ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[ersakthivel]

actually the first HAL's Jaguar with Darin III upgrade is a Jaguar IM which took the Maiden Flight on Nov 28 2012...It has the rardar already for decade...so such News report mentioned radar is just OK for IMs.

It might be early to say ISs and ITs will have the radar after Darin III upgrades ...and I doubt that IAF will buy around 90 sets of new radar for IS and IT, many source didn't mention the radar issue before this November. but it was reported that IS might have EL/M-20600 radar targetting pod.

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tail number JM255....it's one of the 10 IMs

whatever be the radar will it be able to detect and track at 120 km range like the radar or LSP-3 does as per vayu article?
There is no way that the man who wrote the article ontejas in flight global could have not known the radar spec for TEJAs and it's vast superiority over any radar on the very small radome dia of jaguar.
What will be the power output for the radar from 64 kn engine thrust of jaguar?
So under which premises the man made the conclusion that tejas wont see combat while jags will be used in front line ?
Jaguar has been retired all over the western airforces long ago.

And to say that relaxed static stability fly by wire TEJAS ( with a TWR 1.07,, along with derby,astra and meteor missile,4 ton external stores )will be relegated to non combat area while 64 kn engine thrust ,2 ton external stores conventional stable flight configuration platform like jaguar will lead the fight in the front line is nothing but reporting with vested interest.

An earlier article in the same magazine also reported that the upgraded mig-21 bison is 4++ gen and more potent than the teajs in another dumb ass piece that too in 2009 when the LSP-3 with 120 km range detection and tracking range radar already flying.

If flying fossils like JAGs and MIG-21 becomes so potent after a few upgrades with measly TWR ,puny external stores capacity ,and no relaxed static stabilty tech ,then why the shit does the mag gets so condescending on TEJAS?
ANy kind of engine upgrades tejas mk-1 can get in it's lifetime will lift it close to the level of mk-2 in flight ceiling and and top speeds at service ceiling all thw while improving it's STR and AOA significantly.
Then why such defamatory pieces on tejas gets written again and again by so called defence journos.

We can understand easily if some bud heads ranting in forums that tejas is obsolete as they have no knowledge of such things. But even so called defence JOURNOs write very colorful pieces like this.

 

[ersakthivel]

The F-16 was the first production fighter aircraft intentionally designed to be slightly aerodynamically unstable, also known as "relaxed static stability" (RSS), to improve maneuverability. Most aircraft are designed with positive static stability, which induces aircraft to return to straight and level flight attitude if the pilot releases the controls. This reduces maneuverability as the aircraft must overcome its inherent stability in order to maneuver. Aircraft with negative stability are designed to deviate from controlled flight and thus be more maneuverable. At supersonic speeds the F-16 gains stability (eventually positive) due to changes in aerodynamic forces.


To counter the tendency to depart from controlled flight—and avoid the need for constant trim inputs by the pilot, the F-16 has a quadruplex (four-channel) fly-by-wire (FBW) flight control system (FLCS). The flight control computer (FLCC) accepts pilot input from the stick and rudder controls, and manipulates the control surfaces in such a way as to produce the desired result without inducing control loss. The FLCC conducts thousands of measurements per second on the aircraft's flight attitude to automatically counter deviations from the pilot-set flight path; leading to a common aphorism among pilots: "You don't fly an F-16; it flies you."

The FLCC further incorporates limiters that govern movement in the three main axes based on current attitude, airspeed and angle of attack (AOA), and prevent control surfaces from inducing instability such as slips or skids, or a high AOA inducing a stall. The limiters also prevent maneuvers that would exert more than a 9 g load.

Although each axis of movement is limited by the FLCC, flight testing revealed that "assaulting" multiple limiters at high AOA and low speed can result in an AOA far exceeding the 25° limit; colloquially referred to as "departing". This causes a deep stall; a near-freefall at 50° to 60° AOA, either upright or inverted. While at a very high AOA, the aircraft's attitude is stable but control surfaces are ineffective and the aircraft's pitch limiter locks the stabilators at an extreme pitch-up or pitch-down attempting to recover; the pitch-limiting can be overridden so the pilot can "rock" the nose via pitch control to recover.

Unlike the YF-17, which had hydromechanical controls serving as a backup to the FBW, Grumman took the innovative step of eliminating mechanical linkages between the stick and rudder pedals and the aerodynamic control surfaces. The F-16 is entirely reliant on its electrical systems to relay flight commands, instead of traditional mechanically-linked controls, leading to the early moniker of "the electric jet". The quadruplex design permits "graceful degradation" in flight control response in that the loss of one channel renders the FLCS a "triplex" system.

The FLCC began as an analog system on the A/B variants, but has been supplanted by a digital computer system beginning with the F-16C/D Block .

