where we prefer twin engine. just read iaf doctrine why they want twin engine jets.



Here you are wrong again it does not even hal ask iaf to induct it to help in industry building iaf said yes to tejas mk1 a as hal said they cannot deliver mk2 before 2022 and iaf believes and many others they may extend that dead line too finger crossed on mk2 let it come first then tell what it is or not.



No it is not going to be better but will be indian so yes am good. But please in our swadeshi pyaar don't say we will develop better radar then elta 2052 in next two years. we could have got it if our political leadership had a little bit love for our domestic projects.



4.5 th tell this to iaf and HAl and see how they respond. though i like the idea tejas filling the gap as a trainer between fifth gen jet as a fourth gen trainer. IAF is going to do the same.



80 tonnes really? it is not functioning well and constant failure was one of the prime reason it was closed. there will be major changes in the design.



i agree on that and we all know what upa did to all defense projects but then they did the same too marut one of the reason we are still stuck here.



Arjun is seriously heavy and even drdo acknowledges it there have been two suggestion too reduce the weight but on't know whether they will be able to reduce it. one is an american gas turbine engine but that will require serious engineering challenge. second is use of composites in engine and structure in very high amount like japanese did with their tyep1.

arjun line can be kept open with other 200 - 300 order need not order 500 or so tanks right now. t-90 are quite cheap at less than half the price of arjun. they should work on



depends if i say i want an indian attack on pakistan compltely turning them into ashes and taking punjab and kashmir back diving them into baloch .

it is bad really bad. trust me our pm modi if he had a clear advantage over pak he will not shy away from doing so when he will get such opportunity. we know a next terror attack will happen and we have to prepare to use that as a leverage to attack pak and settle the score even.



well i will say navy got good PR , tell me why they are not interested in naval amca and did they put req for tejas? IAF ask DRDO to make an indigenous fighter not the other way around.

CAG also says tejas is not able to meet iaf requirements and is a nightmare for pilots. go read that too.

do not do iaf bashing they waited for sitara for a decade resulting in death of many pilots low level of training.

mig 21 were supposed to be replaced in early 21st century but they waited for tejas. hal / ada unka kaat rhi they also know that




they have years of experience please do not bring f-35 f-22 into pic when we talk abt tejas it hijacks the whole point.[/QUOTE]

1.Which airforce in the world doesn't want a agile, fast small enough, cost economical fighter which is built of composites with low frontal RCS, 4.5th gen fly by wire Relaxed Static Stability (RSS) 4 channel all fly by wire tech, geared towards high Instantaneous turn rate which is important with the advent of look -lock shoot high offbore visuallay cued HMDS enabled hard to escape WVR misile like R-73?
First of all do you even know what are the 4.5th gen techs in fighters?
they are,
\1. composite low RCS airframe,
2, low wing loading,
3. high thrust to weight ratio,
4, Relaxed Static Stability , 4 channel digital fly by wire tech,
5, internal EW suits with DRFM based tech,
6. OBORG,
7,HMDS enabled high off bore visually cued close combat missile,
8. Ability to track and scan around 100 Km infront and ability to fire a close to 100 Km range BVR.

tejas has all the above,

Gnat has none of that and it is light years away from tejas design , weapon load, close combat ability, and range along with multi role capability.


Gant aerodynamically has noting in common with tejas, got to know that if you think you are good enough to pas expert comment on mil-aviation, just basing fake arguments on a compilation of a few stupid Rajat pandit -Times of India article is an attempt to confuse other people regarding the design philosophy and military potential of tejas, this game is often played by import lobby journalists , It is as stupid as saying gripen too was based on Gnat.

2, when few air force personnel proposed a monkey version of upgraded mig-21 (read TKS tales)

https://tkstales.wordpress.com/2012/04/02/the-tejas-arrives/

Scientific community rightly refuted it and went for this tejas, which is hundred percent correct because after the inclusion of F-16 in PAF it doesn't make sense to commit to a monkey version of improved mig-21 to take them on, IAF went for mig-29, mirage-2000 purchase and lated su-30 MKIto take on F-16 not more mig-21s.

SO a fighting machine has to be modern enough if we have to commit billions of dollars of resources and keep it in service for 3 decades and depending on it to do crucial nation security related tasks.

3. there is no reliable russian engine to power a single engine fighter. thats all nothing more nothing less. And certainly none that could enable a light fighter to operate in airspace contested by F-16s.

4. All single engined fighters are single engines, regardless of how big or small they are, gripen has the same engines and is going on winning contract after contract . Like F-16 which evolved continuously , tejas mk2 evolution will also match F-16 latest blk.

