ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Prashant12]

Source:
http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2016/06/thats-airpower-for-you-2.html

 

[SATISH]

I rather say we have to ditch this project and go ahead with the AMCA. If the airforce is so much interested in this project then make the LCA NAVY and modify the undercarriage to suit the airforce needs. No need to allocate manpower for this project.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Regardless, The manpower will have to be diverted what you suggested besides, This is a based on a tested and successful MK1 design and will take lesser time in trails unlike AMCA & the need for light fighter is essential in IAF as stated by its operational history and IAF own interest ..

AMCA is quite known but not so much MK3 of Tejas..

I rather say we have to ditch this project and go ahead with the AMCA. If the airforce is so much interested in this project then make the LCA NAVY and modify the undercarriage to suit the airforce needs. No need to allocate manpower for this project.

 

[SATISH]

Regardless, The manpower will have to be diverted what you suggested besides, This is a based on a tested and successful MK1 design and will take lesser time in trails unlike AMCA & the need for light fighter is essential in IAF as stated by its operational history and IAF own interest ..

AMCA is quite known but not so much MK3 of Tejas..

Well according the the reports the LCA MKII is going to be a longer aircraft and hence there is going to be a shift in the CoG. This will require design changes and moving around of the internal parts. Also the excess fuel carried on board will have further implications on the design. Yes I understand we need a light fighter/interceptor to make up for the numbers, but that can be solved by redesigning the LCA Navy for the air force.

 

[kstriya]

Well according the the reports the LCA MKII is going to be a longer aircraft and hence there is going to be a shift in the CoG. This will require design changes and moving around of the internal parts. Also the excess fuel carried on board will have further implications on the design. Yes I understand we need a light fighter/interceptor to make up for the numbers, but that can be solved by redesigning the LCA Navy for the air force.

Its better IAF invests in the MK3 project and abandon MK2, by the time IAF receives MK1A variant in full the Chinese will have 5th gen fighters placed near to our borders! Let Navy have the MK2 its suits their requirement. My suggestion is let a young team develop the MK3 variant on lines with the HTT-40 trainer model which delivered the aircraft within the stipulated time, if required get the private sector involved with a promise of definite numbers to be inducted and export potential. A MK3 variant will be a great addition to IAF inventory to deter the Chinese 5th Gen fighters entering our airspace and it will be economical to operate a light fighter in numbers. In war numbers have its own advantage. AMCA being a twin engine aircraft will be costlier to operate and will have limited numbers due to price and requirement. MK3 and AMCA should be developed simultaneously!

 

[SATISH]

Its better IAF invests in the MK3 project and abandon MK2, by the time IAF receives MK1A variant in full the Chinese will have 5th gen fighters placed near to our borders! Let Navy have the MK2 its suits their requirement. My suggestion is let a young team develop the MK3 variant on lines with the HTT-40 trainer model which delivered the aircraft within the stipulated time, if required get the private sector involved with a promise of definite numbers to be inducted and export potential. A MK3 variant will be a great addition to IAF inventory to deter the Chinese 5th Gen fighters entering our airspace and it will be economical to operate a light fighter in numbers. In war numbers have its own advantage. AMCA being a twin engine aircraft will be costlier to operate and will have limited numbers due to price and requirement. MK3 and AMCA should be developed simultaneously!

First of all the reason why I am against the LCA MKII is there are limits to what a light weight fighter can do. I think stealth is a marketing gimmick.
A true fifth generation aircraft is the one that has very low electronic footprint, high situational awareness for the pilot, longer loiter time over the targeted area, better man-machine interface, sensor fusion and datalink capabilities over the previous generation aircraft, better fuel eficiency, more payload and multirole capability. LCA cannot offer these. Light aircrafts like the LCA can be good interceptors but will all ways have less capability over the bigger counterparts.
The Medium size MCA can perform multiple roles and carry more payload. 2 aircrafts can do a job of 4. Less number of pilots required to be on station.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The manpower cannot be freed as there is limit of such resource in context of HAL and ADA, Naval prototypes and Airforce prototypes are being worked out by same team under different arms, That is only possible due to compatibility of these two projects, AMCA is different game.

but that can be solved by redesigning the LCA Navy for the air force.

 

[SATISH]

The manpower cannot be freed as there is limit of such resource in context of HAL and ADA, Naval prototypes and Airforce prototypes are being worked out by same team under different arms, That is only possible due to compatibility of these two projects, AMCA is different game.

Well ADA has completed the Naval LCA design and is awaiting the engine. The airforce variant is yet to be designed. It would be fine Kunal if you can find out how many people are under the air force LCA MK2 team.

 

[BON PLAN]

Source:
http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2016/06/thats-airpower-for-you-2.html

old style wooden scale... .

