ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Punya Pratap]

Deputy Chief of Air Staff Flies Tejas | Frontier India



As usual while TOIlet offered the words of wisdom of "naik not allowing his boys to fly this tejas plane", has failed to mention the few lines above.

Down the TOIlet these words have been flushed of course, "Having had first hand experience and feel of the aircraft DCAS expressed that the aircraft handles well both on the ground and in the air".

So the high standards are being kept up, Good going , keep it up. never report a single positive sentence on tejas and Arjun.

Tejas handled like a dream....but that is only for private conversation!!

 

[ersakthivel]

Tejas handled like a dream....but that is only for private conversation!!

yeah, Since our retired brass has dumped tons of shit on tejas,

like it is worse than mig-21 bison,

and it should be stopped immediately and we should pick up the good things from it and move on to next project,

in the recently concluded vayu start post conference , TOI has decided not to indulge in blasphemy by printing these words.

TOI nowadays hates social media very much like our retied chaca kabil Sibal.

recently they carried an article quoting some blah blah that social media inhibits people from expressing opinion contrary to the opinion of friends expressed in social media!!!

Some one must give them a link to DFI , where How "good friends" are indulging "cordial and healthy debate"(by calling each other idiot,troll, dumbass and jack ass) expressing opinions exactly opposite .

Or ,may be they don't like it because it exposes the sodomy committed by our National English "Noose" media!!!

 

[Punya Pratap]

yeah, Since our retired brass has dumped tons of shit on tejas,

like it is worse than mig-21 bison,

and it should be stopped immediately and we should pick up the good things from it and move on to next project,

in the recently concluded vayu start post conference , TOI has decided not to indulge in blasphemy by printing these words.

TOI nowadays hates social media very much like our retied chaca kabil Sibal.

recently they carried an article quoting some blah blah that social media inhibits people from expressing opinion contrary to the opinion of friends expressed in social media!!!

Some one must give them a link to DFI , where How "good friends" are indulging "cordial and healthy debate"(by calling each other dumbass and jack ass) expressing opinions exactly opposite .

Or ,may be they don't like it because it exposes the sodomy committed by our National English "Noose" media!!!

Nowadays even our great Sickularist Vinod mehha of OUTLOOK offers routine condolences to social media before starting a piece.(see his recent work of art in TOI about 100 days of modi govt.)

What really gets my geese is how some of the naysayers behave when somebody (especially a new comer) posts something with even a little bit of appreciation for Tejas.

One learned gentleman here acts like a old hag of a woman going through menopause dishing out expletives in tonnes on any poor soul who dares to say anything favourable about Tejas. If you have a point of view and some knowledge than please be generous and share it in a dignified way!! It is after all a discussion forum where people come to seek knowledge not rob your milions from your bank!!

 

[ersakthivel]

What really gets my geese is how some of the naysayers behave when somebody (especially a new comer) posts something with even a little bit of appreciation for Tejas.

One learned gentleman here acts like a old hag of a woman going through menopause dishing out expletives in tonnes on any poor soul who dares to say anything favourable about Tejas. If you have a point of view and some knowledge than please be generous and share it in a dignified way!! It is after all a discussion forum where people come to seek knowledge not rob your milions from your bank!!

Well ,there is no other way than to defend a plain white lie built up with thousands of posts spending years of effort.

 

[Punya Pratap]

@ Ersakthievel To add to your point about the top echelons of both IAF & IA brass's nonsensical opposition to Tejas/Arjun and the mid ranking or common soldier facing the music heres' an article :

LCA Tejas, MIG-21s and IAF – Opportunity missed – hope it is not lost!
July 23, 2013 by P. Chacko Joseph 1 Comment


Indian Air Force (IAF) Mig-21"²s have been crashing regularly. The recent plea by Wing Commander Sanjeet Singh Kaila, a serving officer with IAF that flying the MiG-21 amounted to "violation of his fundamental right to life, especially the right to work in a safe environment" is a telling blow to continuation of Mig 21s in IAF. The longest serving fighter aircraft of the world is of course having its problems and issues due to factors related to fatigue and technology obsolescence. However, IAF should look deeper in its recent history to understand and may be rectify what it is doing or has done to its force strength and capabilities.
The LCA – Tejas is considered as replacement for Mig 21s in the IAF in current popular media. We would like to look at this assertion with a view from history of LCA development.
LCA Tejas is not a replacement for MiG-21
Back in 1971 war, IAF downed many United States supplied Pakistan Air Force F-86 Sabre's with British made light fighter Folland Gnat, which was also called Ajeet in Indian service. After the war, the IAF decided to build a local fighter which would replace GNAT'S/ Ajeet's in service and the Light Combat Aircraft project was born. IAF's Soviet Union Supplied Mig-21 aircraft was a different class.
Folland Gnat / Ajeet Light Figher
Folland Gnat / Ajeet Light Figher. Image IAF

LCA was supposed to enter service in 1990"²s, when Ajeets were scheduled to be retired. Procedural delay's, infrastructure set up and other factors delayed the project till late 1990"²s. Once Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Phase-I of LCA was sanctioned in June 1993 , the Defence Research Development Organisation's and Aeronautical Development Agency ( DRDO and ADA), flew the first prototype in 2001.
In 2004, IAF formulated the final Air Staff Requirement (ASR), which mirror the requirements of a Mig -21 ++ replacement. The matter is complicated as the power requirement surged and a higher thrust engine is now required. 2004 ASR was in effect counter to the very philosophy of LCA project. It basically makes it a bigger and heavier fighter.
LCA-Mk-1 today not just meets the original requirement for a small light agile sophisticated fighter which was supposed to replace Ajeet's, but also surpasses Mig-21 specs. LCA Mk-II is more suited for a ground attack role than an air combat fighter.
Although future wars can not just an extension of past wars in terms of how they will pan out, yet historical battle analysis is ususally considered a guideline for next war. Given the Gnats performance in 1971 – will LCA which is an agile high performing aircraft with new structure and modern avionics be adequate to the needs. IAF and the country should answer this.
It will be prudent, given the Mig-21s situation, FGFA cost escalation and question of future of manned fighter aircraft in the wake of UAVs, Drones and UCAVs to give serious consideration for LCA Mark I to become a workhorse of IAF – and not as a replacement for Mig-21"²s but a value addition to IAF

Afterall It is nt the Naik's who were dying in the Flying Coffin aircrashes but young pilots like Kalia!! HAL & IAF were having a field day trying to shred Kalia's reputation and questioning his patriotism!!