Fundign for two TDs in LCA program was given in 1992, IOC-2 in 2013, FOC in 2016, compare that to typhoon, rafale, gripen C time frames. Twenty years is more or less the norm,

If politicians cheat the people by saying LCA from 1980s onwards no magic wand will cut the development time. Full fledged funding need to be given along with infra.
In 1983 GOI gave 500 crs for setting up infra and completing feasibility study by paying various foreign consultants. It was finished in 1989 and the report was ready, but funding for two tech demos to develop LCA was given only in 1993 a four year gap.


ADA asked for a faster development model with 4000 crores up front and seting up a full fledged production line to speedily roll out LSPs , but IAF didnt even wish to spare a penny and strongly opposed it leading to a compromise stitched together by Abdul kalam to turn it inot a tech demo based , longer gestation program , with no dedicated production line,leading to LSPs rolled out from obsolete Jaguar production line with modifications time consuming affair,because HAL didnt expect any top line contribution from LCA so didnt spare enough resources for that.

IAF jpoined the program only in 2006 and asked for olderplain IR WVR missile weighing 60 Kg at the wing tip to be changed to 75 Kg newer R-73 with HMDS enabled visually cueing system, which led to redeisgn of the wing in 2009 in FSED phase-2, which further delayed the program.

It is the monumental stupidity of the power to be that delayed the program and it is a miracle that it survived without a crash for two decades resulting in a cuttign edge fighter option for IAf at mouth wateringly low cost.

Russia only gave a few cryogenic engine and no engine tech,they balked under US pressure and reneged on TOT for cryo engine deal, just read up, because you yourself are misinformed aon confusing people here again and again repeatedly by posting ill informed stuff.

Kaveri has a funtonal core in kabini, and certification is being worked on, it is not that GTRE does not have a working engine , and Kaveri will be fitted on AURA UCAV which is even more important weapon(no one will sell engines for them because of MTCR restrictions)

And if HAL cuts weight of tejas from present 6.5 ton to 5.5 ton by removing the ballast and redesigning the landing gear, with experience gained from naval tejas project under the consulktancy of EADS , then kaveri can easily power the tejas mk1A with 5.5 ton empty weight.

For the import lovers, the cost of griepn comes to around 125 million per plane if we take the recent brazil deal, tejas comes around 26 million(A jet trainer hawk costs 22 million!!!)

IAF doesnt need tejas mk2 at all most of tis needs will be met by tejas mk1 and the weight reduced tejas mk1A.Thats why HAL is asking for 64 more tejas mk1 A orders to give advance orders to its vendors to continue the tejas production line non stop, And IAF which cries hoarse about fighter shortage is so far maintaining a stony silence on it!!!

200 million dollar rafales are never going to be a big part of IAF, only token presence with just aqround 36 units, If IAF has to reach 45 sqdns it is tejas mk1A and tejas mk2 that will lead to it in the immediate future at 16 fighters per annum with 30 million dollar per plane with indigenous astra missile.

that will lead to kick strating of indian mil aviation industry with private players puttign in money for a second tejas production line.

Why did Amabani invest in submarine and helo production line, Because he knows navy builds all its subs here and expecting some helo part order from GOI.

Tejas has leapfroged the indian fighter manufacture to the begigning stage by evolving all techs needed for 4.5 the gen fighter with a viable fighter as a fruit.

now it is time for IAF to give orders, not nitpicking about 30 year 40 year non existing delays and fictional performance shortfalls.More than 400 planes IAf are dino era compared tejas mk1 alone let alone mk1 A and mk2!!!!

From your ill informed comments it seems that you dont even have the foggiest idea of what is a 4.5th gen fighter and what are the tech and capabilties of tejas mk1,

Shining brochures and sleek PR along with paid journos alone wont make a 4.5th gen fighter.It is the tech that has gone into more than 2800 test flights of tejas which makes a 4.5th gen fighter.

 

[Yumdoot]

80 tonnes really? iit is not functioning well and constant failure was one of the prime reason it was closed. there will be major changes in the design.

He said 80KN and not 80 tonne.

Kaveri was closed because IAF had successfully sabotaged it by not releasing even gas money much less a Mig29 to test it.

mig 21 were supposed to be replaced in early 21st century but they waited for tejas. hal / ada unka kaat rhi they also know that
<snip>
they have years of experience please do not bring f-35 f-22 into pic when we talk abt tejas it hijacks the whole point.

Mig-21 of 2nd generations have beaten F-15Cs of Gen 4+. What is to say LCAs won't repeat the feat against the vaunted F-35.

Filum Abhi baaki hai mere dost.

@ersakthivel you have trouble generating quotes in your posts. The above one makes no sense.

 

[kstriya]

@ersakthivel, your the best to spank the arses of the trolled knowledgeable folks. It would be helpful if you can further elaborate the relevance of Kaveri GTRE engine in a reduced tonnage of Tejas MK 1, its advantages and disadvantages. My bet is on the desi engine to power this Indian bird.And last please keep spanking the trolls I enjoy their genocide .