So this complex fly by wire system which dramatically improves the maneuverabiltiy of the fighter is not there in any other IAf craft in service except MIRAGE and SUKHOI.

Tejas is the next one going to have it.That's the reason testing has been excruciatingly slow.

So harping on topspeeds at service ceiling as the lone indicator of fighter superiority is not evn accepted by IAf.Because IAF indicated it's readiness to accept either RAFALE or TYPHOON after fully evaluating their entire flight profile depending upon the price. That is an undeniable fact.

But the point I wanted to highlight was that RAFALE had lower topspeeds than TYPHOON . Then WHY did the IAF intimated that they can accept any one of them if top speed is so important as it the main stick used to beat tejas on all forums?

Does't the IAF see it fit that a fee extra million dollars per plane is worth it if top speeds are so important?After all Even MIG-21 has higher top speeds than rafale.So why did IAf not consider the top speed so important?


TEJAS mk-1 has been repeatedly criticized in all the forums because of it's design top speed of mach 1.8 at service ceiling,which incidentally is also the same as that of RAFALE.

So what I wanted to stress was that overall flight profile is more important than top speeds at service ceiling.

Because even the swiss airforce arrived at the same conclusion, that is the overall flight profile is more important than topspeeds at service ceiling.And they too gave higher marks to rafale than typhoon in this area , and if it is not for the price they would have chosen RAFALE over grippen .

Close to 90 percent of the time fighters fly at transsonic speeds only(0.8 mach to 1.2 mach,which is what most delta wing forms excel in handling with least drag ) and they accelerate to top speeds only while firing BVRs to add some range .You cannot out run a long range BVR by flying 0.2 mach faster as BVR has a speed of aroung 4 plus mach.

another reason why overall flight profile is prefered over fancy top speed is no fighter can maneuver efficiently at it's top speed. SO if you want to dodge a missile maneuvering with agility takes precedence over fancy top speeds which are not so maneuverable.Also higher STR wont help to dodge a missile because missile has 50 g plus turn specs.

What is more important is higher ITR which help the fighter to try sharp turns to shake off the missile,which is the strong point of low wing loading deltas. But I dont mean to say that by using this tejas will dodge all the missiles and JF-17 wont. It is what today's trend is. That's why you have lower wing loading deltas like typhoon , grippen, rafales are adopting this design.Just compare the wing loading of PAKFA with SU-30 and you will get some idea.


That is where tejas will score over jags and migs , because relaxed static stability fly by wire tech will give tejas a significant edge over there. However much you upgrade them you cannot change it into fully relaxed static stability air frame like tejas.There in lies the modernity of tejas, not just fancy top speeds and higher STRs, which can be improved by having a more powerful engine during first engine change.

That is why the test pilot SUNNET KRISHNA says , "that TEJAS is ours and it is modularly upgradable.

That is why the development validation and testing is taking long while conventional stable air frames like JF-17 was quick off the block.If you compare the time frame of tejas with typhoon and rafale you can notice despite decades of experience these programs too took long time to mature.

Because it is the computer that controls the actuators while taking directions from pilot. So each flight profile must be painstakingly validated because the fly by wire software adjusts control surfaces 10 to 12 times a second.

The fly by wire tech has been exported to airbus industries by india .It's writing ,evaluation,validation , and finessing will take years, for every fighter program,so there is no getting away from it.

Even if you don't take into account ASR spec rivisions that tejas has to undergo , with funding for TD build starting at 1993 to IOC at 2013 it is quite same as typhoon and rafale.Typhoon hasn't been adopted to ground bombing till today.

If you take into account the ASR revisions and US sanctions the tejas development timeframe is not as delayed as many people imply it to be.

further reads on relaxed static stability.

[PDF]
Flying Qualities of Relaxed Static Stability Aircraft - Volume H 833 0 ...
www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA128720File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML

 

[ersakthivel]

The F-15's superior maneuverability and acceleration are achieved through high engine thrust-to-weight ratio and low wing loading. Low wing-loading (the ratio of aircraft weight to its wing area) is a vital factor in maneuverability and, combined with the high thrust-to-weight ratio, enables the aircraft to turn tightly without losing airspeed.

The advantages of an intentionally unstable design over that of a stable arrangement include greater agility – particularly at subsonic speeds - reduced drag, and an overall increase in lift (also enhancing STOL performance).

Weapon and Technology: TOP MODERN FIGHTER PLANES -2011
So low wing loading and high TWR are potent as a combination in a FBW controlled relaxed static stability fighter ,regardless of whether the plane is twin engined or single engined

 

[sasi]

Why two threads running? Mods close one thread.

 

[ersakthivel]

Why two threads running? Mods close one thread.

Sasi this one discusses the additional capabilities on mk-2.And the old one discusses about the basic airframe, performance specs of mk-1,if I am right.

