ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

3The Crossbow

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I seriously doubt if I declared anything. I am begininng to doubt if you even understand what a declaration means. A declaration is a point beyond which you are not expected to argue and instead a fight or rather facts begin to speak for themselves.

For F-35 do we have to simply accept that it is the best.

it is much a generation ahead of tejas.... and this is a declaration for sure...

Or would you rather just have us accept that F-35 is the best and LCA cannot kill it?
If that is the case then, sorry boss, I have no intention of catching your disease.

accepting the truth is not disease but living in a state of denial is..

this is way too much... if tejas is that good then dump rafale sukhoi fgfa why do we even need it :)



Lost interest in mid way. WT_. Are you talking about a national project or an erection problem? Keep at it and I will expose the IAF honchos even more.
it is not an erection problem but a nation security needs. the same attitude to depend on indigenous product no import resulted in army realising in 1999 they need more artillery power better rifles then insas iaf realising they cannot wait for tejas for long as mig are dying.

IAF always had a plan of getting their desire strength through tejas. but when it kept on delaying and the effectiveness of mirage made iaf realise they need more of such planes and tejas need to come up to this level or it will become a non effective jet in this era.

if they are pushing the requirement for making it better and letting it go through extensive testing as this was the first jet we made from scratch then there is nothing wrong to be extra cautious.

iaf lost many pilots in the wait that they will be able to get tejas or mig replacement but it never came.


Within 1 year of NDA the same HAL that has since long been advised by an Ex-IAF leader and the same HAL that could not set it right till UPA ended, yes sir the same HAL, says they will have the spin tests completed proto this september. What changed? :)
Nothing much yes present gov is supportive but when sitara is going to shine?

they tried and failed.. what you want iaf to keep waiting ... for trainers.

during testing only you will be able to identify the flaws and shortcoming simulation cannot do everything. they give requirements what they want and drdo said they can deliver but they failed.

why every project is dying like this?

from small construction of a building to jet everything in india get delayed and its a fact accept it or not.


Why leave about Tejas Mk-1 and why to answer anything you demand on Mk-2. You think you can draw a bigger line? Is that it?

How can people who believe it is ok to try to kill national projects demand answers on Mk-2?
Next what we have to do some Aman-Ki-Asha with these people, kya?

Ok instead you tell us the net inputs that IAF leadership is giving for Mk-2? Abhi they have their team into ADA for LCA Mk-2. I am sure they must have given some revolutionary inputs about aircraft designs. :devil:
they have mentioned the shortcomings of tejas mk1 and ada will try to meet them with tejas mk2. yes this is the input they give.

navy gave 900 crores what about IAF which is accepting the drdo demand to go for 80 mk1 as they cannot roll out mk2 on time as they promised earlier.

the problem one accept it or not is in the whole indian system which needs a major shake.

One can go on and paint that ada or hal is god and flawless if it makes some one happy.

But every project they have undertook is delayed.
 

3The Crossbow

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Fighter jets are produced, improved & inducted in Blocks world over. Take the example of the most successful single engine fighter F-16. Block 52 is not same as Block 50.

Tell me - Has Rafale achieved FOC before induction to French Navy ?" Has Su-30 achieved / passed all critical tests before induction ? Each & every successful fighter worth its salt has been improved in blocks over a period of time. Then why IAF was adamant on Tejas completing all tests before induction ?

If you read enough on fighters, you must be aware of the fact that "No fighter has undergone as much tests as Tejas without a single accident to its credit". Had it not for #ModiSarkar, Tejas would have been dumped.
please tell me the brand of your cell phone? where it is made? i mean from which part of india :)

In india people are busy buying apple and xiomi and tell iaf to buy from india.

On Rafale , they have experience and french airforce personnel were assured about the safety of the jet.

IAF lost its pilots in sitara crash and after that what you want from them just being blind eyed take a jet from hal and induct it no matter what ?

please read the article you posted

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/repor...industan-aeronautics-limited-grounded-1574190

"The last time an IAF officer was at the helm of affairs at the PSU was back in 1983-84 when Air Chief Marshal (then Air Marshal) LM Katre headed it. Two of HAL biggest projects LCA and ALH were conceptualized during his tenure as chairman of HAL."

See i told ya IAF people always wanted a tejas and they were the one supported the project from beginning.they want their people inside tejas to have better coordination and i say why not. they are the customer of HAL and ADA its good to have an insider from customer isn't?
 

NLD

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@3The Crossbow Here comes more & harder slaps from Admiral to IAF Chair Marshalls:
http://www.stratpost.com/video-vayu-stratpost-air-power-roundtable-v

Let me go back to 1961 when the navy started the Leander project. It was a great leap of faith but today the navy owns the warship design, the warship building. They want any kind of warship to project any capability they can get it. Hopefully, soon we’ll be the same in the submarine business. So I had thrown this gauntlet right at the beginning: Why has the air force not taken ownership of everything that they need – from a basic trainer to a fighter bomber to a transport aircraft.

We’ve sunk money into the FGFA – PAK FA – which is already – three prototypes are already flying – the Russians have built it for their air force and we’ve sunk three or four billion US dollars into it – for what reason I don’t understand. So it’s committed. At the highest level of the government. So why is the air force allowing this to happen. Instead of doing all that, back the LCA. It’s got problems, sure, but here the chief test pilot who’s written a paper and his last words are ‘It’s a beautiful aircraft. Why don’t we back it – why don’t we back the LCA Mk II, and once again let me give you the navy’s example. The navy sunk 900 crores into the LCA Navy – the air force has not given them a single rupee. So if the air force had done it right at the beginning perhaps this stage would not have arisen. If you had shown enough interest, if you had backed it – meddled with it and interfered at every stage and made it go. This is only a personal opinion that we should not allow the LCA to fail. We should go on to LCA Mk II – the AMCA should also be a lead on from the LCA and then this whole thing will proliferate – we’ll have a trainer, aero engines – the whole industry. – Admiral (retd) Arun Prakash
cc @Yumdoot
The point is great…
Even i had seen this video which is in Bharat-Rakshak(If u have posted a recent discussion then it has been said long back by some navy officer i have forgot his name).
Now coming to the point yes IAF has done mistake…
It didnt sit on indegenisation and went to foreign aircrafts…
Even after gnat both IAF & govt of India didnt backup the R&D sector of aircrafts which resulted in losing the gained experience…
Yes IAF has to backup tejas programme as like navy did decades ago, but the point is if IAF backs tejas where mk1 is yet to get foc and mk2 is yet to have its first flight…
IAF right now has pressure from all sides
May be the two rivalries(atleast one) will be getting next gen stealth a/c within a short time.
May be its own depleating a/c squadrons.
Still der is no exact time frame for tejasmk2.
How modi is reacting to each and every issue(i mean he is not doin any wrong but may be he is doing wrong before our rubber-stamp pm candidates) it may result in any situation…
Taking all these (even some more if we hv any) into consideration i think IAF will need planes according to its rivalry…
Backing our own men to do everything takes time, we have great example of navy which has took this long and now it has just started to export…
Navy has took this long to achieve…
If IAF goes as navy went it takes nearly another decade to become self-reliance.
I can say war-clouds are upon us and we cannot take chances at this time…
Yes IAF has done mistake…But just by critisizing it doesnt give u a good a/c.
I think it is good to stop giving lectures about what they should have done in past instead IAF should bring Kurt tang part-2. tejas and even AMCA should be completed by him/her.
As the programme of tejas and amca progress navy has to advice iaf so that they takeover the reigns of R&D and the production capability of a/c.
So that they also will become self-reliance like navy.
By criticism no one ll get anything…
Bygones are bygones leave it move forward.
 