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel, your the best to spank the arses of the trolled knowledgeable folks. It would be helpful if you can further elaborate the relevance of Kaveri GTRE engine in a reduced tonnage of Tejas MK 1, its advantages and disadvantages. My bet is on the desi engine to power this Indian bird.And last please keep spanking the trolls I enjoy their genocide .

if HAL delivers a 5.5 ton tejas mk1A then the 80 Kn power of GTRE alone is good enough to make tejas
1.lift 4.5 ton pay load ,
2, have longer range,
3. have higher sustained turn rate and higher Instantaneous turn rate,
4.have higher top speed at both sea level and service ceiling.

All the above are the goals of tejas mk2 program for IAF.
HAl claims it can reduce weight on IAF tejas mk1 weight after the experience gained from EADS consultancy on naval tejas and specifically landing gear, so there must be some truth behind it,
lets see whether HAL can deliver the 5.5 ton tejas mk1A as it promised,
Even HAL reduces weight by 750 Kg then kaveri K-9 will be relevant.

 

[ersakthivel]

1. No one said that it is gnat but he design was based on the success of gnat IAF wanted a agile and maneuverable dog fighter like gnat. since kurt tank was the one who designed it based on successful mirage design.

2. Tejas was not designed to bridge the gap but to build machine to fight with enemy. due to the delay i became a phrase where drdo started saying that it is our start and tech demo to build industry. but the real reason was delay both from political will and DRDO.



we know that but kaveri is still atleast a decade away and russian engine would have been easy for us resulting in earlier deployment of tejas. russia is the nation which was ready to give us cryogenic engine in early 90's. a russian engine was always a safe bet than no engine.

thats why i say drdo /gtre lives in a world of their own dreams we always were aware of this that usa supports pak we were sanctioned in 1974 too remember? russia tried to give us cryogenic engine who stopped it?

Brahmos is another example and so is our nuclear triad of russian indian combine unfortunate it is that a turbofan engine is not added into it

[ QUOTE] All airforces in the world bar china and russia(whose engine tech is not equal to west) have single engine planes as majority, Far into future many europen airforces and USAF will be single engine dominated with the huge F-16s at present and the arrival of F-35 which is also single engined.

single engine f-16 and single engine tejas are no comparison f-16 is a jet of 70's the new evolve f-16 blk 60 is much bigger and have more capability. it is not abt single engine or double engine but simple fact in our operational scenario where we prefer twin engine. just read iaf doctrine why they want twin engine jets.



Here you are wrong again it does not even hal ask iaf to induct it to help in industry building iaf said yes to tejas mk1 a as hal said they cannot deliver mk2 before 2022 and iaf believes and many others they may extend that dead line too finger crossed on mk2 let it come first then tell what it is or not.



No it is not going to be better but will be indian so yes am good. But please in our swadeshi pyaar don't say we will develop better radar then elta 2052 in next two years. we could have got it if our political leadership had a little bit love for our domestic projects.



4.5 th tell this to iaf and HAl and see how they respond. though i like the idea tejas filling the gap as a trainer between fifth gen jet as a fourth gen trainer. IAF is going to do the same.



80 tonnes really? it is not functioning well and constant failure was one of the prime reason it was closed. there will be major changes in the design.



i agree on that and we all know what upa did to all defense projects but then they did the same too marut one of the reason we are still stuck here.



Arjun is seriously heavy and even drdo acknowledges it there have been two suggestion too reduce the weight but on't know whether they will be able to reduce it. one is an american gas turbine engine but that will require serious engineering challenge. second is use of composites in engine and structure in very high amount like japanese did with their tyep1.

arjun line can be kept open with other 200 - 300 order need not order 500 or so tanks right now. t-90 are quite cheap at less than half the price of arjun. they should work on



depends if i say i want an indian attack on pakistan compltely turning them into ashes and taking punjab and kashmir back diving them into baloch .

it is bad really bad. trust me our pm modi if he had a clear advantage over pak he will not shy away from doing so when he will get such opportunity. we know a next terror attack will happen and we have to prepare to use that as a leverage to attack pak and settle the score even.



well i will say navy got good PR , tell me why they are not interested in naval amca and did they put req for tejas? IAF ask DRDO to make an indigenous fighter not the other way around.

CAG also says tejas is not able to meet iaf requirements and is a nightmare for pilots. go read that too.

do not do iaf bashing they waited for sitara for a decade resulting in death of many pilots low level of training.

mig 21 were supposed to be replaced in early 21st century but they waited for tejas. hal / ada unka kaat rhi they also know that




they have years of experience please do not bring f-35 f-22 into pic when we talk abt tejas it hijacks the whole point.[/QUOTE]


In aeroindia 2013 and 2011 it completed a full vertical loop in 19 -20 seconds even with its 20 deg AOA , 6G, 80 percent FCS opening limit along with extra 400 Kg testing telemetry equipments on board restrictions..