As for the ASQR's please ask the learned fellas whether they know about the year 1985 and 2004... to start with I would like them to come and clarify about the weapons load out initially envisioned for the Tejas mission

For example lets take the A2A profile which has completely changed between the original ASQR and what IAF wants now!! The confused IAF is stuck on the Multi role concept to such an extent that they have changed the entire profile of the LCA program to make it a near Mid category multi role fighter that Tejas Mk2 will become!!

I for one would like to thank DRDO and ADA for forseeing the future developments such as FBW & RSS even though they took time!!

Err on a footnote I think some of the mess could have been cleared if only HAL had not been completely side lined and IAF "MADE" to participate in the project!

 

[ersakthivel]

@ Ersakthievel To add to your point about the top echelons of both IAF & IA brass's nonsensical opposition to Tejas/Arjun and the mid ranking or common soldier facing the music heres' an article :

LCA Tejas, MIG-21s and IAF – Opportunity missed – hope it is not lost!
July 23, 2013 by P. Chacko Joseph 1 Comment


Indian Air Force (IAF) Mig-21"²s have been crashing regularly. The recent plea by Wing Commander Sanjeet Singh Kaila, a serving officer with IAF that flying the MiG-21 amounted to "violation of his fundamental right to life, especially the right to work in a safe environment" is a telling blow to continuation of Mig 21s in IAF. The longest serving fighter aircraft of the world is of course having its problems and issues due to factors related to fatigue and technology obsolescence. However, IAF should look deeper in its recent history to understand and may be rectify what it is doing or has done to its force strength and capabilities.
The LCA – Tejas is considered as replacement for Mig 21s in the IAF in current popular media. We would like to look at this assertion with a view from history of LCA development.
LCA Tejas is not a replacement for MiG-21
Back in 1971 war, IAF downed many United States supplied Pakistan Air Force F-86 Sabre's with British made light fighter Folland Gnat, which was also called Ajeet in Indian service. After the war, the IAF decided to build a local fighter which would replace GNAT'S/ Ajeet's in service and the Light Combat Aircraft project was born. IAF's Soviet Union Supplied Mig-21 aircraft was a different class.
Folland Gnat / Ajeet Light Figher
Folland Gnat / Ajeet Light Figher. Image IAF

LCA was supposed to enter service in 1990"²s, when Ajeets were scheduled to be retired. Procedural delay's, infrastructure set up and other factors delayed the project till late 1990"²s. Once Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Phase-I of LCA was sanctioned in June 1993 , the Defence Research Development Organisation's and Aeronautical Development Agency ( DRDO and ADA), flew the first prototype in 2001.
In 2004, IAF formulated the final Air Staff Requirement (ASR), which mirror the requirements of a Mig -21 ++ replacement. The matter is complicated as the power requirement surged and a higher thrust engine is now required. 2004 ASR was in effect counter to the very philosophy of LCA project. It basically makes it a bigger and heavier fighter.
LCA-Mk-1 today not just meets the original requirement for a small light agile sophisticated fighter which was supposed to replace Ajeet's, but also surpasses Mig-21 specs. LCA Mk-II is more suited for a ground attack role than an air combat fighter.
Although future wars can not just an extension of past wars in terms of how they will pan out, yet historical battle analysis is ususally considered a guideline for next war. Given the Gnats performance in 1971 – will LCA which is an agile high performing aircraft with new structure and modern avionics be adequate to the needs. IAF and the country should answer this.
It will be prudent, given the Mig-21s situation, FGFA cost escalation and question of future of manned fighter aircraft in the wake of UAVs, Drones and UCAVs to give serious consideration for LCA Mark I to become a workhorse of IAF – and not as a replacement for Mig-21"²s but a value addition to IAF

Afterall It is nt the Naik's who were dying in the Flying Coffin aircrashes but young pilots like Kalia!! HAL & IAF were having a field day trying to shred Kalia's reputation and questioning his patriotism!!

As for the ASQR's please ask the learned fellas whether they know about the year 1985 and 2004... to start with I would like them to come and clarify about the weapons load out initially envisioned for the Tejas mission

For example lets take the A2A profile which has completely changed between the original ASQR and what IAF wants now!! The confused IAF is stuck on the Multi role concept to such an extent that they have changed the entire profile of the LCA program to make it a near Mid category multi role fighter that Tejas Mk2 will become!!

I for one would like to thank DRDO and ADA for forseeing the future developments such as FBW & RSS even though they took time!!

Err on a footnote I think some of the mess could have been cleared if only HAL had not been completely side lined and IAF "MADE" to participate in the project!

tejas has a slightly bigger radome dia than the RAFALE if fuselage is enlarged for GE-414.

tejas mk1 has a slightly lower top speeds than RAFALE as well with almost the same clean config RCS of RAFALE.

other than the longer range and higher pay load on all other parameters the tejas mk-1 will be better than 80 percent of the present IAF fleet.

And tejas mk-2 will have 120 km range BVR in Astra mk-2, What is the max range of BVRs on MIG-29?