3The Crossbow

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Here it is:
“I think its time for the Indian Air Force to take ownership of – they need a basic trainer, they need a jet trainer, they need a multi-role aircraft, they need a multi-role transport aircraft – its time they took ownership of all these projects and say, ‘Okay, let the Indian aerospace industry get on with it” If you start today, in thirty years you may have a few of these. If you never start, you’ll keep importing.” – Admiral (retd.) Arun Prakash

“If you keep criticizing and rejecting every darn thing that comes out of Bangalore, we’ll keep running in the same place. And we are doomed if we do that. Full stop.” – Admiral (retd.) Arun Prakash
i did read the complete conversation and it is indeed an eyeopener for iaf to understand that we cannot bring the best but it is in their own good to keep supporting indian industry.

for having an ownership of the project they will have to dedicate few people inside the hal and ada but is ada ready for accepting IAF people inside i doubt? this is a major blockade hal and ada should let IAF in to support the proejct .

admiral statement meant that we need to support the projects but then drdo/hal also need to tighten up their snail pace is not doing justice either.

this statement comes out telling the iaf brass that they is a limited budget and we cannot keep depending on imported stuff. it does not say they stalled tejas. they need it they know pretty well they cannot buy everything they want.

bhai sojaa ab 2 baj gaye.. nite :D
 

3The Crossbow

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The point is great…
Even i had seen this video which is in Bharat-Rakshak(If u have posted a recent discussion then it has been said long back by some navy officer i have forgot his name).
Now coming to the point yes IAF has done mistake…
It didnt sit on indegenisation and went to foreign aircrafts…
Even after gnat both IAF & govt of India didnt backup the R&D sector of aircrafts which resulted in losing the gained experience…
Yes IAF has to backup tejas programme as like navy did decades ago, but the point is if IAF backs tejas where mk1 is yet to get foc and mk2 is yet to have its first flight…
IAF right now has pressure from all sides
May be the two rivalries(atleast one) will be getting next gen stealth a/c within a short time.
May be its own depleating a/c squadrons.
Still der is no exact time frame for tejasmk2.
How modi is reacting to each and every issue(i mean he is not doin any wrong but may be he is doing wrong before our rubber-stamp pm candidates) it may result in any situation…
Taking all these (even some more if we hv any) into consideration i think IAF will need planes according to its rivalry…
Backing our own men to do everything takes time, we have great example of navy which has took this long and now it has just started to export…
Navy has took this long to achieve…
If IAF goes as navy went it takes nearly another decade to become self-reliance.
I can say war-clouds are upon us and we cannot take chances at this time…
Yes IAF has done mistake…But just by critisizing it doesnt give u a good a/c.
I think it is good to stop giving lectures about what they should have done in past instead IAF should bring Kurt tang part-2. tejas and even AMCA should be completed by him/her.
As the programme of tejas and amca progress navy has to advice iaf so that they takeover the reigns of R&D and the production capability of a/c.
So that they also will become self-reliance like navy.
By criticism no one ll get anything…
Bygones are bygones leave it move forward.

A very positive read must say...

though i am unsure whether buying rafale is a good move or not on the same side i think it was a diplomatic compulsion and face saving too as from almost a decade this contract was going on but the price is too much to handle even for these 36 jets.
 

Chinmoy

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The point is great…
Even i had seen this video which is in Bharat-Rakshak(If u have posted a recent discussion then it has been said long back by some navy officer i have forgot his name).
Now coming to the point yes IAF has done mistake…
It didnt sit on indegenisation and went to foreign aircrafts…
Even after gnat both IAF & govt of India didnt backup the R&D sector of aircrafts which resulted in losing the gained experience…
Yes IAF has to backup tejas programme as like navy did decades ago, but the point is if IAF backs tejas where mk1 is yet to get foc and mk2 is yet to have its first flight…
IAF right now has pressure from all sides
May be the two rivalries(atleast one) will be getting next gen stealth a/c within a short time.
May be its own depleating a/c squadrons.
Still der is no exact time frame for tejasmk2.
How modi is reacting to each and every issue(i mean he is not doin any wrong but may be he is doing wrong before our rubber-stamp pm candidates) it may result in any situation…
Taking all these (even some more if we hv any) into consideration i think IAF will need planes according to its rivalry…
Backing our own men to do everything takes time, we have great example of navy which has took this long and now it has just started to export…
Navy has took this long to achieve…
If IAF goes as navy went it takes nearly another decade to become self-reliance.
I can say war-clouds are upon us and we cannot take chances at this time…
Yes IAF has done mistake…But just by critisizing it doesnt give u a good a/c.
I think it is good to stop giving lectures about what they should have done in past instead IAF should bring Kurt tang part-2. tejas and even AMCA should be completed by him/her.
As the programme of tejas and amca progress navy has to advice iaf so that they takeover the reigns of R&D and the production capability of a/c.
So that they also will become self-reliance like navy.
By criticism no one ll get anything…
Bygones are bygones leave it move forward.
I do agree with you. We have already lost precious time on lobbying and relying on foreign tech. But now its time for us to standup and try to make as much as possible for the lost time. Its a good move on part of IAF to induct a squad of Tejas. We should involve these birds with other contemporary fighters like Mirage and Jaguar to evaluate it and tweak it more and more to our advantage. Its the time that IAF, HAL and others start working in tandem and cash should start flowing.
 

3The Crossbow

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I do agree with you. We have already lost precious time on lobbying and relying on foreign tech. But now its time for us to standup and try to make as much as possible for the lost time. Its a good move on part of IAF to induct a squad of Tejas. We should involve these birds with other contemporary fighters like Mirage and Jaguar to evaluate it and tweak it more and more to our advantage. Its the time that IAF, HAL and others start working in tandem and cash should start flowing.
Cash is huge they need to have some brain inside to understand that.