It has HMDS enabld high off bore visually cued WVR missile R-73 E(same as that of SU-30 MKI) as its primary close combat weapon,

So it must be good enough for dog fightsw I think.
It completed a horizonatl loop in the same config in around 20 seconds.
bangalore where those airshows were done is located at 1000 meter above sea level and has an atmosphere temp of 30 plus degs.

even rafale completed the same vertical loop in the same 20 seconds , same with Su-30 MKI.

Such a plane coming at a cost of 26 million dollars per piece is a real break through for IAF.

No use repeatedly comparing it to Ajeet, Gnat replacement.

Only fools who dont know anything about flight envelope opening, IOC -2 specs will keep their idea of tejas based on CAR report, which was a bunch of reports prior to IOC-2 certification.

All the points reported by CAG were all cleared including state of the art DRFM based Ew suit in PV-1. And none of the IAF fighter has any internal EW suit inclusing mig-29 and SU-30 MKI, that doesnt make them inferior they all carry podded Ew suit just like tejas is doing, and it doesnt compromise their power.
Also no fighter in todays world has armor protection for pilots icluding typhoon, rafale, gripen.
Also al;l; braking issues metioned in the report were cleared.
And even the 1 ton overweight claim is now being remedied by HAL on tejas mk1 A design.

And more than 200 gripen C/Ds flying now have the same tejas mk1's 6.5 ton emoty weight with 80 Kn engine(84 kn for tejas mk1) and they are all doing fine. So 6.5 ton empty weight for a 84 kn eninge fighter is no albatross around the neck, in fact the thrust to weight raio is much better than that of mirage-2000, J-10, and all versions of migs except mig-29.

 

[kstriya]

if HAL delivers a 5.5 ton tejas mk1A then the 80 Kn power of GTRE alone is good enough to make tejas
1.lift 4.5 ton pay load ,
2, have longer range,
3. have higher sustained turn rate and higher Instantaneous turn rate,
4.have higher top speed at both sea level and service ceiling.

All the above are the goals of tejas mk2 program for IAF.
HAl claims it can reduce weight on IAF tejas mk1 weight after the experience gained from EADS consultancy on naval tejas and specifically landing gear, so there must be some truth behind it,
lets see whether HAL can deliver the 5.5 ton tejas mk1A as it promised,
Even HAL reduces weight by 750 Kg then kaveri K-9 will be relevant.

What about the trolls reasoning that Kaveri is a leaky engine? Any substance in their mongering..
Can you provide an comparison with the Ge404 and K9, where our engine excels and where it is required to improve. And what is achievable?

Is there any other engine under development for replacement for the GE414?

 

[3The Crossbow]

He said 80KN and not 80 tonne.

Kaveri was closed because IAF had successfully sabotaged it by not releasing even gas money much less a Mig29 to test it.



Mig-21 of 2nd generations have beaten F-15Cs of Gen 4+. What is to say LCAs won't repeat the feat against the vaunted F-35.

Filum Abhi baaki hai mere dost.

@ersakthivel you have trouble generating quotes in your posts. The above one makes no sense.

mig 21 were partially successful as they were hard to spot due to their tiny size. Frankly speaking mig 21 itself is a great jet though ersakthivel just called it a monkey.. and if mig 21 is good enough then how come jf-17 which is actually a evolution of mig 21 with wings of f-16 is a crap?

Seriously it is too filmy to say lca is going to take on f-35 or mig 21 is better than f-15.
war are not won based on assumption and even DRDO/HAL will like to stay away from making such comments.

I do not understand IAF bashing please let me know who asked for a indigenous fighter jet ?

The only fault with IAF is they want best to beat the best out there. we must understand to win any war we will require a complete air dominance that can be achieved only if we outmatch in number and quality both as its not going to be video game played back home.

IAF waited for sitaara for ages so that money can be saved and support indigenous stuff but repeated failure of hal meant iaf training program is affected drastically with second stage training taking place on kiran. please understand hal is not able to deliver nor ada/drdo on time.

 

[Kharavela]

confidence in what read his full statement and previous one too. It goes by it is good because we have to go indigenous nothing else.

And bottom line is Tejas mk2 is still a paper plane and will taken 4-5 years to even come on sky.
tejas mk1 A/p improved one is also in paper only.



Hmm we can give excuses money didn't came this did not happened and blah blah.
but the fact remains started in 83 the whole process was running at snail pace. during 2004 - 2006 it was relized by ada /drdo iaf that this jet cannot meet the specification nor kaveri is going to happen in coming years but still continued to push tejas on iaf. by that they could have tried to go for twin engine jet.



This is how jf-17 is designed ripped off from from f-16 and mig 21 even tejas is based on mirage. if u have a proven platform try to improve that and perhaps take russian help in designing an indian mig 35 .



