ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Super Flanker]

Any update about Tejas MK-2 1st prototype construction? Any photos or something. I would love to see a pic of Tejas MK-2 Prototype under construction.

 

[Tridev123]

Tejas mk1/a series use US engine/no desi option, Rest AMCA/Tejas mk2 gets indigenous engine.
IAF can only use what they got, Mirage capable of pin point strike[thanks to Israel] and having better EW suite compared to jaguar.

Of course, the indigenous high performance jet engine is a puzzle that seems to defy an solution. Are we even investing enough resources to make the effort succeed.
Why should only GTRE be the only agency mandated to develop high performance turbofans. I would think that at least a couple of other organisations should be undertaking parallel research into HP(high performance) turbofans. Which should include at least one reputed private sector entity.

The name of Tata Steel(because expertise in metallurgy is key to developing jet engine components) comes to the mind. Conceding that aerospace grade specialised alloys are quite different from steel. It will be a steep learning curve for the Tatas but at least they are an engineering company which deal with metals. Probably they can receive initial technical support from DRDO/GOI labs like the Mishra Dhatu Nigam Ltd.

Another private sector company that could possibly rise up to the challenge is the the already successful L & T. They have a track record of venturing into new areas of business and succeeding. They have made the hulls of probably all the nuclear submarines that have been developed in India. Dealing with special submarine grade steel and mastering the complex welding needed. Turbofan engine development will be a very new field for them but I believe that if given the time and initial technical assistance their chances of success may cross the 50% mark.

One necessary requirement may be that the Central Government will have to part finance the efforts by the private sector in turbofan engine development. Helping them with subsidies or concessional finance.

An shortcut to solving the problem is if a country like France finally decides to shed its inhibitions and ignore US pressure and shares the crucial hot engine technologies. Training our scientists and engineers.

But somehow the consensus is that India is simply not doing enough to spur turbofan engine research.

No doubt the Mirage 2000 is better than the Jaguar. But why should our future MWF be inferior to the Mirage. I believe the MWF will at least have the Israeli Litening laser targeting pod in case we do not develop an indigenous targeting pod in time.
Whatever technology the current Mirages have will be present in the MWF. In fact it may be a generation ahead.

 

[Tridev123]

The one of the most important factor people do not discuss here is the length of Engine. F414 is one meter shorter than the engine of M2K. It provides a lots of space to accommodate lots of LRUS.

Yes. The GE 414 is a generation ahead of the engine installed in the Mirage 2000.
Though I would wistfully dream of an indigenous engine replacing the GE 414.

But in spite of the obvious advantages of the MWF, it seems that an lobby is hell bent on discrediting the plane.

Just guessing. But the proponents of the F16 and the Gripen have the most to lose if the MWF succeeds big. All are single engine aircraft and the MWF may be better than all the older versions of the F16 and even equal the Gripen E.

 

[kamaal]

Any update about Tejas MK-2 1st prototype construction? Any photos or something. I would love to see a pic of Tejas MK-2 Prototype under construction.

We have PPTs and some promised timelines from ADA, you want some of that ?


ACM is not wrong when he is not committing large numbers for mk2 as there is nothing concrete about mk2 yet. He is very careful when he speaks on indigenous programs, I hope ADA & HAL follow the same and be realistic in media about their work.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Yes. The GE 414 is a generation ahead of the engine installed in the Mirage 2000.
Though I would wistfully dream of an indigenous engine replacing the GE 414.

But in spite of the obvious advantages of the MWF, it seems that an lobby is hell bent on discrediting the plane.

Just guessing. But the proponents of the F16 and the Gripen have the most to lose if the MWF succeeds big. All are single engine aircraft and the MWF may be better than all the older versions of the F16 and even equal the Gripen E.

