ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Flying Dagger]

First scam of independent India was Army Jeep purchase scam of 1948. Role of MoD babus? ZERO. Our HC in England bypassed each and every institution and signed the deal on his own with backing of PM.

Role of MoD babus in bofors scam? Next to none. RG had gone out of way and bypassed agencies in going forward with the deal.

Same with TATRA. Vectra and TATRA Sipox and not approached MoD babus, but BEML and end user to push their overpriced products.

MoD babus do create delay in procurements and no one could deny the fact. But you have to understand the fact too that why such delays do occur. Its not because the bureaucrats are lazy, but because of procedures that was layed before them. For example the recent 36000 Cr corvettes deal. What is the timeframe you believe it would take to deliver al the corvettes? Even if you start manufacturing them from today in two different yards, they are not coming before 2024. What if the government change in 2024 elections and the new government don't want to pursue with the project? And don't even think that its not possible. It has happened earlier. The role of the babus is to prevent such occurrence and to see that the projects gets completed anyhow.

So blaming babus all the time for each and everything under sun is not prudent. They work under the policy which has been layed down and in most cases policy do change with government. So whether we like or not, they are the balancing factor which we can't do without.

Hope @Blademaster too would agree with it. As for other essay writing intelligent people, logic is beyond their touch.

The road isn't as crystal clear as you have laid it down though....

Corruption exists in our babudom too... and not just at top level leadership.

Infact there is a process of corruption being institutionalised in India.


From getting a ration card to passport

Driving a car on road to building your home with your hard earn money without bribe nothing is possible...

But yes there are two sides of the coin so they do filter out lot of wrong doing which would have happened if it was left for just leaders. But that's why they exist but they aren't able to do their job efficiently and the delay and constant bribe scam are example of that.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Yes. Fund releasing and go ahead for prototype manufacturing are two different processes.

As a developer/manufacturer, I've to submit a DPR asking for fund to do a feasibility study. Based on feasibility study, I would have to submit report where I've to mention the current industrial capability along with prerequisites for manufacturing if there is any. These prerequisites might include land acquisition for new facility development or involvement of foreign OEM for development help or off the shelf product purchase.

Now we all know that Tejas Mk2 is not coming up with 100% indigenous product. So when foreign OEM is involved, MEA comes into play who is BTW part of CCS. Along with it Law ministry would also come in play if we go for GtoG deal or open tendering. Likewise if any any manufacturing unit is required, environmental clearance and state clearance is another hindrance and accordingly involved ministry would get involve.

Fund allocation is a simple process when you compare it with other processes. PM, who chair the CCS, would simply sign the go ahead letter. But before that other ministries, who is part of CCS, would have to break the logjam.

Hope you get the process involve.

Nope. Funds for the first 2 Protos have been released already. It's the funds for the next 2 I guess it's pending. Ada wants to build them at a single go as they expect minimal change btw prototypes.

 

[DeadCritic]

Nope. Funds for the first 2 Protos have been released already. It's the funds for the next 2 I guess it's pending. Ada wants to build them at a single go as they expect minimal change btw prototypes.

All the news suggest its only sufficient for first prototype, that is why they are asking GOI for more funds as process for building(acquiring 3rd party machinery) needs to start now otherwise it will be delayed

 

[Chinmoy]

I understand where you are coming from but the reality is that now MoD is just one big Byzantine bureaucratic mess. Bureaucracy is necessary and in fact helpful but only when it is streamlined and periodically updated and reformed to avoid any unnecessary bottlenecks. In western countries, they figured out to minimized the negative effects of bureaucracy by requiring shedding a minimum 10% of the workforce across all board every 10 years to cleanse out any building up of excess bureaucrats and avoid entrenching long term bureaucrats. They also require that all bureaucrats do a top to bottom review of all work processes every 10-15 years to ensure that they are up to date and etc. I don't see that happening anywhere in India let alone in MoD. Perhaps WarrenSS can shed some light on this.

