ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Kunal Biswas]

MBDA Meteor Promo

 

[ersakthivel]

A high-level HAL team is touring the production facilities of the world's three biggest fighter manufacturers — Boeing and Lockheed Martin in the US; and Eurofighter in Europe — to examine how Tejas' production can be raised from the eight fighters per year that HAL's Tejas production line in Bangalore will start building next year. The IAF will eventually need 120-140 Tejas, while the Navy will require another 20-40 fighters.

The DRDO aeronautics chief, Prahlada, who also oversees ADA, told Business Standard, "We have asked HAL to find a way to step up Tejas production. They should look for alternatives, like more outsourcing, or setting up joint ventures [to build sub-systems of the Tejas]. This will also help HAL to grow. But each agency knows its own problems best"¦ only they know where the shoe pinches! So, HAL knows best how to fix their problem."
HAL, however, blames the slow production of Tejas fighters on the IAF's placement of piecemeal orders. "We are also responsible to our shareholders. With an initial order for just 20 Tejas fighters, how much money could we have realistically invested in a production line?" asks P Soundara Rajan, HAL's director, corporate planning and marketing. "So far, future Tejas orders of 100-120 more fighters are only plans. When an order is actually placed, we will be justified in upgrading our production line to produce more aircraft. Outsourcing to industry is something that we are already doing."

it seems the blame game has begun already.

Hal will be overburdened with RAFALE ,SUKHOI,ALH and in future PAKFA orders.It also has to support and produce spares for all the russain aircrafts in IAF like mig-29.
It will be good if another company separate from HAL with ADA as it's part will be set up to produce indigenous fighters alone.Even the chinese have two fighter production cos.

So at the end of the day some accountability is fixed on somebody for deadline.IAF blames HAL, ADA blame HAL, HAl blame IAf for piecemeal orders is not motivating stuff to read.

 

[ersakthivel]

http://www.lca-tejas.org/engine.html

The details of mk-1 engines in limited sereis production and serial production are in the above site.
Quote from the above website.

F404-GE-IN20 To Power Tejas Mk-1

In early July 2002 orders for the 8 Limited Series Production (LSP) was given to HAL and Funds were released to set up a Assembly Line for them, Second round of Negotiation With GE started for the F-404 Engines and GE offered more improved Variant of F-404 which is known has F404-GE-IN20, this engine included features such has advanced Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC), Higher MTBO and Better Thrust. ADA awarded General Electric a $105 million contract in February 2004 for development engineering and production of 17 F404-GE-IN20 engines. ADA took delivery of its first -IN20 engines in 2007. These engines will be used to power low rate (also called limited) production Tejas/LCA aircraft and first two operational Squadrons of Tejas in IAF
Specifications

Dimensions: Diameter 890 mm, Length 3.9 m

Weights: Max Weight 1,035 kg (2,282 lb)

Engine/s Performance: Thrust 20,200 lb (9,163 kg)

The LSP engines for tejas---- ------------F404-GE-402---------------Thrust------------17,700 lbf (78.7 kN) with afterburner.
Tejas SP engines tejas-mk-1 -------------F404-GE-IN20 -------------Thrust ----------20,200 lb (9,163 kg)

So the SP versions of tejas --mk-1(which is ordered by IAF) will have a bit higher thrust versions than the LSP version of mk-1.

So achieving higher top speeds at service ceiling and sea level and higher AOA will be possible coupled with auxilary airintake or redesigned air intake

 

[Kunal Biswas]

it seems the blame game has begun already..

 

[shiphone]

there were two batchs of F404-GE-IN20 engines delivered... one 17 sets contract was signed in 2004 which is for LSPs and NPs, another 24 were ordered in 2007 for the first batch of SPs

actually the LCA LSP2 was the first bird with so called much powerful F404-GE-IN20 engine(you could look back for the news about LSP2's maiden flight in 2008)...and all following LSPs(except the LSP1 ) and PV5, NP1 are using the same engine ...the F404 In20 could generate more than 19,000 pounds (85 kN) thrust.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Regarding IRST :

May be the end product mix of two or direct input..

Time will tell..

"We will work with a foreign consultant in order to avoid the mistakes that other aerospace designers have earlier made. We are talking to Saab (of Sweden), to Cassidian (the European consortium) and to other vendors. We should have a decision by mid-2013," says Subramanyam.