Even with fully loaded air to air config LCA mk-2 will have far lesser RCS than the MIG-29 . Meaning it can get closer to fire it's BVRs giving them a much better kill ratios.

A fully loaded Sukhoi for air to air mission will be spotted by enemy airborne radars at nearly thrice the distance of that of tejas mk-1.

It will carry the combined weapon load of Jag and Mig-21 with lesser RCS than the MIG-29 and the Su-30 and more thrust to weight ratio than the mirage-2000 with equal detection and tracking range of RAFALE radar with almost the same RCS of RAFALE.

According to all available open source info the more than 90 percent composite skin on the tejas surface will have a much better resistance to tough weather in India and weighs less with more stealthy characteristics ,

Already methods were developed to spot the fatigue cracks through state of the art tech and take any corrective action needed.

17 deg sustained turn rate is the initial ASR set for LCA mk-1 just 1 degree less than F-16 block C/D.

1.Even with 6G and 20 deg AOA limitation the LCA has already completed a horizontal loop in Aeroindia demo within 23 seconds. That comes to a STR of close to 16 deg with the limitations of partially opened flight envelope.We don't know whether the plane was stretched even to this partial limit of 6Gs and 20 Deg AOA in that demo.

Also with the same 6G 20 deg AOA restriction it completed a vertical loop within 20 seconds in AeroIndia 2013 ,meaning it had a STR of close to 18 deg in vertical loop. In a recent fly past the Su-35 too completed the powered vertical loop within 18 seconds. Once again We don't know whether the plane was stretched even to this partial limit of 6Gs and 20 Deg AOA in that demo.

Recent reports in a blog indicate that LCA mk-1 has achieved a Sustained Turn Rate to the IAf's satisfaction even with 1 ton extra empty weight than the original target of 5470 kg. SO it must have improved over the aeroindia2013 demo in a substantial manner.

So in no way can the initial airframe design can be called draggy.

Also the TWR ratio of LCA with 50 percent fuel is 1.07. Same for F-16 is 1.25. So with even lower thrust to weight ratio than F-16 C/D , LCA has managed to pull closer to the F-16 C/D .

In mk-2 it will only further improve, with weight reduction due to more composite percentage and a 20 percent higher thrust engine in GE F414 IN S 6. Since the length of fuselage is going to be expanded by 0.5 meter only it won't add to much empty weight either.

Also with an empty weight of 8.5 ton F-16 C/D carries 3.1 ton fuel.

LCA mk-1 with it's empty weight of 6.4 tons carries 2.5 ton fuel.SO LCA mk-1 has a close to 10 percent better fuel fraction ratio than the F-16 C/ D. Indicating it won't suffer much in range in an air to air configuration of 2 ton air to air missile load which is it's primary role.

But by having a significantly lower wing loading than the F-16 C/D Tejas mk-1 will have a much better Instantaneous turn Rate than the 26 degree given for F-16 C/ D.

Even the initial ASR given for LCA by MSD Woollen indicates a requirement of 30 deg maximum attainable in the ADA website.

So in the all important high off bore sight WVR missile launching capacity based on Instantaneous Turn Rate , it will be better than the F-16 C/D, just going by the low wing loading factor alone.. But needs citation of course.

Regarding weapon load IAF has changed the BVR missile spec to more weight and more launch stress inducing missiles which resulted in redesign of wing and reduction in weapon load.

Also once testing telemetry equipment is taken off the LSPs another 0.4 ton will be added.

And redesign of it's avionics display is also expected to shave off around 100 to 200 Kg of weight as per some reports from Ajaishukla,

Taking its weapon load to around 4 tons. Which is what carried on any fighter for a normal mission.

Within this 80 percent opening it has achieved close to 22 deg AOA and 18 deg STR which is nothing to complain about.

Once the spin recovery parameters test is completed it will achieve the remaining 20 percent of
it's flight envelope parameters.
And by no stretch of imagination a fighter like LCA which has

1. a 4 ton pay load ,
2.capable of firing 120 KM range BVR
3.with one of the lowest RCS helping it to approach the enemy fighter closer before being detected
4.capable of launching laser guided long range ground attack munitions
5.with comparable leading STR and ITR specs

is going to be history, What is going to be history is the fighters like Jaguar, and MIG-21, 23 and 27(400 of which serve in IAF as on date!!!!!!) which have none of the above capabilities .

A combination of TWR, wing loading and Instantaneous turn rate at close combat speeds which determine the close combat specs of a fighter,

It exceeds IAF's blue eyed beauty Mirage-2000 in all these parameters in a significant manner.

IAF is spending 40 million dollar a piece for upgrading to each Mirage-2000. Even after these upgrades the60 Mirage-2000s will have lesser TWR, wing loading and Instantaneous turn rate at close combat speeds and lesser climb rate than the Tejas Mk-1.

Only Su-30 MKI and Mig-29s can exceed the tejas that too by about around ten percent only in close combat specs.
Both are twin engined fighters with many times higher clean config RCS than the Tejas . And their reliability and availability rate is not as good compared the GE-414 equipped Tejas.

Some times in a squadron of Mig-29s the availability rate is single digit only.

So Tejas is as modern and as reliable and as effective as any other fighter in IAF.

Because it is ours we can introduce any new weapons in future without begging permission from the OE makers and it will be upgraded on regular basis,

The tejas mk-1 it self will carry both the akash mk-1 and MK-2 which will have 80 Km and 120 Km range in future.

Tejas has a slightly bigger radome dia than the RAFALE if fuselage is enlarged for GE-414.

tejas mk1 has a slightly lower top speeds than RAFALE as well with almost the same clean config RCS of RAFALE.

other than the longer range and higher pay load on all other parameters the tejas mk-1 will be better than 80 percent of the present IAF fleet.