RSS is sangh and is quite old lol

DID i said stealth no i never did .... low rcs ? i don't think its going to make huge diff as missiles will be hanging out until it is reduced very significantly

It's not rambo but it is what china does. Take a platform which is proven improve on it develop avionics and tech for the platform and keep on updating it.

the bottom line is deliver first before chest thumping.

One more brainless loudspeaker => @3The Crossbow

Do you even understand anything regarding Tejas ?? Before announcing your empty brain in this thread, read all the posts of http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/ada-lca-tejas-iv.43717/
and more particularly by @ersakthivel to understand the LCA-Tejas timeline & achievements.

 

[3The Crossbow]

In aeroindia 2013 and 2011 it completed a full vertical loop in 19 -20 seconds even with its 20 deg AOA , 6G, 80 percent FCS opening limit along with extra 400 Kg testing telemetry equipments on board restrictions..

It has HMDS enabld high off bore visually cued WVR missile R-73 E(same as that of SU-30 MKI) as its primary close combat weapon,

So it must be good enough for dog fightsw I think.

good enough? good enough is never enough when you are surrounded with highly unstable neighborhood

best or equal to best this is what we need in a war and this makes all the difference.

It completed a horizonatl loop in the same config in around 20 seconds.
bangalore where those airshows were done is located at 1000 meter above sea level and has an atmosphere temp of 30 plus degs.

even rafale completed the same vertical loop in the same 20 seconds , same with Su-30 MKI.

Such a plane coming at a cost of 26 million dollars per piece is a real break through for IAF.

Please update yourself on the price of tejas and stop using Wikipedia and old sources.

It is over 180 crores now and is going to rise continuously as rupee weakens against dollar. close to 30 million and then if include dev cost much more expensive than this...
but that is not what we should be worried about if atleast we can increase the indigenous content more is it good to develop indian industry thats why iaf is supporting it and they did the same with hal sitara even jeopardizing the training of iaf pilots which might have resulted in migs crashes due to bad training.


[/QUOTE] No use repeatedly comparing it to Ajeet, Gnat replacement. [/QUOTE]

no one is saying it is gnat but the experience with gnat let iaf look for small maneuverable and agile fighter. you must understand to argue you need to have a valid point not just circumventing the same line again and again.

not every one look for small fighter russia like big sukhoi's USA got f-15 f-18 f-22 f-35 these are pretty huge plane.
but iaf wanted a small one initially for dogfights though their priority is changed now due to higher thrust engine and want medium size jets along with high end sukhoi.

Only fools who don't know anything about flight envelope opening, IOC -2 specs will keep their idea of tejas based on CAR report, which was a bunch of reports prior to IOC-2 certification.

so when you say the CAG report says something it is ok but when the same cag report is quoted the person become fool?

don't mind but your language is very demeaning and not just to me i have seen the same to others too. there is always a proper way to speak in a civilised manner.

when the report is flawed as per you then stop blaming IAF people like you ignore the fact what HAL does its a organization which needs major shuffling and a competition to bring them on their toes.

All the points reported by CAG were all cleared including state of the art DRFM based Ew suit in PV-1. And none of the IAF fighter has any internal EW suit inclusing mig-29 and SU-30 MKI, that doesnt make them inferior they all carry podded Ew suit just like tejas is doing, and it doesnt compromise their power.
Also no fighter in todays world has armor protection for pilots icluding typhoon, rafale, gripen.
Also al;l; braking issues metioned in the report were cleared.

And even the 1 ton overweight claim is now being remedied by HAL on tejas mk1 A design.

When is it flying in the sky? they said they will try to reduce they did not delivered yet... and then people say people who don't know are fools.

And more than 200 gripen C/Ds flying now have the same tejas mk1's 6.5 ton emoty weight with 80 Kn engine(84 kn for tejas mk1) and they are all doing fine. So 6.5 ton empty weight for a 84 kn eninge fighter is no albatross around the neck, in fact the thrust to weight raio is much better than that of mirage-2000, J-10, and all versions of migs except mig-29.

ohh so u mean tejas is better than j-10 gripen etc.. ?

don't you think there is something called design that helps a jet perform better even with low thrust to weight ratio.

even with low thrust rafale perform better and do not need more thrust.

there is a famous word canard that gripen got .. to help in lift


when you say tejas doesn't have ew suite but then neither did sukhoi..

when you say its AOA is less can pull only 6g but still it is good enough

when you say its radar will be better than elta 2052 in next two years

all these statements make one sense and that is tejas lacks ew suite but do not have the advantage than sukhoi got it is not best but just good enough

and the third statement means a false dream as it is known to everyone its not going to as good as elta 2052.

so please open your eyes and give constructive support to program not pamper it for no reason.

 

[Kharavela]

I do not understand IAF bashing please let me know who asked for a indigenous fighter jet ?

The only fault with IAF is they want best to beat the best out there. we must understand to win any war we will require a complete air dominance that can be achieved only if we outmatch in number and quality both as its not going to be video game played back home.