So IMHO it is better to keep these two threads separate , because mk-2 will have higher thrust GE 414 INS6 engines, with 5 ton projected weapon load and mach 2 plus top speeds at higher service ceiling along with improvements in STR, AOA and asea radar.
So it wont be proper for us to discuss those things in older ADA tejas thread.

So it is better to keep them separate so as not to be accused of posting about projections about non existent additional capacity at present for mk-1 .

Because in closed older ADA tejas-III thread someone said there is no point in writing about expected additions on mk-2 as they are not a reality on mk-1 at present because it does not give a factual picture of mk-1 specs.I think it is asianobserve, but not quite sure.

 

[sasi]

Sasi this one discusses the additional capabilities on mk-2.And the old one discusses about the basic airframe, performance specs of mk-1,if I am right.

So IMHO it is better to keep these two threads separate , because mk-2 will have higher thrust GE 414 INS6 engines, with 5 ton projected weapon load and mach 2 plus top speeds at higher service ceiling along with improvements in STR, AOA and asea radar.
So it wont be proper for us to discuss those things in older ADA tejas thread.

So it is better to keep them separate so as not to be accused of posting about projections about non existent additional capacity at present for mk-1 .

Because in closed older ADA tejas-III thread someone said there is no point in writing about expected additions on mk-2 as they are not a reality on mk-1 at present because it does not give a factual picture of mk-1 specs.I think it is asianobserve, but not quite sure.

Okay. I didn't read the title properly.

 

[Crusader53]

With the rapid advance of 5th Generation Fighters. I think the LCA MK2 should be used primarily as an Advance Trainer with a secondary Role of Strike Aircraft. This could be very useful for both the IAF and IN.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You sound like the entire world is using 5th generation where as in reality 5th generation are just coming off and inducting in small numbers, Many 5th generations are still in experimental stages..

If we go with your logic, All other fighters in the world are advance trainer and iirc 98% of the world using 3,4 or 4.5 or 4.5+ generation fighters..

With the rapid advance of 5th Generation Fighters. I think the LCA MK2 should be used primarily as an Advance Trainer with a secondary Role of Strike Aircraft. This could be very useful for both the IAF and IN.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Details On LCA MK2 by ADA :

 

[natarajan]

Atleast it will be able to counter sl airforce

 

[andyfisher]

------------------------ Thanks for your opinion ----------------------------

 

[ersakthivel]

With the rapid advance of 5th Generation Fighters. I think the LCA MK2 should be used primarily as an Advance Trainer with a secondary Role of Strike Aircraft. This could be very useful for both the IAF and IN.

The Hindu : National : The case to support the indigenous LCA programme

You can read the full article regarding the ASR revisions and capabilities of LCA tejas in the above HINDU newspaper link.

for people complaining about lack of mach 2plus speeds on tejas mk-1

another funny ideology I think one should understand that plane cannot attain mach 2 speed every time if it does that it would be through help of after burner the plane would run out of entire fuel stored in it & it would increase plane's IR
signature a lot which would be visible by enemy' IRST like rafale's FSO which is claimed to be capable of detecting IR signatures of plane from 120km .

well it is much better to have super cruise planes which doesnt need after burners to maintain speed which rafale has .If thats
the case then Mirage 2000 which has a top speed well above mach2+ would be superior to F-35 which has mach 1.7 as top speed

 

[ersakthivel]

Boeing's Super Hornet seeks export sale to launch 20% thrust upgrade

The 'enhanced durability engine' becomes the 'enhanced performance engine' when you put the fan on it," Gower said.



The improved thrust would likely be most welcomed among militaries operating in hot weather, which reduces engine performance especially at a takeoff.

Despite the dramatic thrust increase, the EPE would not require enlarging the F/A-18E/F's engine inlets to enable increased air flow, Gower said.

"We are not modifying the mould line of the aircraft," Gower said. "The current inlet gives us enough [air] in-take."

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Jet fuel starter for MK2 >>

 

[ADITYA MAYUKH]

Its going to rock

 

[Sam2012]

I think LCA Mk2 , Rafale(Since contract not signed yet) & FGFA( If thinks go right iwthout delay) will be getting inducted in same time , by that time Mig-21's might have gone for good from service & Mirage-2000 & MIG-29 might have had their upgrade completed or might be still on

So only Su-30MKI , MIG-27 & Jaguar along with LCA Mk1 ( If not further delay) will remain in operational , very grim time for IAF b/n 2014-2020

 

[sasi]