And tejas mk-2 will have 120 km range BVR in Astra mk-2, What is the max range of BVRs on MIG-29?

Even with fully loaded air to air config LCA mk-2 will have far lesser RCS than the MIG-29 . Meaning it can get closer to fire it's BVRs giving them a much better kill ratios.

A fully loaded Sukhoi for air to air mission will be spotted by enemy airborne radars at nearly thrice the distance of that of tejas mk-1.

It will carry the combined weapon load of Jag and Mig-21 with lesser RCS than the MIG-29 and the Su-30 and more thrust to weight ratio than the mirage-2000 with equal detection and tracking range of RAFALE radar with almost the same RCS of RAFALE.

According to all available open source info the more than 90 percent composite skin on the tejas surface will have a much better resistance to tough weather in India and weighs less with more stealthy characteristics ,

Already methods were developed to spot the fatigue cracks through state of the art tech and take any corrective action needed.

17 deg sustained turn rate is the initial ASR set for LCA mk-1 just 1 degree less than F-16 block C/D.

1.Even with 6G and 20 deg AOA limitation the LCA has already completed a horizontal loop in Aeroindia demo within 23 seconds. That comes to a STR of close to 16 deg with the limitations of partially opened flight envelope.We don't know whether the plane was stretched even to this partial limit of 6Gs and 20 Deg AOA in that demo.

Also with the same 6G 20 deg AOA restriction it completed a vertical loop within 20 seconds in AeroIndia 2013 ,meaning it had a STR of close to 18 deg in vertical loop. In a recent fly past the Su-35 too completed the powered vertical loop within 18 seconds. Once again We don't know whether the plane was stretched even to this partial limit of 6Gs and 20 Deg AOA in that demo.

Recent reports in a blog indicate that LCA mk-1 has achieved a Sustained Turn Rate to the IAf's satisfaction even with 1 ton extra empty weight than the original target of 5470 kg. SO it must have improved over the aeroindia2013 demo in a substantial manner.

So in no way can the initial airframe design can be called draggy.

Also the TWR ratio of LCA with 50 percent fuel is 1.07. Same for F-16 is 1.25. So with even lower thrust to weight ratio than F-16 C/D , LCA has managed to pull closer to the F-16 C/D .

In mk-2 it will only further improve, with weight reduction due to more composite percentage and a 20 percent higher thrust engine in GE F414 IN S 6. Since the length of fuselage is going to be expanded by 0.5 meter only it won't add to much empty weight either.

Also with an empty weight of 8.5 ton F-16 C/D carries 3.1 ton fuel.

LCA mk-1 with it's empty weight of 6.4 tons carries 2.5 ton fuel.SO LCA mk-1 has a close to 10 percent better fuel fraction ratio than the F-16 C/ D. Indicating it won't suffer much in range in an air to air configuration of 2 ton air to air missile load which is it's primary role.

But by having a significantly lower wing loading than the F-16 C/D Tejas mk-1 will have a much better Instantaneous turn Rate than the 26 degree given for F-16 C/ D.

Even the initial ASR given for LCA by MSD Woollen indicates a requirement of 30 deg maximum attainable in the ADA website.

So in the all important high off bore sight WVR missile launching capacity based on Instantaneous Turn Rate , it will be better than the F-16 C/D, just going by the low wing loading factor alone.. But needs citation of course

 

[ersakthivel]

There are additional fuel tanks in Tejas mk-s schematics released by ADA, And there is no need to set aside fuel for higher power engine in cruising range calculation!!!!!

In long range cruise all fighters fly at their optimum fuel consumption consumption speeds.

Since Fuselage dia is going to be increased through out the fuselage length by for higher dia Ge-414 IN S 6 , We should note all the fuel tanks along fuselage will have increased fuel capacity.

And Wing area is also slated to be increased to maintain the same low wing loading. Since Tejas has high wing fuselage blending it will also add more space for fuel storage,

To add to that percentage of composites is slated to increase to 60 percent from the 40 percent for tejas mk-1 . SO there may not be more total weight increase as the higher level of composites will offset the weight increase.

And Since tejas mk-2 has no need to conform to one of the original constraints of mk-1 namely matching it in length to share same hanger space. It frees up tejas designers to arrive at optimum fuselage length for the engine thrust , wave drag and fuel needs .

It is so easy to say that the Tejas mk-2 is what mk-1 should be. But we must bear in mind that when Tejas mk-1 was being developed we were under International sanctions with Nuclear tests. And now GE is offering it's latest 414 version with upper thrust limit of 120 Kn for tejas mk-2. Thats why Tejas mk-2 is a true MMRCA now even though it will have just around 6 ton plus empty weight.

Also for the same cost of one RAAFLE we can have four Tejas mk-2s with 28 pylons allowing for a different combination of weapons .

And not just 28 pylons , we have 4 ASEA radars of the same RAFALE size and four IRST suits and 4 Ew suits if we employ 4 Tejas mk-2 for the cost of one RAFALE all spread out casting a wide net with various seeker shooter combo and radr switch On and Off combinations.

Even if RAFALE has twice the electricity gen onboard not all of it will be reserved for ASEA radar and EW suit. Most of it is needed to operate two huge canards and higher hydraulic demands of bigger control surface actuators.

So if we go for a clear break up of electricity needs , then we can see how just one EW suit consuming X amount of electricity in one RAFALE can score over Y amount of electricity using 4 Ew suits of tejas that are spread out across the sky casting a wider net.

Considering the latest news that PV-1 is being configured for EW role. If one of the four Tejas is configured as EW aircraft then the 1 EW Tejas mk-2 and 3 tejas mk-2 combo will have enormous advantage over any other group of fighters for the same price,

Other than the two outer wing pylons of Tejas which are rated for around 200 Kg all other pylons are rated for 800plus Kg .