But more interesting is we spend a huge amount of money in missiles bombs ammunition etc imported by our nation. Just see Israel they may not have an aircraft but their avionics weapon system is world class.

we should separate ada from drdo and let it responsible for aircraft /uav and weapon system respectively while hal and one more company getting in for production to give stiff competition to hal.

we had the option of buying saab once and can be exercised today too by deep pocket ambanis and tatas even a 30 - 40 % stake and bringing it in india will help the pvt sector to develop.

one must have seen the news where indigo will buy 250 planes from airbus at an estimated cost of 26 - 27 billion dollar if hal and ADA can step up they could have that share and its a huge opportunity. there will be more such opportunity when the need to replace old civilian jets as well as fighter jets will come in coming decades.

Defence minister can come up with scheme like due to induction of tejas we saved millions of dollar so 1% dividend to iaf official similar for army.

when jet availability time is increased some dividend to hal or iaf maintenance team.

this works for pvt sector so why not for our defense sector :)
 

Chinmoy

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Cash is huge they need to have some brain inside to understand that.

But more interesting is we spend a huge amount of money in missiles bombs ammunition etc imported by our nation. Just see Israel they may not have an aircraft but their avionics weapon system is world class.

we should separate ada from drdo and let it responsible for aircraft /uav and weapon system respectively while hal and one more company getting in for production to give stiff competition to hal.

we had the option of buying saab once and can be exercised today too by deep pocket ambanis and tatas even a 30 - 40 % stake and bringing it in india will help the pvt sector to develop.

one must have seen the news where indigo will buy 250 planes from airbus at an estimated cost of 26 - 27 billion dollar if hal and ADA can step up they could have that share and its a huge opportunity. there will be more such opportunity when the need to replace old civilian jets as well as fighter jets will come in coming decades.

Defence minister can come up with scheme like due to induction of tejas we saved millions of dollar so 1% dividend to iaf official similar for army.

when jet availability time is increased some dividend to hal or iaf maintenance team.

this works for pvt sector so why not for our defense sector :)
I do really appreciate it. You need competition if you want to excel, but the thing is we have to change the mindset of users too. If you are hell bent on driving Hyundai and skeptical towards Maruti or a TATA, then would they care much into investing? (Hope I am able to get through here :)). Now dividend could be a well thought off plan, but along with it there is a need to sensitize the mass users.

Hope the news of Russia planning to sell SU-35's to Pak and doing ToT with China on some critical weapon system would serve as a wake up bell to our top brass who keeps on lobbying for Foreign Market. We simply cant keep on relying on Russia, US or EU for tech each and every time. You have to go for something own at one time or late. Its better that we start it ASAP.
 

3The Crossbow

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I do really appreciate it. You need competition if you want to excel, but the thing is we have to change the mindset of users too. If you are hell bent on driving Hyundai and skeptical towards Maruti or a TATA, then would they care much into investing? (Hope I am able to get through here :)). Now dividend could be a well thought off plan, but along with it there is a need to sensitize the mass users.

Hope the news of Russia planning to sell SU-35's to Pak and doing ToT with China on some critical weapon system would serve as a wake up bell to our top brass who keeps on lobbying for Foreign Market. We simply cant keep on relying on Russia, US or EU for tech each and every time. You have to go for something own at one time or late. Its better that we start it ASAP.
We need leaders who have brain to shake the system. Buying imported stuff is no wrong if it is strategic for example even British and Europe is going to buy from USA and they support their own jet too. But is rafale any strategic success?? Its not.

Also with sukhoi pakfa amca and tejas coming in why do we need one more system to complicate things for us.
Invest 30 billions in these platform and you can make them much more capable and in higher number then rafale. If something is saved invest in our education system which needs an annual investment of minimum 20 billions to bring things on track for us.

Issue with India is we completely rely on imports and the so called doctrine not putting all eggs on one basket is flawed for many reason. The increasing cost of multi platform means if right now we are shifting from Russia to west it is going to cost huge on our depleting foreign reserves.

We are pushing away time tested ally when we needed them they supported us but now their econmy is not in good condition with so many sanctions we should have been supportive to them specially where our interest can be justified too.

They have a huge oil reserves and if we make a pact with Russia and china to lay a oil / gas pipeline through china to meet our demand it will be huge benefit for both of us. If china create any hurdle in that it will be considered a direct attack on Russian interest and they will not take it kindly. lets but 30- 45 billions of oil from russia as eventually Arab nation are always going to support pak and so will Iran one day.

It is the right time with decrease in oil prices can help India fund its energy requirement through wind energy , solar energy and other renewable sources while at the same time helping strategic partners. We cannot rely on russia not to sell its equipment to others until we become a part fo its overall growth. Even they have ambition to prosper which is mutually beneficial.

Long delayed but rightly taken decision by ONGC to buy stakes in russian oil company is a good move.
Relaince , Adani and Tata should invest in Russia to meet energy demand not just of India but of Europe too It will make them dominant global player improve Indo Russian interaction trade and serve as a strategic advantage.

Then we can at the same time make things better with USA. Buying Rafale serves no strategic puepose nor 36 jets are going to provide us any super capability.

If we have to build relation with USA first build through civilian tech specially for energy and to reduce carbon foot print of India.
 

ersakthivel

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good enough? good enough is never enough when you are surrounded with highly unstable neighborhood

best or equal to best this is what we need in a war and this makes all the difference.



Please update yourself on the price of tejas and stop using Wikipedia and old sources.

It is over 180 crores now and is going to rise continuously as rupee weakens against dollar. close to 30 million and then if include dev cost much more expensive than this...
but that is not what we should be worried about if atleast we can increase the indigenous content more is it good to develop indian industry thats why iaf is supporting it and they did the same with hal sitara even jeopardizing the training of iaf pilots which might have resulted in migs crashes due to bad training.
"No use repeatedly comparing it to Ajeet, Gnat replacement."

no one is saying it is gnat but the experience with gnat let iaf look for small maneuverable and agile fighter. you must understand to argue you need to have a valid point not just circumventing the same line again and again.

not every one look for small fighter russia like big sukhoi's USA got f-15 f-18 f-22 f-35 these are pretty huge plane.
but iaf wanted a small one initially for dogfights though their priority is changed now due to higher thrust engine and want medium size jets along with high end sukhoi.



so when you say the CAG report says something it is ok but when the same cag report is quoted the person become fool?

don't mind but your language is very demeaning and not just to me i have seen the same to others too. there is always a proper way to speak in a civilised manner.

when the report is flawed as per you then stop blaming IAF people like you ignore the fact what HAL does its a organization which needs major shuffling and a competition to bring them on their toes.