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I mentioned MK1 not MK2, It is DRDO official`s statement that a quoted ..

The link is posted on Tejas MK1 thread, Its quite old ..

Well ADA has completed the Naval LCA design and is awaiting the engine. The airforce variant is yet to be designed. It would be fine Kunal if you can find out how many people are under the air force LCA MK2 team.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

First of all the reason why I am against the LCA MKII is there are limits to what a light weight fighter can do. I think stealth is a marketing gimmick.
A true fifth generation aircraft is the one that has very low electronic footprint, high situational awareness for the pilot, longer loiter time over the targeted area, better man-machine interface, sensor fusion and datalink capabilities over the previous generation aircraft, better fuel eficiency, more payload and multirole capability. LCA cannot offer these. Light aircrafts like the LCA can be good interceptors but will all ways have less capability over the bigger counterparts.
The Medium size MCA can perform multiple roles and carry more payload. 2 aircrafts can do a job of 4. Less number of pilots required to be on station.

That is why I recommended MK2 out of Naval MK2. It will be in medium category. Weight < 7 tons. Length 15m+. Weight carrying 6. to 7 tons. Range 2500 KM +. An NG class aircraft.

 

[kstriya]

First of all the reason why I am against the LCA MKII is there are limits to what a light weight fighter can do. I think stealth is a marketing gimmick.
A true fifth generation aircraft is the one that has very low electronic footprint, high situational awareness for the pilot, longer loiter time over the targeted area, better man-machine interface, sensor fusion and datalink capabilities over the previous generation aircraft, better fuel eficiency, more payload and multirole capability. LCA cannot offer these. Light aircrafts like the LCA can be good interceptors but will all ways have less capability over the bigger counterparts.
The Medium size MCA can perform multiple roles and carry more payload. 2 aircrafts can do a job of 4. Less number of pilots required to be on station.

When we say 5th Gen fighter it means stealth as one of the characteristics with other attributes like very low electronic footprint, high situational awareness for the pilot, longer loiter time over the targeted area, better man-machine interface, sensor fusion and datalink capabilities over the previous generation aircraft, better fuel eficiency, more payload and multirole capability as you narrated. F35 is a single engine fighter as well as LCA. MK 3 could be a light 5th Gen fighter in its class not in 4.5 generation class.

 

[ersakthivel]

First of all the reason why I am against the LCA MKII is there are limits to what a light weight fighter can do. I think stealth is a marketing gimmick.
A true fifth generation aircraft is the one that has very low electronic footprint, high situational awareness for the pilot, longer loiter time over the targeted area, better man-machine interface, sensor fusion and datalink capabilities over the previous generation aircraft, better fuel eficiency, more payload and multirole capability. LCA cannot offer these. Light aircrafts like the LCA can be good interceptors but will all ways have less capability over the bigger counterparts.
The Medium size MCA can perform multiple roles and carry more payload. 2 aircrafts can do a job of 4. Less number of pilots required to be on station.

with higher power engine, comes very high thrust to weight ratio, which opens up the possibility of super cruise, which significantly enhances range, so the only advantage held by twin engine fighters, ie higher range is covered upto 70% in tejas mk2.

Coming to pay load, engaging more number of fighters for the same task also equals twin engine higher payload,
Bulk of USAF now & in future will be made up of single engined fighters only.
When USAF can have both single engines & twin engine fighters , i dont see why that doesnt apply to IAF in the form of AMCA & tejas mk3 stealth version?

 

[Chirag]

The manpower cannot be freed as there is limit of such resource in context of HAL and ADA, Naval prototypes and Airforce prototypes are being worked out by same team under different arms, That is only possible due to compatibility of these two projects, AMCA is different game.

if manpower is the obstacle it can be easily solved in just 2-3 years. we have numbers of universities and many brilliant students comes out every year. Even only toppers can be chosen HAL can make 4-5 teams every year. HAL needs to give them job and proper training and utilize them in different projects.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

with higher power engine, comes very high thrust to weight ratio, which opens up the possibility of super cruise, which significantly enhances range, so the only advantage held by twin engine fighters, ie higher range is covered upto 70% in tejas mk2.

Coming to pay load, engaging more number of fighters for the same task also equals twin engine higher payload,
Bulk of USAF now & in future will be made up of single engined fighters only.
When USAF can have both single engines & twin engine fighters , i dont see why that doesnt apply to IAF in the form of AMCA & tejas mk3 stealth version?

Saraswat had already said that that there will be Tejas Mk3 and people were discussing that it will be a stealth version of tejas. I want it to be made from Mk2 like pakfa was made out of Su 30 to reduce development time without compromising agilty.