 

[ersakthivel]

EMPTY WEIGHT OF TEJAS ( Target Weight was around 6 ton and not 5.5 ton )

TD-1 ------ 6,780 kg with Flight Test Instrumentation
TD-2 ------ 6,670 kg with Flight Test Instrumentation
PV-1 ------- 6,430kg (reduced 350kg of weight)

the above empty weight of Tejas from the link below which quotes lca-tejas.org - lca-tejas Resources and Information. This website is for sale!

PV-1 had flight testing equipment . according to sources these equipments weigh around 300 KG extra . bu no source for that.

Air Marshal Rajkumar wrote about TD1

"It was therefore not very surprising that the aircraft tipped the scales at 6,780 kg with Flight Test Instrumentation (FTI) against a targeted weight of around 6,300kg. Program managers very wisely decided to launch a weight reduction exercise."

regarding PV-1, he wrote

"The airframe weighed 6,430kg when complete which meant the weight reduction exercise had reduced 350kg of weight, a praise worthy achievement."

.

And further B. Harry whose article Radiance of tejas is considered most accurate says this about weight reduction exercise,
Originally projected to achieve 500 KG weight reduction from TD-1's 6780 KG. the designers finally achieved 746 Kg of reduction on PV-1, So it takes the PV-1 weight to around 6 tons. PV-1 still has flight test equipment on board,

Further weight reduction from PV-1 onwards is proposed to be achieved by reducing the number of LRUs by combining many functions into one and removal of telemetry equipment,

And it said that further design optimization was on to reduce the weight of the metal parts further, and it will reach the 5.5 ton empty weight target eventually for Mk-1 is what he says,

Further the Cemilac also issued weight reduction advices with replacing few engine mountings with composites and many other measures,

So if we get the final weight of SP-1 we will see clarity on the issue,

And with further weight optimization tejas is supposed to lift 4 ton external load with 12.5 ton max take off weight and 13.5 ton all up weight is B. harry's statement,

fuel tanks are one 486 KG in front of the plane, 1200 Kg for wing fuel tank, 800 Kg for fuselage fuel tanks totalling 2.5 tons in mk-1

Mtow 12.5 ton with 4 ton weapon load means 12.5-4=8.5 tons-2.5 tons for fuel=6 tons empty weight,

This is what i read somewhere about weight reduction in LSP-7 and 8, forgot the link,

the removal of on-board telemetry instrumentation has reduced the 'Tejas' Mk1 LSP-7's weight by 400kg.

Secondly, by re-engineering l of the cockpit-mounted AMLCDs and related sub-systems, 300kg weight in reduced in on LSP-8. if any one has more info they can please post,

And considering the Leh take off of LCA with two heavy external fuel tanks in under 12 seconds (at higher altitudes it is tough to lift heavy weight) it is possible it can carry 4 ton external stores with 12.5 ton MTOW and 13.5 ton all up weight.

So with a new fuel tank in the extended fuselage plug in front and extra volumes on the center line fuselage tank and substantially large capacity owing to increased wing area due to the need to have the same wing loading will lead to all around fuel weight increase in mk-2 ,


With percentage of composites slated to go up from the present 45 percent in weight to 60 percent in weight in mk-2 there may not be much weight increase is what the designers say. And still further weight reduction exercises are in progress for mk-2.

So we can expect mk-2 to have a much better fuel fraction than mk-1 .

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/vi...bc6740bcfbbd541ea14489d54&start=1920#p1408769

- He was full of praise for the handling of the Tejas. It's a true delight to fly and both he and Grp Cpt Suneet Krishna have tremendous confidence in the aircraft itself. He said that they both push the aircraft to its current limits without any worry since the FCS is very good. He did mention that they didn't push the Tejas Mk1 to its limits at the airshow but just wanted to display that it is maneuverable enough.

that tejas mk-1 LSPs( up to 5) were never ever pushed to even their opened flight envelope limits of 22 aoa and 6G limit, that too with 400 Kg testing equipment on board in any aeroindia display, giving it a vertcal sustained turn rate of 18 deg per second ,

in HOT INDIAN CLIMATIC conditions not clod weather conditions in most foreign airshows which delivers more engine thrust. hot conditions simply sap the peak engine power

Still tejas mk-1 under these partial capability conditions did a vertical loop in 20 seconds . RAFALE in it's indian display has also completed a vertical loop in the same no of seconds,

This 18 deg ASR was the original ASR given by IAF for full 9G load and just 5.5 ton empty weight along with 12 ton MTOW,

Now in Aeroindia 2013 the Tejas mk-1 which weighs much more than the original 5.5 ton weight and with extra 400 Kg of testing equipment on board , well within the partially opened flight envelope limits of 6G and 22 AOA pulled the vertcal sustained turn rate of 18 deg per second . It's Horizontal STR needs some improvement.

After that Aero India LSP 7 and 8 with auxillary intake and many performance improving and weight saving suggestions implemented by ADA according to CEMILAC suggestions have flown .

The only statement that came after their flights were ,"Tejas has cleared all IAF expectations in close combat specs " from an IDRW article and nothing else. Now no one talks about watered down specs or shortage of close combat performance any more.

The design AOA limitations of tejas was close to 35 deg according to B Harry's fact file article Radiance of tejas . How much was reached is still not disclosed,

Also B Harry's fact file article Radiance of tejas explicitly states that Tejas fuselage follows area rule for minimizing super sonic drag

 

[SajeevJino]

can you post the correct load out picture?

can you clarify what are the weight limitations of the six pylons on the wing and and the center line pylon?

Sure once I will be there in my home I will do it and Post it here

SO I found it, Actually I was searching for this picture and mistakenly found the one above,

I hope tejas mk2 with much higher weapon load will have a center line station to carry 1.5 ton weight, In fact it is possible to design tejas mk2 with a center line pylon and two inner wing pylon capable of carrying 1.5 ton loads, I think.