When is it flying in the sky? they said they will try to reduce they did not delivered yet... and then people say people who don't know are fools.



ohh so u mean tejas is better than j-10 gripen etc.. ?

don't you think there is something called design that helps a jet perform better even with low thrust to weight ratio.

even with low thrust rafale perform better and do not need more thrust.

there is a famous word canard that gripen got .. to help in lift


when you say tejas doesn't have ew suite but then neither did sukhoi..

when you say its AOA is less can pull only 6g but still it is good enough

when you say its radar will be better than elta 2052 in next two years

all these statements make one sense and that is tejas lacks ew suite but do not have the advantage than sukhoi got it is not best but just good enough

and the third statement means a false dream as it is known to everyone its not going to as good as elta 2052.

so please open your eyes and give constructive support to program not pamper it for no reason.
don't you think there is something called design that helps a jet perform better even with low thrust to weight ratio.

even with low thrust rafale perform better and do not need more thrust.

there is a famous word canard that gripen got .. to help in lift
Your above comment made me laugh till tears were streaming down my eye. Please dont expose your ignorance by forwarding baseless argument.

Do you even know what is the half fuel+ empty weight thrust to weight ratio for both rafale and tejas mk1?

Canards and double delta of tejas do the same job .i.e vortex creation which delays the onset of stall by reattaching flow inducing vortex at high AOAs in high alpha flight regime.

http://www.nal.res.in/cfdsympo/cfdfullpaperfinal/Influence of Canopy shape on the supersonic drag of a generic Fighter Aircraft.pdf

See the vortex generation effect of the lesser swept delta wing at the root in one of the diagrams listed in the PDF.Canard also does the same job in gripen , typhoon,and rafale.

In the same way dropped canards on Su-35 didnot downgrade its performance vis a vis Su-30 MKI.

I really appreciate the time and effort you put into replying to me,
if only you use it to productively educate yourself about the tejas program you can learn a lot and make valuable criticism of tejas,
Right now you are indulging in no use , no holds barred blame game which is of use to no one around here.
As I dont have enough time to reply to your subjective presumptions void of any technical content , I wont reply to each and every point.

When IAF chief goes on record like, "No one in IAF has any doubts about tejas's fighting ability", it is good enough for me you and the entire nation.
From 1989 to 1993 GOI did not sanction any money to move to the actual designing of tejas is what I meant.
 
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ersakthivel

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We need leaders who have brain to shake the system. Buying imported stuff is no wrong if it is strategic for example even British and Europe is going to buy from USA and they support their own jet too. But is rafale any strategic success?? Its not.

Also with sukhoi pakfa amca and tejas coming in why do we need one more system to complicate things for us.
Invest 30 billions in these platform and you can make them much more capable and in higher number then rafale. If something is saved invest in our education system which needs an annual investment of minimum 20 billions to bring things on track for us.

Issue with India is we completely rely on imports and the so called doctrine not putting all eggs on one basket is flawed for many reason. The increasing cost of multi platform means if right now we are shifting from Russia to west it is going to cost huge on our depleting foreign reserves.

We are pushing away time tested ally when we needed them they supported us but now their econmy is not in good condition with so many sanctions we should have been supportive to them specially where our interest can be justified too.

They have a huge oil reserves and if we make a pact with Russia and china to lay a oil / gas pipeline through china to meet our demand it will be huge benefit for both of us. If china create any hurdle in that it will be considered a direct attack on Russian interest and they will not take it kindly. lets but 30- 45 billions of oil from russia as eventually Arab nation are always going to support pak and so will Iran one day.

It is the right time with decrease in oil prices can help India fund its energy requirement through wind energy , solar energy and other renewable sources while at the same time helping strategic partners. We cannot rely on russia not to sell its equipment to others until we become a part fo its overall growth. Even they have ambition to prosper which is mutually beneficial.

Long delayed but rightly taken decision by ONGC to buy stakes in russian oil company is a good move.
Relaince , Adani and Tata should invest in Russia to meet energy demand not just of India but of Europe too It will make them dominant global player improve Indo Russian interaction trade and serve as a strategic advantage.

Then we can at the same time make things better with USA. Buying Rafale serves no strategic puepose nor 36 jets are going to provide us any super capability.

If we have to build relation with USA first build through civilian tech specially for energy and to reduce carbon foot print of India.
We need posters who have some basic understanding about the stuff they post on !!!!

This is a technical thread about tejas. Post technical info here, not ONGC oilstake purchase and education system.Move to chit chat thread or open a new thread for it.

Got it?
 

Yumdoot

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@ersakthivel - The references in the pdf also mention "V4.8.2 of LCA AF Mk2".

We are looking at one of the earlier version of the LCA Mk-2 that was studied and the strange looking bubble canopy of LCA NP-2 may have been the result of these studies.

The bubble is there on the LCA Navy NP-2 also but the LCA Navy NP-2 additionally has LEVCONS and if we compare the LEVCON position on NP-2 and the Fig. 8 (top view - modified fighter) than it is obvious the studied changes are to the Airforce version of the LCA. Further Fig. 6 also confirms that the length of both the options is the same.

Now we have been told in the ADA Brochure 2015 that LCA Mk-2 will be about 0.5 meter lengthier and the NLCA Mk-2 will be nearly 1.25 meters lengthier.

But this bubble canopy is now the fixed feature of all further versions.

The conclusions:
The Final shape gives a supersonic drag benefit of approximately 12 counts. The increase in canopy surface area has a marginal increase in skin friction drag. However improvement in the local flow gradients in the subsonic regime reduces pressure drag in the modified canopy configuration and compensates for the increase in skin friction. Therefore the reduction in subsonic drag is marginal in the modified canopy configuration. The structural changes required to cater for the aerodynamic loads of the new canopy accounts for approximately 11kg. The cross section area of the base canopy and the modified canopy shown in Fig.7 indicates the additional space available behind the pilot. Approximately 50kg of additional fuel was estimated to be accommodated by rearranging the inboards of the aircraft in the additional space created by the increase in the canopy profile.
<snip>
The present supersonic wave drag reduction due to modified canopy has a huge impact on the performance of the aircraft. The wave drag reduction in the modified fighter is approximately 6% in supersonic region as compared to the base configuration which translates to a 20% improvement in transonic accelerations. Reduction in wave drag has improved the maximum level speeds of the modified fighter by 2%.
<snip>
The final modified canopy gave 6% reduction in supersonic wave drag which translated to 20% improvement in transonic accelerations and 2% improvement in maximum level speeds. The pitching stability characteristics have improved in the modified fighter which results in less trim drag. The directional stability characteristics of the modified configuration has deteriorated resulting in lower cross over alpha which is proposed to be overcome by closed loop feedback control.
Very little and entirely manageable downsides, on directional stability. So we can breath easy Mk-2 in all likelihood is going to meet all operational promises made. 20% improvement in transonic acceleration on account of aerodynamic improvements with the extra fuel should mitigate fears about the anticipated higher fuel consumption in Mk-2.