IAF waited for sitaara for ages so that money can be saved and support indigenous stuff but repeated failure of hal meant iaf training program is affected drastically with second stage training taking place on kiran. please understand hal is not able to deliver nor ada/drdo on time.

It is again proved that "Half learning is dangerous".
Dear @3The Crossbow, please listen to or read what Admiral Arun Prakash has said in Vayu-StratPost Air Power Roundtable II. http://www.stratpost.com/video-vayu-stratpost-air-power-roundtable-ii
You may understand what IAF has done to indigenous aircraft programs starting from HF-24 Marut to LCA-Tejas.

 

[3The Crossbow]

One more brainless loudspeaker => @3The Crossbow

Do you even understand anything regarding Tejas ?? Before announcing your empty brain in this thread, read all the posts of http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/ada-lca-tejas-iv.43717/
and more particularly by @ersakthivel to understand the LCA-Tejas timeline & achievements.

about the time here it is

in 1983 budge was released to establish the organization as ersakthivel stated ..

then in 87 work started on design and in 1990 design was freezed ? right

now by any logic when you start a design phase the work on jet is started now we can say due to economic difficulty money was released in 1993 for prototype but then project did started in 1987

ersakthivel gave contradictory statement that in 1993 money was released and then 1992 i think he needs to first make sure when he wants the money to be released.

anyhow doesn't matter but the timeline is 28 years now. i do not have any issue with time anyhow but then i believe if you cannot deliver on time let the customer know about it so they plan accordingly.

i have been reading abt tejas much before the forum link you gave came into existence and even went to bangalore just so that i can see tejas offcourse goa was also there on plan.

and speak politely no one is less patriotic than you but patriotism should reflect your nation and your learning.

i am not saying i know everything and at the same time i am always open to discussion but not blind facts.

 

[3The Crossbow]

It is again proved that "Half learning is dangerous".
Dear @3The Crossbow, please listen to or read what Admiral Arun Prakash has said in Vayu-StratPost Air Power Roundtable II. http://www.stratpost.com/video-vayu-stratpost-air-power-roundtable-ii
You may understand what IAF has done to indigenous aircraft programs starting from HF-24 Marut to LCA-Tejas.

Bro where it is mentioned that IAF did harm to Tejas?

The jet is criticised by IAF as it is not able to fulfill its wishes and i blame UPA to a great extent for that along with DRDO and HAL

I am completely against Rafale as we will be paying our hand and leg for it.

but the fact remains we will have to wait for tejas mk2 till 2022 which will be equivalent to mirage 2000 if not better.
its induction in airforce if everything goes well will be completed by ?? any guess

we are able to produce required tech for tejas and it does boast of lots of good stuff then why not we have a twin engine jet to throw the french out.

when iaf was going for rafale we knew its going to be expensive then drdo should have come up with the solution to the gov and iaf saying they will deliver a twin engine jet too may be by 2020. here i blame UPA too which did lot of nautanki in releasing fund.

if tejas mk1 a is good enough then why not go for twin engine jet with bigger space for upgrades in future and more range and capabilty then tejas.

this is where i say both drdo and our political leadership lacks a punch.

we can always come up with a amca with available tech like russian t-50 and along the way keep developing fifth gen tech and refine the stealth .

just like ISRO 's moon mission they used the tried and tested tech to send mission to mars drdo needs the same approach which is missing.

 

[Yumdoot]

Seriously it is too filmy to say lca is going to take on f-35 or mig 21 is better than f-15.

Yaar self declaration of a win is usually done by Pakis. Are you one?

I do not understand IAF bashing please let me know who asked for a indigenous fighter jet ?

Dr. V. S. Arunachalam and Prof. Rodham Narasimha did. People like these converted Rajiv Gandhi. ACM Idrees H. Latif then tried to sell the idea to IAF but he was nearly ridiculed for supporting an indigenous fighter.

LCA was a secular project .

Bro where it is mentioned that IAF did harm to Tejas?

The last LCA project head, just retired, clearly said, as much as he could ever have.

 

[3The Crossbow]

Yaar self declaration of a win is usually done by Pakis. Are you one?

you are the one doing declaration that mig is better than f-15 and tejas might be better than f-35 read your comments

Mig-21 of 2nd generations have beaten F-15Cs of Gen 4+. What is to say LCAs won't repeat the feat against the vaunted F-35.

Dr. V. S. Arunachalam and Prof. Rodham Narasimha did. People like these converted Rajiv Gandhi. ACM Idrees H. Latif then tried to sell the idea to IAF but he was nearly ridiculed for supporting an indigenous fighter.

LCA was a secular project .

that is cool but then wonder why UPA did not supported a secular project krantikari..

IAF did supported the project in the beginning they lost interest mid btw , it is not like they don't want to support. but they want pie on both hands imported stuff from russia and west and indian.