.

So far Yes the above Picture is True pylon capability of LCA I believe

But Tejas can't lift full load on his entire Pylons .Correct or not

 

[ersakthivel]

A lot more info here,

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...arat-karnad-stop-wasteful-military-deals.html

 

[ersakthivel]

Sure once I will be there in my home I will do it and Post it here




So far Yes the above Picture is True pylon capability of LCA I believe

But Tejas can't lift full load on his entire Pylons .Correct or not

No fighter can fully lift the total combined loads that can be carried on all pylons is my idea.

Right now it can lift 3.5 tons. And there is some 400 kg of testing equipment still included in empty weight .

But with 5 ton weapon capability being planned for tejas mk2 with the same 7 hard points , 1.5 ton can be loaded on at least one pylon is my opinion.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

lol.... Brahmos will be carried by tejas. There are two air launched brahmos . 1 is weight reduction in land launched one and other is total new which will be carried by tejas.

 

[Anony86]

By knowing the specs of the system and the technology used.

So please tell me what you know about Meteor system and technology? It is at the same level of development as Astra mk2. Not yet tested. Plan to get inducted in French Air Force in 2018. Can easily get delayed by 2-4 years. So IAF may not get the missile before 2025 or so. France and other developing partners will induct the missile in quantity before giving a chance to IAF. Even 2025 by that regards is a very optimistic timeline, it may be 2028-2030.

Moreover if we can detect adversary fighter from 150km range only, why the hell we need a range of 300km.In India's context, our adversary are our neighbour, so 100km BVR missiles are more than enough. Adding to that, BVR engagement are not even 10% success, and more we try to increase the range, the lesser will be it's success rate. One unit of meteor will cost approaximately $2.5 million as in the year 2003 it was expected to cost atleast $1.5 million. Hell lot costly.

Astra will be used a BVR missile. R73 will be used as WVR missile for LCA. Astra cannot be used as WVR missile, its too heavy to be used as one.

From where have you earned the above mentioned knowledge. Astra cant be used when the fighters are in a dogfight or engagement is at very less distance of a few km. And also that Astra will have two versions, mk1 & mk2, will have to wait & see the reasons behind these two developments.

Astra 2 will be inducted after many years, and still won't come with Ramjet propulsion.

No one needs a Ramjet propulsion engine when maximum required distance of engagement is 100km. IAF will not receive Meteor before 2025, probably will recieve after 2028. And Astra mk2 will be ready for induction by 2020.

No it can't. Tejas doesn't have a pylon to support a 3 tonne missile. Anyways, the air launched Brahmos carried by MKI will weigh 2.5 tonnes and the lighter version carried by MMRCA and Mig29 will weight 1.5 tonnes. Tejas doesn't have a pylon to support even 1.5 tonnes.

Brahmos -M will weigh 1.5 ton. Currently the maximum weight which Tejas in mk1 can carry at its center pylon is 1.2 ton. Thus there is no reason not to believe that Tejas mk2 will have the capability to carry 1.5 ton payload at its center pylon.


And for very long range engagement India is developing KS-172 jointly with Russia since 2005.

 

[Defcon 1]

It is at the same level of development as Astra mk2. Not yet tested.

Wrong. Meteor has been tested lot of times. Here is the video, gratify yourself

Can easily get delayed by 2-4 years. So IAF may not get the missile before 2025 or so.

Same goes for Astra II

Even 2025 by that regards is a very optimistic timeline, it may be 2028-2030.

Yes, even after factoring in a 4 year delay, you are still calling it optimistic. There is no cure if your mind is biased.

Moreover if we can detect adversary fighter from 150km range only, why the hell we need a range of 300km.

Where did you find out the detection range of Rafale? Do you know the estimated RCS of Chinese J11s. They will be detected from long ways ago.

Adding to that, BVR engagement are not even 10% success, and more we try to increase the range, the lesser will be it's success rate.

Wrong. BVR Pk has already crossed 40% in recent wars and it is continuously increasing

One unit of meteor will cost approaximately $2.5 million as in the year 2003 it was expected to cost atleast $1.5 million. Hell lot costly.

Thats old news. Newer sources have estimated costs at 1 million Euro
MBDA Meteor Missiles for French Rafales: Armed Forces Int. News

From where have you earned the above mentioned knowledge. Astra cant be used when the fighters are in a dogfight or engagement is at very less distance of a few km.

The outermost pylons of LCA carry 150 kg. Astra mk1 weighs 154 kg. Simple common sense. Also Using Astra as a WVR missile will remove the option of using a IR guided missile. Add to that the fact we don't know its FOV, so we can't predict whether it will have HOBS if used in WVR.

No one needs a Ramjet propulsion engine when maximum required distance of engagement is 100km.

Everyone and their father needs Ramjet at BVR, be it 100 km or 300. The reason is superior kill probability of Ramjet as it can sustain burn even during the endgame. it is superior to dual pulse as well due to reduced G values needed during the endgame.

IAF will not receive Meteor before 2025, probably will recieve after 2028. And Astra mk2 will be ready for induction by 2020.

Who told you that?

Currently the maximum weight which Tejas in mk1 can carry at its center pylon is 1.2 ton. Thus there is no reason not to believe that Tejas mk2 will have the capability to carry 1.5 ton payload at its center pylon.

Wrong. The capacity of center pylon is 725 litres. The capacity of innerwing pylons is actually 1200 ltrs, not 1.2 ton. The people who made pics of LCA with 1.2 ton inner pylons mistakenly converted ltrs to kgs. Multiply it by specific gravity of fuel and you will get approximate capacity in weight, which is lesser than 1.2 tonnes. Note that Tejas hasn't been tested with 1000 kg bombs. Anyways, Brahmos guys have said which aircraft they plan to integrate Brahmos-M on. Tejas doesn't figure among them.