And Indian Navy has already ported these improvements to its own version, which is why their Mk-2 will be longer and nearly a Mirage-2000 kind of length. Their Mk-2 version should carry even more fuel and the combat range related fears too can be mitigated.

In the same way dropped canards on Su-35 didnot downgrade its performance vis a vis Su-30 MKI.
So you liken the canard on the same plane as the main wing as a split Levcon kind of arrangement.
 

sabari

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it is much a generation ahead of tejas.... and this is a declaration for sure...

Or would you rather just have us accept that F-35 is the best and LCA cannot kill it?
If that is the case then, sorry boss, I have no intention of catching your disease.

accepting the truth is not disease but living in a state of denial is..

this is way too much... if tejas is that good then dump rafale sukhoi fgfa why do we even need

it is not an erection problem but a nation security needs. the same attitude to depend on indigenous product no import resulted in army realising in 1999 they need more artillery power better rifles then insas iaf realising they cannot wait for tejas for long as mig are dying.

IAF always had a plan of getting their desire strength through tejas. but when it kept on delaying and the effectiveness of mirage made iaf realise they need more of such planes and tejas need to come up to this level or it will become a non effective jet in this era.

if they are pushing the requirement for making it better and letting it go through extensive testing as this was the first jet we made from scratch then there is nothing wrong to be extra cautious.

iaf lost many pilots in the wait that they will be able to get tejas or mig replacement but it never came.




Nothing much yes present gov is supportive but when sitara is going to shine?

they tried and failed.. what you want iaf to keep waiting ... for trainers.

during testing only you will be able to identify the flaws and shortcoming simulation cannot do everything. they give requirements what they want and drdo said they can deliver but they failed.

why every project is dying like this?

from small construction of a building to jet everything in india get delayed and its a fact accept it or not.




they have mentioned the shortcomings of tejas mk1 and ada will try to meet them with tejas mk2. yes this is the input they give.

navy gave 900 crores what about IAF which is accepting the drdo demand to go for 80 mk1 as they cannot roll out mk2 on time as they promised earlier.

the problem one accept it or not is in the whole indian system which needs a major shake.

One can go on and paint that ada or hal is god and flawless if it makes some one happy.

But every project they have undertook is delayed.
Sir team involved in desine development sitara trainer should be sacked for there in ability to desine even a trainer aircraft because trainer are not going to carry heavy pay load are going be air superriarity fighter.they are just the plain performance basic menuver with limited pay load
 
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3The Crossbow

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Your above comment made me laugh till tears were streaming down my eye. Please dont expose your ignorance by forwarding baseless argument.

Do you even know what is the half fuel+ empty weight thrust to weight ratio for both rafale and tejas mk1?

Canards and double delta of tejas do the same job .i.e vortex creation which delays the onset of stall by reattaching flow inducing vortex at high AOAs in high alpha flight regime.

http://www.nal.res.in/cfdsympo/cfdfullpaperfinal/Influence of Canopy shape on the supersonic drag of a generic Fighter Aircraft.pdf

See the vortex generation effect of the lesser swept delta wing at the root in one of the diagrams listed in the PDF.Canard also does the same job in gripen , typhoon,and rafale.

In the same way dropped canards on Su-35 didnot downgrade its performance vis a vis Su-30 MKI.

I really appreciate the time and effort you put into replying to me,
if only you use it to productively educate yourself about the tejas program you can learn a lot and make valuable criticism of tejas,
Right now you are indulging in no use , no holds barred blame game which is of use to no one around here.
As I dont have enough time to reply to your subjective presumptions void of any technical content , I wont reply to each and every point.

When IAF chief goes on record like, "No one in IAF has any doubts about tejas's fighting ability", it is good enough for me you and the entire nation.
From 1989 to 1993 GOI did not sanction any money to move to the actual designing of tejas is what I meant.
Your above comment made me laugh till tears were streaming down my eye. Please dont expose your ignorance by forwarding baseless argument.

Do you even know what is the half fuel+ empty weight thrust to weight ratio for both rafale and tejas mk1?

Canards and double delta of tejas do the same job .i.e vortex creation which delays the onset of stall by reattaching flow inducing vortex at high AOAs in high alpha flight regime.

http://www.nal.res.in/cfdsympo/cfdfullpaperfinal/Influence of Canopy shape on the supersonic drag of a generic Fighter Aircraft.pdf

See the vortex generation effect of the lesser swept delta wing at the root in one of the diagrams listed in the PDF.Canard also does the same job in gripen , typhoon,and rafale.

In the same way dropped canards on Su-35 didnot downgrade its performance vis a vis Su-30 MKI.

I really appreciate the time and effort you put into replying to me,
if only you use it to productively educate yourself about the tejas program you can learn a lot and make valuable criticism of tejas,
Right now you are indulging in no use , no holds barred blame game which is of use to no one around here.
As I dont have enough time to reply to your subjective presumptions void of any technical content , I wont reply to each and every point.

When IAF chief goes on record like, "No one in IAF has any doubts about tejas's fighting ability", it is good enough for me you and the entire nation.
From 1989 to 1993 GOI did not sanction any money to move to the actual designing of tejas is what I meant.
The double delta wing if are able to do the same job then why does euro jets sports canards specially since french are mastering using delta wings since decades.

You
Your above comment made me laugh till tears were streaming down my eye. Please dont expose your ignorance by forwarding baseless argument.

Do you even know what is the half fuel+ empty weight thrust to weight ratio for both rafale and tejas mk1?

Canards and double delta of tejas do the same job .i.e vortex creation which delays the onset of stall by reattaching flow inducing vortex at high AOAs in high alpha flight regime.

http://www.nal.res.in/cfdsympo/cfdfullpaperfinal/Influence of Canopy shape on the supersonic drag of a generic Fighter Aircraft.pdf

See the vortex generation effect of the lesser swept delta wing at the root in one of the diagrams listed in the PDF.Canard also does the same job in gripen , typhoon,and rafale.

In the same way dropped canards on Su-35 didnot downgrade its performance vis a vis Su-30 MKI.

I really appreciate the time and effort you put into replying to me,
if only you use it to productively educate yourself about the tejas program you can learn a lot and make valuable criticism of tejas,
Right now you are indulging in no use , no holds barred blame game which is of use to no one around here.
As I dont have enough time to reply to your subjective presumptions void of any technical content , I wont reply to each and every point.

When IAF chief goes on record like, "No one in IAF has any doubts about tejas's fighting ability", it is good enough for me you and the entire nation.
From 1989 to 1993 GOI did not sanction any money to move to the actual designing of tejas is what I meant.
You are a big black hole of contradictions and i can not stop my feeling while i smile on each comment you make...

If as you say double delta wing are able to do the job of canards then why do not eurojets drop their canards?