New Delhi, Jan 20 (IANS) India has finalized an agreement for 99 GE 414 engines to power its indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
This is the first, and significant, engine contract for GE Aviation to power fighter jets for India and the LCA will be the first combat aircraft in the inventory of the Indian Air Force (IAF) andIndian Navy with engines from the US. Both services have US-made transport aircraft though and all the three US engine majors, GE, Honeywell and Pratt & Whitney have supplied power units for them.
DRDO Director General (and Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister) V.K. Saraswat told India Strategic (..:: India Strategic ::.. Home Page: The authoritative monthly on Defence and Strategic Affairs.) in aninterview that the agreementwith GE was signed recently, and that he expected the aircraft to be a success for both the IAF and the Indian Navy.
The IAF has used Fairchild Packets in the 1960s, has Lockheed Martin C 130Js nowand is set to get Boeing C 17Globemasters beginning this year. The Navy used the Lockheed Super Constellations for maritime reconnaissance. They are alltransporters.
GE won the contract for its F414-GE-INS6 afterburner turbofan engine in September 2010 with a narrow margin against a competing bid by the European Eurojet EJ 200.
It has taken nearly two years for the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) ofthe Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which had selected the engine, to work out details like how and how much of the engine will be produced in India. A production contract is now being worked our between GE Aviation and HAL, which will manufacture them, in thisregard.
GE, which is already supplying its LM 2500 gas turbine engines for some newer Indian Navy ships, was given the necessary clearance by the US Government. It will supply an initial lot of 18 engines while the remaining will be progressively assembled/ made in India.
Honeywell's F 125N engine was also selected recently toupgrade IAF's Jaguar aircraft, and a production arrangement is now being discussed. This engine will empower the aircraft to fly over high mountains, which at present, the Jaguars cannot do.
Notably, in recent interviews with India Strategic, both IAF chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, and Navy Chief Admiral DK Joshi, have said that they are keenly awaiting the Tejas Mark II, which will be equipped with the GE 414 engine.
HAL is making 20 20 LCAs with the GE 404-GE-F213 afterburner engines for IAF in the first two orders. After that, the plan is to produce around 200 LCAs for both the IAF and Navy with the 414 engine. The naval aircraft will have a strengthened fuselage, wheel base, and a drooping nose to facilitate carrier deck landings.
Under the GE-ADA contract, GE is to supply the latest version of the 414 engine beginning 2014, with improved Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC), single Crystal bladedesign, single engine safety features, and other electronic advances. The basic engine design, as it is used now for instance on theUS Navy's F/A 18 E/F Super Hornets, would stay the same but as new innovationsare developed and adopted, they would also be passed on to India.
GE won a $5.3 billion US Navy order for the same engine for powering 66 twin-engine F/A 18 E/F Super Hornets and 58 E/A 18G Growler electronic attackaircraft in 2010. And the US Navy's F 18 Hornet and Super Hornet aircraft built byBoeing have done more thana million hours on GE's 404 and 414 engines.
GE's India President and CEOJohn Flannery had earlier described the selected F414 engine as "the highest-ratedF414 model" and said that it includes "state-of-the-art technology to meet India's demanding Air Force and Naval requirements."
Details of the exact costs ofADA/HAL-GE arrangement arenot known but an unconfirmed tender bid figure was mentioned at $ 822 million.
Saraswat said that DRDO and its agencies were keen to acquire total indigenous capability in engine design, and that a good measure has been achieved in this regard.
Notably, DRDO's Kaveri engine was initially selected to power the LCA but it has not been able to achieve more that 80 kilo newtons thrust as against the requirement of 95 to 100 kilonewtons asked by both the IAF and Navy.
Kaveri will now power DRDO's unmanned strike air vehicle (USAV). Both the LCA and USAV though will be extensively made of light weight composite materials. The weapon package on board the USAV is not knownand the project itself was disclosed only in December 2012 by Defence Minister AK Antony who told parliament that the "Kaveri spin-off engine can be used as a propulsion system for the Indian Unmanned Strike Air Vehicle."
The Indian Air Force wants to acquire long range unmanned aircraft. Kaveri, which has had some contribution from the French Safran/ Snecma in its development process, is the basic building block from which DRDO can move furtherup.
DRDO is also in talks with Boeing to acquire an aircraft testing wind tunnel, talks forwhich are still going on, according to Saraswat.

 

[sasi]

Link~Agreement finalized for US engines for indigenous Indian fighter jet

 

[Anoop Sajwan]

I think LCA Mk2 , Rafale(Since contract not signed yet) & FGFA( If thinks go right iwthout delay) will be getting inducted in same time , by that time Mig-21's might have gone for good from service & Mirage-2000 & MIG-29 might have had their upgrade completed or might be still on

So only Su-30MKI , MIG-27 & Jaguar along with LCA Mk1 ( If not further delay) will remain in operational , very grim time for IAF b/n 2014-2020

mig27 will also retired by 2017 & bisons will operational even upto 2020.

 

[ADITYA MAYUKH]

Lca mk 2 is going to production in 2017 so no need to worry