What you are saying is absolutely true and even I had not deny it. But its the job of politburo to streamline bureaucracy, not the other way around. Bureaucrats are there to make inroads on what the head of echelon wants.
For example when Late Dr. Parrikar wanted to shove Tejas down the throat of IAF, bureaucrats didn't created a hurdle giving excuse of foreign or specifically Russian lobby who wanted to stall it. Same with other departments like MEA, MHA. It matters who is at top and what they want.

Another point of short term bureaucracy is only possible when the political elite would bring in a massive change. But for MoD, forget it as of now. Changing bureaucrats at short interval is suicidal and our neighbour is burning example of that in our front.

But anyway lets take this political chit chat away from this thread and discuss it in relevant thread.

 

[Chinmoy]

The road isn't as crystal clear as you have laid it down though....

Corruption exists in our babudom too... and not just at top level leadership.

Infact there is a process of corruption being institutionalised in India.


From getting a ration card to passport

Driving a car on road to building your home with your hard earn money without bribe nothing is possible...

But yes there are two sides of the coin so they do filter out lot of wrong doing which would have happened if it was left for just leaders. But that's why they exist but they aren't able to do their job efficiently and the delay and constant bribe scam are example of that.

Lets take this political discussion in a relevant thread. I could lay down the OSI layer of corruption for you to decide.

 

[Chinmoy]

Nope. Funds for the first 2 Protos have been released already. It's the funds for the next 2 I guess it's pending. Ada wants to build them at a single go as they expect minimal change btw prototypes.

I am sure you have got this info from IDRW. Now lets look into the news.

https://idrw.org/tejas-mark-ii-second-prototype-likely-to-be-delayed-due-to-fund-crunch/

Now in the first para itself they have mentioned that ADA has used 'seed amount' to build the first prototype. Seed amount is the initial amount which is provided by customer or in this case GoI to carry out a feasibility study of any project. Now if the ADA has used that fund to make a prototype, they have the right to do it. But no where it means that funds has been released for prototype making.

Moreover I would say that HVT is more reliable then IDRW.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

New intake design for Tejas Mk2 in the recent wind tunnel model

 

[WarmongerLSK]

View attachment 160053

New intake design for Tejas Mk2 in the recent wind tunnel model

Didn't we already see the slanted inlet design sometime last year?

 

[flanker99]

View attachment 160053

New intake design for Tejas Mk2 in the recent wind tunnel model

 

[Emperor Kalki]

Didn't we already see the slanted inlet design sometime last year?

Tracking The Tejas: How The Tejas Mk2 Design Became The Medium Weight Fighter | Delhi Defence Review

delhidefencereview.com

Its right here even in this piece from 2019.
Nothing new here. Its been some time since the design was frozen.

 

[MirageBlue]

View attachment 160053

New intake design for Tejas Mk2 in the recent wind tunnel model

So damn pleasing to the eye..the proportions are just perfect, setting right everything I didn't particularly like with the LCA.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I am sure you have got this info from IDRW. Now lets look into the news.

https://idrw.org/tejas-mark-ii-second-prototype-likely-to-be-delayed-due-to-fund-crunch/

Now in the first para itself they have mentioned that ADA has used 'seed amount' to build the first prototype. Seed amount is the initial amount which is provided by customer or in this case GoI to carry out a feasibility study of any project. Now if the ADA has used that fund to make a prototype, they have the right to do it. But no where it means that funds has been released for prototype making.

Moreover I would say that HVT is more reliable then IDRW.

I won't even be the last person to trust IDRW. In this same.very thread, probably it would have been easy for me to find out if people weren't discussion non related stuffs in this thread, someone shared a trust link that initial amount had been sanctioned which was like 2400 crores including design, development of components, labs etc. I will try to recover that link when I can.