Do you even know then study of canards for tejas was also done but since it was not able to help much due to the small size and design of tejas the idea was dropped.

you need to read before blabbering use of canards help in increasing the lift or provide stability depending on the position (canards placed in typhoon and rafale gives a perfect example how canard can be used) and thus the same work can be done by the engines providing low thrust.

Levcons are also used to do the same. Naval variant will sport fixed levcons (moving levcons is major engineering challenge)

Have you ever seen the plane delta wing of tejas that is due to the simple fact we are not in a stage to produce some technical marvel and tried and tested simple was used to design this.

Su 35 sports a higher thrust engine as well as refined aerodynamics performance compared to sukhoi - 30.

Even mig 29/35 don't sport canards and are an absolute treat to watch when it comes to dogfighting or aeroshow.

do you even understand why?? or happy with half baked knowledge as rightly said "thotha chana baaje ghana"

Tejas need more thrust and thinking that kaveri 80 kn would be enough is a big crap only a few can bring out of their mouth and it does need GE 414 engine for decent performance.

when iaf chief says he has full faith in fighting abilities of tejas you are happy.

when same IAF says that tejas mk1 is not the one we want you start questioning him.

when the same iaf chief ask for more potent platform like rafale you raise doubts and bring long articles hoe tejas is enough and we do not need rafale.

First decide who you think is a reliable source and who is not?

From 1989 to 1993?

The design was freezed in 1990 so obviously the fund wll be released when the design is freezed and their is something to work on. the payments were released in 1993 as you say then 91 and 92 and two make you happy one more year added .

but does this take away the fact that the tejas project started in 1987?

or if you think design stage should not be included in the aircraft prpject duration when counting for tejas but when for international platform we should do that?

By your logic can you please care to explain the time for gripen project?


I understand you may be one DRDO or HAL planted source to their dirty job or a fan boy gone mad. dont mind but keep it up!
 

Yumdoot

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These things have been discussed. To repeat the crux without getting the two of you, into a blue-on-blue.

The double delta wing if are able to do the same job then why does euro jets sports canards specially since french are mastering using delta wings since decades.
Because none of the eurojets are double deltas (much less a compound double deltas) unlike LCA.

If as you say double delta wing are able to do the job of canards then why do not eurojets drop their canards?
Again they cannot drop canards - Because none of the eurojets are double deltas (much less a compound double deltas) unlike LCA.

Do you even know then study of canards for tejas was also done but since it was not able to help much due to the small size and design of tejas the idea was dropped.
Tejas dropped canards because it was deemed not useful enough, considering the smaller volume it had and the superior FBW it had. Not because of size alone. Which was later sufficiently demonstrated. If Tejas could not do its duty particularly because it did not have a canard then the obvious solution would have been to put the canards on it. Which is not being done even in the later versions. Ergo, canards were never needed, it was just a motivated propaganda that a canard was needed.

Today nearly nobody does canard unless they are facing unique challenges and a canard is a majboori for them. Soon with the F-414 engine even the Mk-2 will meet all requirements without the use of canards.


you need to read before blabbering use of canards help in increasing the lift or provide stability depending on the position (canards placed in typhoon and rafale gives a perfect example how canard can be used) and thus the same work can be done by the engines providing low thrust.
What is your view on the placement of canards of SU30MKI.

Levcons are also used to do the same. Naval variant will sport fixed levcons (moving levcons is major engineering challenge)
NLCA has to take off with similar loads as IAF version but in less than half the distance and invariably in hot conditions. NLCA will require extra control surfaces. And that is why the NLCA Mk-2 is bigger than LCA Mk-2, to provide for extras.

LCA Mk-1 and LCA Mk-2 will not need these LEVCONs because of much greater run that is available at even the Advanced Landing Grounds and consequently much relaxed operating conditions.

Have you ever seen the plane delta wing of tejas that is due to the simple fact we are not in a stage to produce some technical marvel and tried and tested simple was used to design this.
Tailless compound, double-delta, wings, merged to the upper body, is what LCA has.

Tejas need more thrust and thinking that kaveri 80 kn would be enough is a big crap only a few can bring out of their mouth and it does need GE 414 engine for decent performance.
No Tejas does not 'need' more thrust. If the IAF is willing to drop the benefit of larger wings and bigger Radome (which they cannot), ADA can have the LCA modified to something like a Gripen and IAF can feel good about having an MMRCA.


when iaf chief says he has full faith in fighting abilities of tejas you are happy.

when same IAF says that tejas mk1 is not the one we want you start questioning him.
The Gods had to extract that statement after 10 years of bile inducing gastritis from the IAF chief.

And if IAF simply must have the F-414 (which BTW was an afterthought) then should we presume that NLCA Mk-2 would not be good enough considering the perennially higher temperatures and shorter runways they will be operating from. Do you have a view on this comparative?

when the same iaf chief ask for more potent platform like rafale you raise doubts and bring long articles hoe tejas is enough and we do not need rafale.

First decide who you think is a reliable source and who is not?
ADA and the long list of test pilots that are available to ADA are the only one source reliable enough about LCA. IAF is not.

As for Rafale, IAF learnt even the so called life cycle costing from its Vendors. This is an admission and not an accusation. So you can guess what they learnt and what is the decision they made.

As for Rafale's potency, you can check out what happened to similarly potent Eurofighter in Ex. Indradhanush 2015. Remember Rafale won over Eurofighter in the MMRCA competition not based on technicals but based on L-1 lowest life cycle costing. Please post us about what you think about that.


but does this take away the fact that the tejas project started in 1987?
Tejas was sought to be sunk in internal meetings of IAF in 1982 itself. This is an admission and not an accusation. So Tejas start date can be take as 1982. IAF admits again that till 2007 they did not have anybody/anyteam in IAF to support the LCA Mk-1 effort. ADA boss who retired recently also mentions that Tejas was sought to be killed in 2007 period.

Notice no accusations. Only admissions.

As a matter of rule we are only allowed to import stuff that we are already well on our way to make or import from a competitor. Otherwise everything that we cannot yet make is sanctioned.

I understand you may be one DRDO or HAL planted source to their dirty job or a fan boy gone mad. dont mind but keep it up!
Fan boy gone mad is more like it :p. So am I
 
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R.parida

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Fan boy gone mad is more like it :p. So am I

Just loved it...
Dont compare gripen timeline with Tejas :clock:... Tejas the project itself dragged by buercrats, import lobbist and IAF to dump the project ... still it survive the tough times.

I can say Tejas the unwanted bird of IAF but loved by mad guys like us because we started crawling, standing and walking by doing Tejas project and will certainly start running with MKi (foc) , MKii and AMCA.

When the project conceived, India did not have the technical wherewithal to develop and build 4th generation aircraft; it also had not even built a 3rd-generation fighter aircraft on its own. As a result, it went through a long-drawn development process, starting almost from scratch. Also the IAF was never clear what it wants from Tejas.
 

ersakthivel

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The double delta wing if are able to do the same job then why does euro jets sports canards specially since french are mastering using delta wings since decades.