I did read a post shared above by kharivel where the approach of iaf is criticised where they want best of the world without keeping cost in mind. also our overall policy is flawed as to achieve a decisive win one need dominant airpower which we lack even pakistan is doing good considering its small resource by opting for jf-17 as said numbers have their own quality.

defence ministry need to do some daat dapat and tell them aamdani athanni to kharcha rupaiya vaali approach will destroy you.

Indian army is going the same way by buying american howitzers which cost like hell. even bofors with more use of composite can do the same job.

they have become spoilt brat who want everything from the market not knowing the salary of their mom n dad
i.e finance minstry/defence ministry.

but then how can wwe blame them when we indians are spending much more in billions of dollar in improted stuff from china usa europe.

The last LCA project head, just retired, clearly said, as much as he could ever have.

why don't he tell about the ijt sitara no one can question how long iaf waited for it even happy to cancel buying imported stuff.

ok leave about tejas why there is so much delay and when it was identified it will require a higher thrust engine even in 2008 - 2010 still there is no mk2 protype in the sky. the deadline of mk2 project is getting extended like anything from 2017 to 18 - 19 then 21 - 22.... he should explain that too.

thats why i believe a dominant defence minister is needed to support indigenous project.

when iaf trust drdo hal they don't get result and when hal try to make something good iaf feel they will do the same so there is a huge distrust that can be removed by bringing people from iaf in ada and hal.

but ada doesn't feel like it. if you take e.g of america their airforce choose from different protypes made by different vendors which suit their need best. but we have absolute monopoly of ada and hal even to an extent that hal bosses are publicly opposing another line for tejas in private hands.

and my question is why not after all hal is a vendor too drdo is creating the product hal is doing production and if their is another in the nation happy to open one more production line and get into the business why such opposition.

their are many complaints even in the past about hal production quality why not create a infra in india where pvt companies can contribute.

with ambani / tata / L & T promoting indigenous product perhaps iaf and army too will look positively at them.

 

[Yumdoot]

you are the one doing declaration that mig is better than f-15 and tejas might be better than f-35 read your comments

I seriously doubt if I declared anything. I am begininng to doubt if you even understand what a declaration means. A declaration is a point beyond which you are not expected to argue and instead a fight or rather facts begin to speak for themselves.

For F-35 do we have to simply accept that it is the best.

At one time those who made F-35 used to regard F-15 as the best. Kill ratio of 782:1 and all that. People used to lap that up. Till some other people decided to show how that was all a bull.
How was that different from what is being done with F-35, today?

Or would you rather just have us accept that F-35 is the best and LCA cannot kill it?
If that is the case then, sorry boss, I have no intention of catching your disease.

IAF did supported the project in the beginning they lost interest mid btw , it is not like they don't want to support. but they want pie on both hands imported stuff from russia and west and indian.

Lost interest in mid way. WT_. Are you talking about a national project or an erection problem? Keep at it and I will expose the IAF honchos even more.

why don't he tell about the ijt sitara no one can question how long iaf waited for it even happy to cancel buying imported stuff.

What about Sitara. IAF and HAL sit down together and basis that an ASR is prepared and then after the 2 prototypes have begun flying the IAF honchos report that the plane is underpowered, in year 2005. How is the world to be blamed for the stupidity of IAF honchos. How many 3.5 ton empty weight aircarfts were flying with 14.4. KN engines, during those days? Then later on IAF leadership also discovers that that the plane is difficult to go into and recover from spins? This is the leadership that declares that they will make MMRCA and Pilatus level aircarfts basis the grand experience they gained in Base Repairs Depots and the inherently superior leadership qualities they possess. Then this still does not get resolved while the IAF leadership was busy sucking up to the UPA guys. Within 1 year of NDA the same HAL that has since long been advised by an Ex-IAF leader and the same HAL that could not set it right till UPA ended, yes sir the same HAL, says they will have the spin tests completed proto this september. What changed?

The bloody propaganda is so strong and so entrenched, that even the serious pro-pilots, down the line begin to believe the bull that IAF leadership regularly puts out. You search enough on the net you will find endorsement for the french engine (of which 2 power the Alfajet) for the Sitara also which weighs nearly the same as an Alfajet on a singular engine (except the Alfajets MTOW is much higher). I would not have been noteworthy but for that fact that this good word comes from a normal line pilot doing normal duty-shuty, no bloody leadership-weedership business.

Ok why did the IAF leadership decide to have its own inhouse R&D cadre? What was wrong with what they were doing earlier? Or do they need a 'committee' now ?

ok leave about tejas why there is so much delay and when it was identified it will require a higher thrust engine even in 2008 - 2010 still there is no mk2 protype in the sky. the deadline of mk2 project is getting extended like anything from 2017 to 18 - 19 then 21 - 22.... he should explain that too.

Why leave about Tejas Mk-1 and why to answer anything you demand on Mk-2. You think you can draw a bigger line? Is that it?