 

[Chinmoy]

I won't even be the last person to trust IDRW. In this same.very thread, probably it would have been easy for me to find out if people weren't discussion non related stuffs in this thread, someone shared a trust link that initial amount had been sanctioned which was like 2400 crores including design, development of components, labs etc. I will try to recover that link when I can.

That is seed money. That is what I am talking about. If you have see the latest media reports, Tejas Mk-2 is still undergoing structural changes. May be these changes were done in last fiscal year, but it has been done. Prototype making includes scaled prototypes for wind tunnel test, computational data tests, structural tests, RCS tests and others. Here we are talking about flying prototype.
Now as I said, ADA and HAL can go ahead with flying or ground test full scale prototype with their internal funds or even with seed money.

 

[flanker99]

That is seed money. That is what I am talking about. If you have see the latest media reports, Tejas Mk-2 is still undergoing structural changes. May be these changes were done in last fiscal year, but it has been done. Prototype making includes scaled prototypes for wind tunnel test, computational data tests, structural tests, RCS tests and others. Here we are talking about flying prototype.
Now as I said, ADA and HAL can go ahead with flying or ground test full scale prototype with their internal funds or even with seed money.

It isnt going any structural changes people are picking up dieno's post from twitter.
The changes he mentioned were already there in some models while not in others

 

[Chinmoy]

It isnt going any structural changes people are picking up dieno's post from twitter.
The changes he mentioned were already there in some models while not in others

The IRST position along with IFR probe undergone changes.

As far as intake is concerned, the wind tunnel model do show some changes.

 

[flanker99]

The IRST position along with IFR probe undergone changes.

As far as intake is concerned, the wind tunnel model do show some changes.

i havent properly looked at irst or IFR but the intake changes were done before AI 21 so not recent....in AI the biggest mk2 model had the changes but the smaller ones didnt
even this old ddr article pics had those intake change

Tracking The Tejas: How The Tejas Mk2 Design Became The Medium Weight Fighter | Delhi Defence Review

delhidefencereview.com

 

[Chinmoy]

i havent properly looked at irst or IFR but the intake changes were done before AI 21 so not recent....in AI the biggest mk2 model had the changes but the smaller ones didnt
even this old ddr article pics had those intake change

Tracking The Tejas: How The Tejas Mk2 Design Became The Medium Weight Fighter | Delhi Defence Review

delhidefencereview.com

It means changes and study were on going with Mk2. That is what I've said.

The fund allocated was for design study and component development. Till now no prototype development fund has been allocated.

 

[flanker99]

It means changes and study were on going with Mk2. That is what I've said.

If you have see the latest media reports, Tejas Mk-2 is still undergoing structural changes.

u said still undergoing i said it isnt and from the evidence given its clear that intakes change was done long back....i have not observed any other major changes since AI 21.

The fund allocated was for design study and component development. Till now no prototype development fund has been allocated.

when did i ask anything about this?

 

[Chinmoy]

u said still undergoing i said it isnt and from the evidence given its clear that intakes change was done long back....i have not observed any other major changes since AI 21.

Then I am right. Look at the DDR link you provided. The rendering has canted intakes as oppose to level intakes of the model in display.

DDR tweeted this in Jul 2021. We could clearly see the canted intake similar to what we have seen recently.

This is what has been displayed in AI 21. There is massive difference in what has been showed in AI and what is undergoing test.

when did i ask anything about this?

You didn't ask it. Someone else did, which I responded.

 

[flanker99]

Then I am right. Look at the DDR link you provided. The rendering has canted intakes as oppose to level intakes of the model in display.

View attachment 160329

DDR tweeted this in Jul 2021. We could clearly see the canted intake similar to what we have seen recently.

View attachment 160330

This is what has been displayed in AI 21. There is massive difference in what has been showed in AI and what is undergoing test.



You didn't ask it. Someone else did, which I responded.

U are confused about what u said and now spinning ur own words.
Here's another model from AI 21 with the new intakes...design changes were made before AI not after .
Which makes me right.