 

[ersakthivel]

there were two batchs of F404-GE-IN20 engines delivered... one 17 sets contract was signed in 2004 which is for LSPs and NPs, another 24 were ordered in 2007 for the first batch of SPs

actually the LCA LSP2 was the first bird with so called much powerful F404-GE-IN20 engine(you could look back for the news about LSP2's maiden flight in 2008)...and all following LSPs(except the LSP1 ) and PV5, NP1 are using the same engine ...the F404 In20 could generate more than 19,000 pounds (85 kN) thrust.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/tejas/

Of course you are right .

It was a mistake on my part to say that LSPs are flying with lower powered f-404 engines.

The prototype development aircraft are fitted with General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 turbofan engines with afterburn. Production aircraft will be fitted with one General Electric 85kN F404-GE-IN20 turbofan engine with full authority digital engine control. HAL placed an order for 24 F404-GE-IN20 engines in February 2007.
"Tejas, the smallest lightweight, multirole, single-engined tactical fighter aircraft in the world, is being developed as a single seat fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force."

LSP-2 (limited series production 2) is the first aircraft to be fitted with the engine. Flight trials with the production engine began in June 2008.

 

[ersakthivel]

" India's self-developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be based at the IAF's brand new forward-operating base at Phalodi in Rajasthan. Medium-lift choppers, Mi-17s will also be stationed at the base which will be 102 km from the India-Pakistan border, said sources.

Uniquely, the new air base that was inaugurated four days ago is the first forward-operating airbase to be commissioned by the IAF in more than two decades. The first lot of the LCA -- a squadron of 20 aircraft -- is scheduled to be handed over to the IAF in 11 months from now. The second squadron will follow a year later -- both are being built at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) unit at Bangalore. Once handed over to the IAF, the LCA's first base, briefly, will be at a station in South India, from where the fighters will move in batches to Phalodi, the sources said. Moving planes in small batches is a normal IAF procedure. Phalodi has the capacity to handle other aircraft besides deep penetration radars.

Defence Minister A K Antony had told Parliament last month that the first lot of the LCA would be delivered in March 2011. The Air Force is likely to accord 'initial operational clearance' by the end of this year.

Phalodi is the sixth IAF base in Rajasthan. It is located almost equidistant from the three existing IAF bases at Jaisalmer, Jodhpur and Nal (Bikaner). The IAF has two others bases in Rajasthan -- Suratgarh and Uttarlai (Barmer). Across the border opposite Phalodi are two major Pakistani military bases in Bahawalpur and Rahimyar Khan.

So tejas will be deployed on the indo-pak border apart from sulur in TN.

 

[ersakthivel]

Airframe Modifications : To accommodate the slightly bigger engine. The fuselage has been extended by 500mm.

Higher Thrust Engine ( GE F414-GE-INS6 Variant 98 kN up from 85kN)
* Structural Weight Reduction
* Aerodynamic Improvements (5 % larger Air Intakes)
* Upgrade of Flight Control Computer
* Electronic Warfare Suite (Indo-Israeli "Mayavi Suite")
* Avionics Upgrade (New Pilot layout)
* In flight refuelling retractable probe ( MK-1 will have "Fixed" In flight refuelling probe )
* On board oxygen generation system (Already developed and certified)
* Increased fuel capacity. ( Due to Lengthened Fuselage)
External stores capacity will be boosted to 5,700kg (as opposed to 3,500kg for the Tejas Mk1)

http://www.flightglobal.com/features/Aero-India-special/Dawn-of-Tejas/

Despite its critics, who generally condemn Tejas as being behind schedule, overweight and inferior to similar light fighters produced elsewhere, the programme is arguably not so much about producing a world-beating light fighter aircraft, but building a foundation of learning for future projects. This suggests Tejas is just a single step on a decades-long journey to a globally competitive Indian defence aerospace industry.

SOBERING FACT

When presented with this idea, one critic likens it to "making a virtue out of a necessity". Another points to the sobering fact that, ultimately, combat aircraft are for fighting in wars. If the Tejas is, as many suspect, an inferior combat platform, the fact that the project has helped India's aircraft industry will be cold comfort to Tejas pilots.

One expert suggests that, in the event of war, the Indian air force would probably hold the Tejas back from high-threat situations and let aircraft such as the Sukhoi Su-30MKI, Sepecat Jaguar, Dassault Mirage, and the eventual winner of India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest, deal with high-intensity combat.

A typical flight global FACTUAL REPORT
After the customary shedding of crocodile tears for tejas pilots the reporter goes on spinning his own yarn.