 

[ersakthivel]

Saraswat had already said that that there will be Tejas Mk3 and people were discussing that it will be a stealth version of tejas. I want it to be made from Mk2 like pakfa was made out of Su 30 to reduce development time without compromising agilty.

tejas was designed from ground up with low overall RCS in mind.

SO upgrading it to stealth is a meaningful mission,

Infact the earlier stealth MCA model from ADA was exactly that, which was rejected by IAF ofcourse!!

May be after fullscale tejas mk1 production and induction into IAF, some one from ADA or HAL should sound that out to parrikar,

tejas natually has a highly blended upper wing fuselage, design with no canards , that is ideal for stealth,

russian PAKFA, if you look closely is an iteration of already successful Flanker design , Logical way to follow up.

 

[SATISH]

with higher power engine, comes very high thrust to weight ratio, which opens up the possibility of super cruise, which significantly enhances range, so the only advantage held by twin engine fighters, ie higher range is covered upto 70% in tejas mk2.

Coming to pay load, engaging more number of fighters for the same task also equals twin engine higher payload,
Bulk of USAF now & in future will be made up of single engined fighters only.
When USAF can have both single engines & twin engine fighters , i dont see why that doesnt apply to IAF in the form of AMCA & tejas mk3 stealth version?

70% is not enough at all. The twin engined AMCA is much more versatile and has more internal space compared to the single engine LCA however you see it. For SEAD and DEAD missions VLO is paramount in the modern electronic warfare. The LCA cant do what a twin engined AMCA can do. LCA MK2 is going to be a dud and is going to be too late to make any difference in the modern battlefield.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

tejas was designed from ground up with low overall RCS in mind.

SO upgrading it to stealth is a meaningful mission,

Infact the earlier stealth MCA model from ADA was exactly that, which was rejected by IAF ofcourse!!

May be after fullscale tejas mk1 production and induction into IAF, some one from ADA or HAL should sound that out to parrikar,

tejas natually has a highly blended upper wing fuselage, design with no canards , that is ideal for stealth,

russian PAKFA, if you look closely is an iteration of already successful Flanker design , Logical way to follow up.

One of the scientist said that we have made many changes permissible under aerodynamic limits to make LCA more stealthier.

 

[SATISH]

When we say 5th Gen fighter it means stealth as one of the characteristics with other attributes like very low electronic footprint, high situational awareness for the pilot, longer loiter time over the targeted area, better man-machine interface, sensor fusion and datalink capabilities over the previous generation aircraft, better fuel eficiency, more payload and multirole capability as you narrated. F35 is a single engine fighter as well as LCA. MK 3 could be a light 5th Gen fighter in its class not in 4.5 generation class.

But there is no space for internal weapons. And we dont have a P&W F-135 Powering the LCA.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Contrary to your understanding, Tejas are given first priority as it is obvious by operational nature of IAF, There are more sorties and more airspace are patrol and scanned by light fighters only, Medium fighter such as MIG-29 and mostly tasked with interception and escort duties this was noted during Operation Safed Sagar where as Light fighters tasked with CAS and CAP and more sorties were taken at back of light fighters, Even today highest sortie rate are of Light fighters and medium fighters such as MIG-29 are still doing escort and interception duties with AWACS and mainly tasked with air to air role rather multi-role, This make abundantly clear why IAF asking for successive variants of Tejas and not so hurried for AMCA ..

Calling MK2 outdated in Indian context is rather knee jerking, Please go through the thread in MK1 for better understanding of Tejas capabilities most of what you mention are requirement of MK1 and MK1-P, abt MK3 it is obvious by operational history of IAF that such requirement are indeed a priority, I am sure our scientist are capable of working it out in a better infrastructure and fiance and not in snake infested building during former regime ..

=======================

AMCA specs are much similar to SU-30MKI and not Tejas in terms of range and other details, It will make more sense that a more efficient machine in terms of operational cost and maintenance cost giving same capabilities..

For SEAD and DEAD missions VLO is paramount in the modern electronic warfare. The LCA cant do what a twin engined AMCA can do. LCA MK2 is going to be a dud and is going to be too late to make any difference in the modern battlefield.

First of all the reason why I am against the LCA MKII is there are limits to what a light weight fighter can do. I think stealth is a marketing gimmick. A true fifth generation aircraft is the one that has very low electronic footprint, high situational awareness for the pilot, longer loiter time over the targeted area, better man-machine interface, sensor fusion and datalink capabilities over the previous generation aircraft, better fuel eficiency, more payload and multirole capability. LCA cannot offer these. Light aircrafts like the LCA can be good interceptors but will all ways have less capability over the bigger counterparts.

But there is no space for internal weapons. And we dont have a P&W F-135 Powering the LCA.