How can people who believe it is ok to try to kill national projects demand answers on Mk-2?
Next what we have to do some Aman-Ki-Asha with these people, kya?

Ok instead you tell us the net inputs that IAF leadership is giving for Mk-2? Abhi they have their team into ADA for LCA Mk-2. I am sure they must have given some revolutionary inputs about aircraft designs.

 

[Kharavela]

Bro where it is mentioned that IAF did harm to Tejas?

Here it is:
“I think its time for the Indian Air Force to take ownership of – they need a basic trainer, they need a jet trainer, they need a multi-role aircraft, they need a multi-role transport aircraft – its time they took ownership of all these projects and say, ‘Okay, let the Indian aerospace industry get on with it” If you start today, in thirty years you may have a few of these. If you never start, you’ll keep importing.” – Admiral (retd.) Arun Prakash

“If you keep criticizing and rejecting every darn thing that comes out of Bangalore, we’ll keep running in the same place. And we are doomed if we do that. Full stop.” – Admiral (retd.) Arun Prakash

 

[Kharavela]

The jet is criticised by IAF as it is not able to fulfill its wishes and i blame UPA to a great extent for that along with DRDO and HAL

Fighter jets are produced, improved & inducted in Blocks world over. Take the example of the most successful single engine fighter F-16. Block 52 is not same as Block 50.

Tell me - Has Rafale achieved FOC before induction to French Navy ?" Has Su-30 achieved / passed all critical tests before induction ? Each & every successful fighter worth its salt has been improved in blocks over a period of time. Then why IAF was adamant on Tejas completing all tests before induction ?

If you read enough on fighters, you must be aware of the fact that "No fighter has undergone as much tests as Tejas without a single accident to its credit". Had it not for #ModiSarkar, Tejas would have been dumped.

 

[Yumdoot]

Here it is:
“I think its time for the Indian Air Force to take ownership of – they need a basic trainer, they need a jet trainer, they need a multi-role aircraft, they need a multi-role transport aircraft – its time they took ownership of all these projects and say, ‘Okay, let the Indian aerospace industry get on with it” If you start today, in thirty years you may have a few of these. If you never start, you’ll keep importing.” – Admiral (retd.) Arun Prakash

“If you keep criticizing and rejecting every darn thing that comes out of Bangalore, we’ll keep running in the same place. And we are doomed if we do that. Full stop.” – Admiral (retd.) Arun Prakash

You gave these guys a respectable way out where they get a tongue lashing from one of their own kind. I was thinking about going more sadistic. Like this

www.dnaindia.com/india/report-iaf-plans-to-helm-hindustan-aeronautics-limited-grounded-1574190

In a written reply in the Lok Sabha last week minister of state for defence MM Pallam Raju had said that the “IAF has not demanded control over HAL, being its biggest customer” despite the air force expressing its wish to have its man to steer critical upcoming projects and maintain air superiority.

I think that was mid 2011. When they had already tried to kill the LCA once a few years back and failed and spend some years on Kejri-panthi. Still they did not get it. Today they talk like they are some kind of gurus.

 

[Kharavela]

about the time here it is

The time line of Tejas has been discussed umpteen times in various threads of this forum. Please go through them once again.

 

[Kharavela]

@3The Crossbow Here comes more & harder slaps from Admiral to IAF Chair Marshalls:
http://www.stratpost.com/video-vayu-stratpost-air-power-roundtable-v

Let me go back to 1961 when the navy started the Leander project. It was a great leap of faith but today the navy owns the warship design, the warship building. They want any kind of warship to project any capability they can get it. Hopefully, soon we’ll be the same in the submarine business. So I had thrown this gauntlet right at the beginning: Why has the air force not taken ownership of everything that they need – from a basic trainer to a fighter bomber to a transport aircraft.

We’ve sunk money into the FGFA – PAK FA – which is already – three prototypes are already flying – the Russians have built it for their air force and we’ve sunk three or four billion US dollars into it – for what reason I don’t understand. So it’s committed. At the highest level of the government. So why is the air force allowing this to happen. Instead of doing all that, back the LCA. It’s got problems, sure, but here the chief test pilot who’s written a paper and his last words are ‘It’s a beautiful aircraft. Why don’t we back it – why don’t we back the LCA Mk II, and once again let me give you the navy’s example. The navy sunk 900 crores into the LCA Navy – the air force has not given them a single rupee. So if the air force had done it right at the beginning perhaps this stage would not have arisen. If you had shown enough interest, if you had backed it – meddled with it and interfered at every stage and made it go. This is only a personal opinion that we should not allow the LCA to fail. We should go on to LCA Mk II – the AMCA should also be a lead on from the LCA and then this whole thing will proliferate – we’ll have a trainer, aero engines – the whole industry. – Admiral (retd) Arun Prakash
cc @Yumdoot