You


You are a big black hole of contradictions and i can not stop my feeling while i smile on each comment you make...

If as you say double delta wing are able to do the job of canards then why do not eurojets drop their canards?

Do you even know then study of canards for tejas was also done but since it was not able to help much due to the small size and design of tejas the idea was dropped.

you need to read before blabbering use of canards help in increasing the lift or provide stability depending on the position (canards placed in typhoon and rafale gives a perfect example how canard can be used) and thus the same work can be done by the engines providing low thrust.

Levcons are also used to do the same. Naval variant will sport fixed levcons (moving levcons is major engineering challenge)

Have you ever seen the plane delta wing of tejas that is due to the simple fact we are not in a stage to produce some technical marvel and tried and tested simple was used to design this.

Su 35 sports a higher thrust engine as well as refined aerodynamics performance compared to sukhoi - 30.

Even mig 29/35 don't sport canards and are an absolute treat to watch when it comes to dogfighting or aeroshow.

do you even understand why?? or happy with half baked knowledge as rightly said "thotha chana baaje ghana"

Tejas need more thrust and thinking that kaveri 80 kn would be enough is a big crap only a few can bring out of their mouth and it does need GE 414 engine for decent performance.

when iaf chief says he has full faith in fighting abilities of tejas you are happy.

when same IAF says that tejas mk1 is not the one we want you start questioning him.

when the same iaf chief ask for more potent platform like rafale you raise doubts and bring long articles hoe tejas is enough and we do not need rafale.

First decide who you think is a reliable source and who is not?

From 1989 to 1993?

The design was freezed in 1990 so obviously the fund wll be released when the design is freezed and their is something to work on. the payments were released in 1993 as you say then 91 and 92 and two make you happy one more year added .

but does this take away the fact that the tejas project started in 1987?

or if you think design stage should not be included in the aircraft prpject duration when counting for tejas but when for international platform we should do that?

By your logic can you please care to explain the time for gripen project?


I understand you may be one DRDO or HAL planted source to their dirty job or a fan boy gone mad. dont mind but keep it up!
Su 35 sports a higher thrust engine as well as refined aerodynamics performance compared to sukhoi - 30.

having canards will further improve the performance, So why did they drop it in Su-35 was my question , which you are evading by hiding behind the above statement!!!

Refined aerodynamic performance can also be had with double delta.

SInce you have confirmed your inability about learning anything useful even after being shown a CFD on the efficiency of vortex generation by tejas double delta,

I also assume that you will similarly be "unable " to grasp the basic fact that the primary job of canards are vortex generation , whether they are employed by french masters or sweedish masters,

All programs from Europe i.e gripen, typhoon, and rafale were the successors of of the cancelled BAE fighter project which also had canard lay out , so they were all similar,

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2013/02/16/saab-gripen-analysis/

Formal proposals were requested in 1981, and JAS IG submitted their proposal on 1 June 1981. After evaluation of proposals, it was decided to go forward with JAS proposal. On 30 June 1982, a fixed-price proposal was signed between the FMV and IG JAS for 5 prototypes and 30 JAS-39A aircraft. Following month, name Gripen was selected for the aircraft.

On 4 March 1993, first production Gripen (JAS-39-101) made its flight, with second production aircraft delivered for service testing on 8 June 1993. It soon crashed during air display over Stockholm due to the pilot loosing control and having to eject. Following the accident, further flight testing was suspended until FCS was revised. Revisions included changes to canard deflection angles in combat mode. Testing continued on 29 December 1993.

The above underlined passage will teach you something about the limitations of canard design which is well concealed by the advocates of "canards are the next best thing in aeronautics after wright brothers"!!!!

One JAS-39A was converted from production line to serve as prototype for twin-seated trainer, JAS-39B. It features 65,5 cm fuselage stretch, and rear cockpit that is, except for lack of HUD, identical to the front one.



On 12 June 1995, SAAB and British Aerospace announced joint development of export variant. In 2001, joint venture was registered in Sweden as Gripen International.

Primary purpose of close-coupled canards is not to act as control surface, but to increase lift at high angles of attack, where aircraft relies mostly on vortices to provide lift, by strengthening vortices generated by the wing and preventing their breakdown. Size and angle of Gripen’s canards are used to achieve as good as possible separation – vertical and horizontal – between canard’s tip and wing’s lifting surface, thus allowing for maximum vortex lift during high-alpha maneuvers – improvement of lift due to the close coupled configuration could be up to 50%, when compared to lift produced by surfaces in isolation.



The underlined passage once again shows that the "primary aim of canards is vortex generation and not to act as control surface."

In the same way the primary job of double delta is also vortex generation leading to ," increased lift at high angles of attack, where aircraft relies mostly on vortices to provide lift, by strengthening vortices generated by the wing and preventing their breakdown."



But as I have seen from my previous interactions with you, you will pretend to understand nothing I posted here.

And some thing about time lines,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen

"
In 1979, the government began a study calling for a versatile platform capable of "JAS", standing for Jakt (air-to-air), Attack (air-to-surface), and Spaning (reconnaissance), indicating a multirole, or swingrole, fighter aircraft that can fulfill multiple roles during the same mission.[12] Several Saab designs were reviewed, the most promising being "Project 2105" (redesignated "Project 2108" and, later, "Project 2110"), recommended to the government by the Defence Materiel Administration (Försvarets Materielverk, or FMV).[12] In 1980, Industrigruppen JAS (IG JAS, "JAS Industry Group") was established as a joint venture by Saab-Scania, LM Ericsson, Svenska Radioaktiebolaget, Volvo Flygmotor andFörsvarets Fabriksverk, the industrial arm of the Swedish armed forces.[14]

The first Gripen was rolled out on 26 April 1987, marking Saab's 50th anniversary.[23] Originally planned to fly in 1987,[16] the first flight was delayed by 18 months due to issues with the flight control system. On 9 December 1988, the first prototype (serial number 39-1) took its 51-minute maiden flight with pilot Stig Holmström at the controls.[15][24] During the test programme, concern surfaced about the aircraft's avionics, specifically the fly-by-wire flight control system (FCS), and the relaxed stability design. On 2 February 1989, this issue led to the crash of the prototype during an attempted landing at Linköping; the test pilot Lars Rådeström walked away with a broken elbow. The cause of the crash was identified as pilot-induced oscillation, caused by problems with the FCS's pitch-control routine.[15][25][26]

In response to the crash Saab and US firm Calspan introduced software modifications to the aircraft. A modified Lockheed NT-33A was used to test these improvements, which allowed flight testing to resume 15 months after the accident. On 8 August 1993, production aircraft 39102 was destroyed in an accident during an aerial display in Stockholm. Test pilot Rådeström lost control of the aircraft during a roll at low altitude when the aircraft stalled, forcing him to eject. Saab later found the problem to be high amplification of the pilot's quick and significant stick command inputs. The ensuing investigation and flaw correction delayed test flying by several months, resuming in December 1993.[15]