Atleast, MWF has exceeded Gripen C/D in MTOW and Payload. It has an excellent maneuverability but if we are able to put 75/125 KN engine, it will an @$$ kicking fighter which will defeat any plane in neighborhood in even dog fight. 75/125 KN engine is almost equivalent to AL31 of MKI with significantly lower weight and small size. We must realize this proposed engine in next 7 years to become self reliant in fighter plane technology. By that time, GAN Uttam will also come. a 75/125 KN TVC engine will change the scenario for ever. GO after it in beat mode.

 

[Tridev123]

Atleast, MWF has exceeded Gripen C/D in MTOW and Payload. It has an excellent maneuverability but if we are able to put 75/125 KN engine, it will an @$$ kicking fighter which will defeat any plane in neighborhood in even dog fight. 75/125 KN engine is almost equivalent to AL31 of MKI with significantly lower weight and small size. We must realize this proposed engine in next 7 years to become self reliant in fighter plane technology. By that time, GAN Uttam will also come. a 75/125 KN TVC engine will change the scenario for ever. GO after it in beat mode.

Bro, I really don't know how we are going to realise our objective of an > 100 kn reliable turbofan engine. There is not much information released by the Government. Other than periodic announcements of India thinking of tying up with Saffran or RR. Public announcements cannot replace actual movement on the ground. Even if we sign the agreement for collaboration tomorrow, it will take us a minimum of 5 to 10yrs to develop an prototype. And getting to successfully serial produce the engine while maintaining the quality is another mountain to be scaled. An successful prototype engine does not automatically mean that we can immediately start mass manufacturing it. It takes time. So what are we waiting for. Is Saffran asking for too much money. I believe some meeting point on finance can be worked at. When so much public money is lost in various scams (talking about the scams since independence) and unscrupulous politicians maintain illegal overseas accounts with money running into tens of billions of dollars parked in them, why scrimp too much over paying a little extra to Saffran especially if they guarantee an genuine transfer of technology. Obviously payments will be linked to milestones being achieved.

Or is US pressure holding back France and we are all hostage to the situation.

Coming to our indigenous efforts one fact seems to be clear. Our funding of the ecosystem for turbofan engine development is inadequate. Also on hindsight probably we committed the mistake of setting the bar too high. Trying to develop an state of the art high performance (aiming for an 85 to 90 kn wet thrust engine) jet engine when we had still not mastered the metallurgy aspect. Have we developed turbine blades and accessories which can withstand an very high TET. No.

Probably if we had initially targeted an STFE(HAL project) like project 25 years ago, we might just have succeeded in developing, testing and serial producing the turbofan. Yes, an modest low thrust engine mostly suitable for small aircraft. But its success would have boosted the confidence of our scientists and engineers. Then probably we could have attempted an Kaveri GTX engine.

This practice of aiming too high without realistically assessing our in place capabilities is often the bane of our entire defence R & D effort. We see the products of the West and then wish to bring all their technical attributes into our own indigenous products. In almost all such cases the over ambitious project suffers delays and cost overruns. We succeed in doing the work at about 50% and then get bogged down.

It makes sense to try and execute less ambitious but more feasible defence projects (succeed in the given time frame and within budget) and then try to improve the product in successive iterations.

All of us would be very happy if India can indeed develop an 75/125 kn engine.
Hope your prediction turns out to be true.

 

[MonaLazy]

Our funding of the ecosystem for turbofan engine development is inadequate. Also on hindsight probably we committed the mistake of setting the bar too high.

Kind of shows how the country was run for many decades doesn't it? Ram bharose. You also have to acknowledge the fact that we are a poor country. First world ambitions on a third world wallet is a challenging recipe in any case- only saving grace is the services have been rather patient with our developing agencies (partly because they had no other choice). IGMDP and now the LCA can however be seen as successful programs that beat those incredible odds. Now that the industry isn't in infancy, money is no problem, collaboration with west even for highly guarded jet engine tech is no problem and ambition was never a problem- hope to see a golden decade of Indian MIC.