I might add one thing. That 300 km range is its maximum range, operational range will be much lesser, however it will still be greater than contemporary BVR missiles. Meteor sits between modern BVR missiles and AWACS killers such as Novator.

 

[ersakthivel]

Wrong. Meteor has been tested lot of times. Here is the video, gratify yourself

Astra too has successfully hit live targets many times from ground launches ,and after monsoon air to air astra shots will aim at live targets.

Same goes for Astra II


Yes, even after factoring in a 4 year delay, you are still calling it optimistic. There is no cure if your mind is biased.


Where did you find out the detection range of Rafale? Do you know the estimated RCS of Chinese J11s. They will be detected from long ways ago.

rafale has the smallest radar of all modern 4.5th gen fighters. Its radar is smaller than tejas and gripen.

Wrong. BVR Pk has already crossed 40% in recent wars and it is continuously increasing

That is for non manuovering , next to nothing EW suit equipped fighters.
new high ITR fighters (with low wing loading and high TWR) are designed to outfly them and , they all have far better ew suits alos.

So these 40 pk does not apply here.

And it is the high numner of cost effective 4.5th gen fighters with adequate EW support that determines who win the WVR engagement once this dubious BVR engagements are over.

Thats old news. Newer sources have estimated costs at 1 million Euro
MBDA Meteor Missiles for French Rafales: Armed Forces Int. News


The outermost pylons of LCA carry 150 kg. Astra mk1 weighs 154 kg. Simple common sense. Also Using Astra as a WVR missile will remove the option of using a IR guided missile. Add to that the fact we don't know its FOV, so we can't predict whether it will have HOBS if used in WVR.

tejas mk2 will have uniform weight increase across all pylons . SO any combo of missiles is possible.

Everyone and their father needs Ramjet at BVR, be it 100 km or 300. The reason is superior kill probability of Ramjet as it can sustain burn even during the endgame. it is superior to dual pulse as well due to reduced G values needed during the endgame.

India already has the ramjet tech in akash. And even our Akash is designed to burn during end game .

Who told you that?


Wrong. The capacity of center pylon is 725 litres. The capacity of innerwing pylons is actually 1200 ltrs, not 1.2 ton. The people who made pics of LCA with 1.2 ton inner pylons mistakenly converted ltrs to kgs. Multiply it by specific gravity of fuel and you will get approximate capacity in weight, which is lesser than 1.2 tonnes. Note that Tejas hasn't been tested with 1000 kg bombs. Anyways, Brahmos guys have said which aircraft they plan to integrate Brahmos-M on. Tejas doesn't figure among them.

This is absolute stupid calculation.

You are simply fooling yourself with liter of fuel carried in the center line pylon drop tank and simply taking it as its weight capacity.

You have as usual in your own crappy way forgot to include the weight of the center line fuel tank.

So this interpretation of your is as usual false like every other info about tejas you have put out here.

And are you still clinging to the notion that , navy which is spearheading tejas mk2 development wont make provision for Lighter brahmos version to be carried on its center pylon?

I might add one thing. That 300 km range is its maximum range, operational range will be much lesser, however it will still be greater than contemporary BVR missiles. Meteor sits between modern BVR missiles and AWACS killers such as Novator.

same theory applies for meteor ranges also.

Please give us a pylon wise break up of the 3.5 ton external weapon load that can be carried on tejas mk1 on the following picture, if you are so sure that center line pylon can't support 1.2 tons .

then we will all know it.

If we use your 750 kg logic for center pylon and same 750 Kg load capacity for pylons number 4 and 5. The total weight carrying capacity of pylons 3,4,5 comes to around 2150 Kgs.

Pylons 1 and 6 can carry no more than 300 Kg.

So pylons 1,3,4,5,6 ,8 can carry a total of 2650 Kg.

then how much can be carried by pylons 2 and 6?

There is only 1 ton left if we deduct 2650 Kg from the max external weapon load of 3.5 tons.

So logically they cant carry more than 450 Kg each as per your logic .

Are you ready to stand by your logic and claim this is the correct weight capacity of pylons?

if you have any source to back this claim please post.

The capacity of innerwing pylons is actually 1200 ltrs, not 1.2 ton. The people who made pics of LCA with 1.2 ton inner pylons mistakenly converted ltrs to kgs. Multiply it by specific gravity of fuel and you will get approximate capacity in weight, which is lesser than 1.2 tonnes

why dont you do the calculation yourself and give us the result?

guides first get an idea about the weight of the centerline fuel tank that will carry those 1200 litres.

multiply the 1200 litres with the specific gravity,

then add the weight with center line fuel tank weight .

And give us a total wieght carrying capacity of centerline pylon.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The above is pylon capacity, The tanks are of 800kgs, Bombs are 1000lb laser guided ..

This does not mean Tejas cannot carry such payloads..

So far Yes the above Picture is True pylon capability of LCA I believe

But Tejas can't lift full load on his entire Pylons .Correct or not

can you post the correct load out picture?

can you clarify what are the weight limitations of the six pylons on the wing and and the center line pylon?

Sure once I will be there in my home I will do it and Post it here


SO I found it, Actually I was searching for this picture and mistakenly found the one above,

 

[Anony86]

Wrong. Meteor has been tested lot of times. Here is the video, gratify yourself

Same goes for Astra II

Video is not a valid source. No one knows which missile that is. Give a valid source. And even if true it shows just the detachment. Astra mk1 detachment with Su-30mki is also over. Astra has also done ground trials and interception when fired from ground. Astra mk2 will just be an upgrade and will not take that much time that new missile will take as all the system is tested in mk1 itself.