The first order included an option for another 110,
which was exercised in June 1992. Batch II consisted of 96 one-seat JAS 39As and 14 two-seat JAS 39Bs.[27][28] The JAS 39B variant is 66 cm (26 in) longer than the JAS 39A to accommodate a second seat, which also necessitated the deletion of the cannon and a reduced internal fuel capacity.[29] By April 1994, five prototypes and two series-production Gripens had been completed; but a beyond-visual-range missile (BVR) had not yet been selected.[30] A third batch was ordered in June 1997, composed of 50 upgraded single-seat JAS 39Cs and 14 JAS 39D two-seaters,[29] known as 'Turbo Gripen', with NATO compatibility for exports.[31] Batch III aircraft, delivered between 2002 and 2008, possess more powerful and updated avionics, in-flight refuelling capability via retractable probes on the aircraft's starboard side, and an on-board oxygen-generating system for longer missions.[32] In-flight refueling was tested via a specially equipped prototype (39‐4) used in successful trials with a Royal Air Force VC10 in 1998.[29]
"

WHile the testing after a couple of crippling craskes resumed only in 1993, simultaneously the order for 100 gripens were given!!! No IOC,1,2 ,3,,,,n and FOC BS that is being perpetuated on tejas!!!!

Did the sweedish airforce chief say, No we dont need this ever crashing gripen As, we only need the NATO compatible Gripen C( which was developed in 2007 )? No, Why/ because he is no fool like some of the we dont want mk1 and mk2 is what we want chanters here, he knows perfectly well that all aircrafts mature with induction and promptly an order for 100 gripens were placed in 1993 itself when testing resumes in december 1993 after resolving crash issues.

The Gripen Program was initiated in 1980.

orders fro 100 gripens given even while testing was resumed after couple of crashes,

Till 1994 no BVR was selected, that means when the order was given 15 years after program started they did not even select a BVR.

In flight refuelling capacity tested only in 1998.

SO from 1980 to 1998 it is 18 years even with 100 percent dedicated international co operation with no gaps in funding in between.

For tejas 1983 program starts, 1989 project definition over, till 1993 no funding , four year gap, By 2013 IOC 2 is achieved and it is about to complete FOC in 2016. may look like 33 years, but delete 4 years for funding gap it becomes 29 years, delete four years for sanction impact and FSED phase-2 it becomes 25 years,

SO what is the fuss on time lines, Gripen took 19 years tejas took 25 years, But for nNATO compatiablity gripen with full EW suit it took time till 2008. i.e close to the same 25 years taken by tejas, which has an external EW pod, refuelling probe and about to fire Derby BVR. and even had a successful demo of DRFM based fully internal EW suit on PV-1 recently, with naval, trainer version also up and running.

SAAB is already an established major with full international co operation, while ADA-HAL were designing their first 4.5th gen fighter.

SO dont post stuff about which you dont even have the faintest idea about.
 
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ersakthivel

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These things have been discussed. To repeat the crux without getting the two of you, into a blue-on-blue.



Because none of the eurojets are double deltas (much less a compound double deltas) unlike LCA.



Again they cannot drop canards - Because none of the eurojets are double deltas (much less a compound double deltas) unlike LCA.



Tejas dropped canards because it was deemed not useful enough, considering the smaller volume it had and the superior FBW it had. Not because of size alone. Which was later sufficiently demonstrated. If Tejas could not do its duty particularly because it did not have a canard then the obvious solution would have been to put the canards on it. Which is not being done even in the later versions. Ergo, canards were never needed, it was just a motivated propaganda that a canard was needed.

Today nearly nobody does canard unless they are facing unique challenges and a canard is a majboori for them. Soon with the F-414 engine even the Mk-2 will meet all requirements without the use of canards.




What is your view on the placement of canards of SU30MKI.



NLCA has to take off with similar loads as IAF version but in less than half the distance and invariably in hot conditions. NLCA will require extra control surfaces. And that is why the NLCA Mk-2 is bigger than LCA Mk-2, to provide for extras.

LCA Mk-1 and LCA Mk-2 will not need these LEVCONs because of much greater run that is available at even the Advanced Landing Grounds and consequently much relaxed operating conditions.



Tailless compound, double-delta, wings, merged to the upper body, is what LCA has.



No Tejas does not 'need' more thrust. If the IAF is willing to drop the benefit of larger wings and bigger Radome (which they cannot), ADA can have the LCA modified to something like a Gripen and IAF can feel good about having an MMRCA.




The Gods had to extract that statement after 10 years of bile inducing gastritis from the IAF chief.

And if IAF simply must have the F-414 (which BTW was an afterthought) then should we presume that NLCA Mk-2 would not be good enough considering the perennially higher temperatures and shorter runways they will be operating from. Do you have a view on this comparative?



ADA and the long list of test pilots that are available to ADA are the only one source reliable enough about LCA. IAF is not.

As for Rafale, IAF learnt even the so called life cycle costing from its Vendors. This is an admission and not an accusation. So you can guess what they learnt and what is the decision they made.

As for Rafale's potency, you can check out what happened to similarly potent Eurofighter in Ex. Indradhanush 2015. Remember Rafale won over Eurofighter in the MMRCA competition not based on technicals but based on L-1 lowest life cycle costing. Please post us about what you think about that.




Tejas was sought to be sunk in internal meetings of IAF in 1982 itself. This is an admission and not an accusation. So Tejas start date can be take as 1982. IAF admits again that till 2007 they did not have anybody/anyteam in IAF to support the LCA Mk-1 effort. ADA boss who retired recently also mentions that Tejas was sought to be killed in 2007 period.

Notice no accusations. Only admissions.

As a matter of rule we are only allowed to import stuff that we are already well on our way to make or import from a competitor. Otherwise everything that we cannot yet make is sanctioned.



Fan boy gone mad is more like it :p. So am I
The guy has a motive, it's time we stopped arguing with him, let the mods decide where will the quality of this thread go, if such guys are allowed to carry on with their motivated drivel on tejas.
 

Yumdoot

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The guy has a motive, it's time we stopped arguing with him, let the mods decide where will the quality of this thread go, if such guys are allowed to carry on with their motivated drivel on tejas.
Wow to that post man. And I thought you were tracking only LCA Tejas.

But request you to go slow on Indian members. They may have some issues but they are still ours. I know you have been fighting for too long.

Inme sey kuch ko mein bhi marna chahta hun par marne se pahle chaanw doondna jaroori hai (Translation - I also want to kill a few of them but not before searching for some shade to place them afterwards)
 

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