 

[Tridev123]

Kind of shows how the country was run for many decades doesn't it? Ram bharose. You also have to acknowledge the fact that we are a poor country. First world ambitions on a third world wallet is a challenging recipe in any case- only saving grace is the services have been rather patient with our developing agencies (partly because they had no other choice). IGMDP and now the LCA can however be seen as successful programs that beat those incredible odds. Now that the industry isn't in infancy, money is no problem, collaboration with west even for highly guarded jet engine tech is no problem and ambition was never a problem- hope to see a golden decade of Indian MIC.

I agree, there is a visible change in the defence research environment now. Many futuristic programmes have seen good progress.Probably we can leave our chequered past in defence R & D behind and chart a new future where successes are more than our failures. I would be happy if we manage to equal China in new defence products development. As an first step.

But private sector defence R&D and production should also increase. At least reaching a production level equal to the Govt/public sector output. Since the Government(Armed Forces) is the first and largest customer, they should ensure that the private sector gets at least an decent return on investment. The private sector should feel that investment in own R&D is worthwhile and necessary. A few big success stories in the private sector will act as a catalyst in encouraging others to see a future in defence production.

 

[MonaLazy]

But private sector defence R&D and production should also increase. At least reaching a production level equal to the Govt/public sector output. Since the Government(Armed Forces) is the first and largest customer, they should ensure that the private sector gets at least an decent return on investment. The private sector should feel that investment in own R&D is worthwhile and necessary. A few big success stories in the private sector will act as a catalyst in encouraging others to see a future in defence production.

GoI has to become an enabler and ensure a level playing field between PSU & private entities- that's it! But even that seems too much (eg how does MDL get in on the P-75I which is envisaged under the SP model ie private players only?). Otherwise, there is enough enterprise in the private sector like Bharat Forge scouting the world for arty guns, special purpose vehicles etc & the size of the market is certainly big enough. The inefficiencies inherent in PSU production (CKDs being screwdrivergiri'd inflating cost, then count the margins of the OEM and the PSU itself) means the private players should be making a killing if they outright buy the IP and produce it from as close to raw material as economically feasible in a factory locally. Of course the more they indigenise the bigger their profit so there is a natural incentive for atma nirbharta, only the customer has to place large enough orders upfront (as opposed to the piecemeal approach that finds flavour currently) to make such an exercise worth pursuing.

 

[MirageBlue]

It does not need but they will include it.

No they wont. Gone is the fascination with super maneuverability. What is considered far more important are the avionics, network centricity and stealth.

 

[The Mimic]

No they wont. Gone is the fascination with super maneuverability. What is considered far more important are the avionics, network centricity and stealth.

I will admit only after official statement.

 

[Ar.gaurav28]

No they wont. Gone is the fascination with super maneuverability. What is considered far more important are the avionics, network centricity and stealth.

I will admit only after official statement.

It’s the IAF we are talking about…obviously they want it all maybe few more things than there is in NGAD program!
IAF’s expectations are always high but it’s about what HAL & ADA can deliver.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Bro, I really don't know how we are going to realise our objective of an > 100 kn reliable turbofan engine. There is not much information released by the Government. Other than periodic announcements of India thinking of tying up with Saffran or RR. Public announcements cannot replace actual movement on the ground. Even if we sign the agreement for collaboration tomorrow, it will take us a minimum of 5 to 10yrs to develop an prototype. And getting to successfully serial produce the engine while maintaining the quality is another mountain to be scaled. An successful prototype engine does not automatically mean that we can immediately start mass manufacturing it. It takes time. So what are we waiting for. Is Saffran asking for too much money. I believe some meeting point on finance can be worked at. When so much public money is lost in various scams (talking about the scams since independence) and unscrupulous politicians maintain illegal overseas accounts with money running into tens of billions of dollars parked in them, why scrimp too much over paying a little extra to Saffran especially if they guarantee an genuine transfer of technology. Obviously payments will be linked to milestones being achieved.

Or is US pressure holding back France and we are all hostage to the situation.