Yes, even after factoring in a 4 year delay, you are still calling it optimistic. There is no cure if your mind is biased.

4 year delay makes the induction date to 2022 and I am adding another six years for it to be available for IAF, as there are 5-6 different air forces whose orders need to be fulfilled first which is not at all pessimistic analysis.

Where did you find out the detection range of Rafale? Do you know the estimated RCS of Chinese J11s. They will be detected from long ways ago.

Please first give the radar range of Rafale.

Secondly you wanna say that J-11 will fly from Beijing to engage Rafale. I am talking about real time war scenario. If Rafale is used for interception in war, then the engagement range will be less than 100km and if any fighter in air comes to intercept Rafale, again the engagement range will be less than 100km. The above explanation is for Indian context and please don't come up with USA and Russia and China thing. Thus no place to use Meteor only if we need to engage AEW&C of our adversaries. And for this KS-172 Novator is in development.

Wrong. BVR Pk has already crossed 40% in recent wars and it is continuously increasing

Please provide the source and dont give the link from US wars against 3rd world countries like Iraq or Libya or figures of those non-maneuvering targets with no EW suites.

Thats old news. Newer sources have estimated costs at 1 million Euro
MBDA Meteor Missiles for French Rafales: Armed Forces Int. News

No one has re-evaluated the cost. 1 million euro is the same old figure. Just because the article is written in 2011, that does not mean the figure is estimated in 2011and its clearly written the cost was anticipated to be 1 million euro. And when a full decade is left for it to come, assuming 70% rise in cost is quite relevant. And also from the article it is mentioned that range of Meteor will exceed 100km which means it will be most probably 110-120 km in range.

The outermost pylons of LCA carry 150 kg. Astra mk1 weighs 154 kg. Simple common sense. Also Using Astra as a WVR missile will remove the option of using a IR guided missile. Add to that the fact we don't know its FOV, so we can't predict whether it will have HOBS if used in WVR.

Did any official told you in person that outer most pylon can carry max 150kg and not a single kilo more. It is a standard way to write. It can easily carry missile of 160 kg as well. Why the hell it will remove IR guided missile option. There are two version of Astra and there is also possibility of a dual seeker. I am not saying that Astra will surely be used as WVR missile as well but only suggesting that if required it can be. May be some modification will be required in future date, but that something which can be done in a year or two.

Who told you that?

Told me what? Induction date of Astra mk2 ? Well it was claimed by DRDO sources that Astra mk1 will be ready for induction by 2015 end or early 2016. And that it is showing progress, thus the tentative date of induction seems to be true. So 4 years after that for Astra mk2 is quite a acceptable timeline considering it will be the same platform just with little enhance in range. And surely DRDO will be working on it now as well.

Wrong. The capacity of center pylon is 725 litres. The capacity of innerwing pylons is actually 1200 ltrs, not 1.2 ton. The people who made pics of LCA with 1.2 ton inner pylons mistakenly converted ltrs to kgs. Multiply it by specific gravity of fuel and you will get approximate capacity in weight, which is lesser than 1.2 tonnes. Note that Tejas hasn't been tested with 1000 kg bombs. Anyways, Brahmos guys have said which aircraft they plan to integrate Brahmos-M on. Tejas doesn't figure among them.

Please educate yourself, It can carry 1.2 ton and there is no reason why mk2 will not able to carry 1.5 ton. One just need to strengthen the carriage. And also that Tejas mk2 will able to carry 5.3 ton payload, expecting innerwing pylon to carry 30% of the total payload weight is very very safe assumption. Brahmos guys have mentioned all those aircraft which can carry 1.5 ton of payload and that Tejas mk2 will be able to carry 1.5 ton weight under its belly was surely not mentioned to them.

Though there is a high chance that IAF may not want Tejas to have Brahmos platform when they will have 270 Su-30mki for this role which will able to carry 3 Brahmos-M under it's belly.

I might add one thing. That 300 km range is its maximum range, operational range will be much lesser, however it will still be greater than contemporary BVR missiles. Meteor sits between modern BVR missiles and AWACS killers such as Novator.

In two different article published on Meteor in recent days, both have defined Meteor as 100+ km missile. Thus it will be in between 100km - 120km range, which even I agree which is completely different from a article released in 2007 or 2008 where they said close to 200km.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

there are 2 teams working seperately on Astra 1 and Astra2

the delay of astra1 has allowed astra2 team to catch up

astra2 is slated for ground trials before this year end

 

[power_monger]

Defcon 1,
Like i said, meteor is uber costly.its a joint development by multiple european countries and Development is expected to be completed by 2018 only. Then mass manufacturing,inital suply to the developed countries and other delays will definatly push meteor to india by 2022. And more over Meteor can be brought off shelf and integrated to any fighter,we dont require a raffale for it. Sources from DRDO are all upbeat about Astra and say Astra 1 is definate to get Inducted by end of 2015 or Start of 2016. I think by 2020,IAF will have inducted even Astr2 with a range of 150kms which i believe is more than enough.

 

[Zebra]

Gripen Closes In On Operational Meteor Capability

7 July 2014

Defence and security company Saab and FMV have concluded missile integration firings with Gripen and the MBDA Meteor BVRAAM (Beyond Visual-Range Air-to-Air Missile). These latest firings, conducted earlier this year, further verified missile integration with Gripen and validated seeker performance and missile range. This was the last major trials task required to clear the new missile for operational service on the Gripen C/D multi-role fighter. Full Meteor capability will be delivered as part of Gripen's latest MS20 (Materiel System 20) combat systems update for the Swedish Air Force. Once MS20 has been cleared for service Sweden, and Gripen, will have the world's first and only functional Meteor BVRAAM capability.

When MS20 enters service in 2015 Gripen will be the first platform with an operationally effective Meteor capability