Coming to our indigenous efforts one fact seems to be clear. Our funding of the ecosystem for turbofan engine development is inadequate. Also on hindsight probably we committed the mistake of setting the bar too high. Trying to develop an state of the art high performance (aiming for an 85 to 90 kn wet thrust engine) jet engine when we had still not mastered the metallurgy aspect. Have we developed turbine blades and accessories which can withstand an very high TET. No.

Probably if we had initially targeted an STFE(HAL project) like project 25 years ago, we might just have succeeded in developing, testing and serial producing the turbofan. Yes, an modest low thrust engine mostly suitable for small aircraft. But its success would have boosted the confidence of our scientists and engineers. Then probably we could have attempted an Kaveri GTX engine.

This practice of aiming too high without realistically assessing our in place capabilities is often the bane of our entire defence R & D effort. We see the products of the West and then wish to bring all their technical attributes into our own indigenous products. In almost all such cases the over ambitious project suffers delays and cost overruns. We succeed in doing the work at about 50% and then get bogged down.

It makes sense to try and execute less ambitious but more feasible defence projects (succeed in the given time frame and within budget) and then try to improve the product in successive iterations.

All of us would be very happy if India can indeed develop an 75/125 kn engine.
Hope your prediction turns out to be true.

EJ 200's new engine is designed for 72 KN dry and 116 KN afterburner. The ptoposed engine offers marginal improvement over it.

 

[MirageBlue]

I will admit only after official statement.

What official statement? Show me a SINGLE OFFICIAL statement that there is TVC in the first place!

Or go check out the AMCA model on show during Aero India 2021 as well as the interview with Dr Girish Deodhare. There is no mention of TVC and the F-414 is not equipped with a TVC nozzle. Nor is it mentioned anywhere for the new 110 kN engine.

It adds weight, increases the failure chances and basically is of no use unless in a WVR fight which any fighter wants to avoid. No Air Force understands Post-stall maneuvering as well as the IAF and USAF thanks to the Su-30MKI and F-22 being TVC equipped, but the general opinion is clear - it is great for air shows, possibly even for BFM, but not worth the complexity and weight. When a pilot is equipped with a HMDS and a very high offbore sight missile then it evens out the odds for non-TVC equipped fighters in a dogfight.

 

[flanker99]

Le mudi on random days- atmanirbhar banao desh bachao....
Mudi when it comes to releasing funds-thak gya mai bro kal pakka
This is absolutely sickening state of affairs

 

[Chinmoy]

Le mudi on random days- atmanirbhar banao desh bachao....
Mudi when it comes to releasing funds-thak gya mai bro kal pakka
This is absolutely sickening state of affairs

????

What is your point???

 

[India Super Power]

Le mudi on random days- atmanirbhar banao desh bachao....
Mudi when it comes to releasing funds-thak gya mai bro kal pakka
This is absolutely sickening state of affairs

What was the tweet

 

[flanker99]

????

What is your point???

IT was a tweet by HVT sir he basically said CCS has yet to give its clearence and funds to build prototypes for tejas mk2 and all the design related activities are complete.
Basically confirming saurav jha sir's about how agencies are using leftover funds to build a single prototype

 

[Chinmoy]

IT was a tweet by HVT sir he basically said CCS has yet to give its clearence and funds to build prototypes for tejas mk2 and all the design related activities are complete.
Basically confirming saurav jha sir's about how agencies are using leftover funds to build a single prototype

I did read the tweet. HVT sir mentioned that CCS approval and funds has been sanctioned. For prototype building CCS approval is pending.

No where he mentioned that funds has not been released as you are mentioning.

 

[flanker99]

I did read the tweet. HVT sir mentioned that CCS approval and funds has been sanctioned. For prototype building CCS approval is pending.

No where he mentioned that funds has not been released as you are mentioning.

oh so u mean ccs can release funds but hasnt given a clearence to build prototype?