I am really amazed to know that 1970s jaguar can be the fighter in high threat areas(it does not even have a radar) while tejas will be hidden away in the bunker with asea radar and interfaces for astra mk-2 bvr and MMRCA rafale's METEOR 120 km range missile.

what will be the radar range of updated mirage,sure it is not going to have asea ,I think.SO how does tejas mk-2 becomes inferior to mirage?

I wonder whether the author himself will provide the asea radar and 120 km range missile to jaguar.

 

[ersakthivel]

Dawn of Tejas

The milestones achieved in the past 12 months come after two decades of frustration and failure for the Tejas. The fighter's powerplant was originally supposed to be the Kaveri engine developed by the government-run Gas Turbine Research Establishment. As of 2009, the GTRE had spent Rs20 billion ($455 million) over the 20-year programme, only to produce an overweight engine unable to provide the 21,000-22,500lb thrust (93-100kN) required

Two decades of frustration and failures have suddenly turned into a finished product overnight according to the author.Surely one fine morning all ADA staff assemble in LCA hanger and prayed to GOD and got some manna from heaven according to the author.
It is in stark contrast to 2000 incident free test flights validating all flight parameters according to ADA.

At last after sleeping blundering through two decades of frustration and failure all of a sudden Lady luck has smiled on tejas it seems.

The GTRE was never tasked to produce a 93-100 kn engine in the first place.The design thrust of kaveri is close to 80 kn only
due to lower intial ASR specs of IAF in 1984 like 1.5 mach top speed ,17 degree STR,and 4 ton pylon load with a lesser weight lower range air to air missiles of that time(according to air marshal MSD WOLLEN(former HAL chief during the inception of tejas program ) with a mtow of 12 tons only.
http://www.tejas.gov.in/featured_articles/air_marshal_msd_wollen/page01.html

Space constraints prevent any meaningful description of materials, technology, facilities, processes developed for execution of the project. Military aviation enthusiasts may read a monograph on Aeronautical Technology that has attained maturity through DRDO efforts; much of this technology finds application in the LCA project. The monograph was brought out at Aero India 1998. The LCA is tailless with a double-sweep delta wing. Its wing span is 8.2 m, length 13.2 m, height 4.4 m. TOW clean 8.500 kg, MTOW 12500kg. It will be super-sonic at all altitudes, max speed of M 1.5 at the tropopause. Specific excess power and g-over load data has not been published. Maximum sustained rate of turn will be 17 deg per sec and maximum attainable 30 deg per sec.

Salient engine features include the 3 stage fan; 6 stage HP compressor with variable geometry IGV, I and II stators; annular combustion chamber; cooled single stage HP and LP turbines; modulated after-burner; fully variable, convergent-divergent nozzle; length 3490 mm; max diameter 910 mm; dry thrust 52 kN; reheat thrust 81 kN; thrust weight ratio 7.8.

Opposed to this now lca has a pylon load rating of 5.7 tons and MTOW of 14 tons and already achieved mach 1.6 at 7 km altitude not at altitude ceiling within the restritcted 85 percent flight envelope opening with 84 kn engine.it has 120 km detection and tracking radar and in midlife upgrade can get asea radar and k-10 engine developed for amca,which will help it to increase in performance in every sphere.

The gtre achieved 70 plus kn and it has a working engine.As usual it is painted as total disaster.The engine is overweight by around 100 kg and it is working.The jv with snecma(when it will be concluded and what ,only god knows) will produce a totally indigenous fighter with home grown asea radar and astra mk-2 missile within a decades time while doubling up as an amca engine.

But ignoring all these the effort is painted as a disaster.Considering the mig-21 crashing RD engine the IAF is saddled with the gtre -snecma version will be a ten times better engine

"Tejas is a prime example of the dispute between the guys in lab coats and guys in flight suits," says Teal Group analyst Richard Aboulafia, referring to the heavy government involvement in the project.

Nonetheless, India is determined to press on with development of its indigenous fighter industry. It has committed to 40 Tejas Mk Is, and is likely to buy 40 more, says Nayak. These first aircraft will all be powered by the F404, and will be followed by 80 F414-powered Mk IIs.

Obviously the analyst was never a lab guy or pilot and analysts like these are dime a dozen when it comes to criticizing tejas ,actually it is a part time job for some people.

Then the usual concluding part of painting the IAF as a martyr being forced to fly the overweight under powered floundering aircraft called TEJAS.Slyly ignoring the facts like, even the mk-1 can get the higher powered k-10 in it's first engine change(as every fighter has to undergo 3 engine changes in it's life time and 40 sukhois even without weaponisation spent an entire decade in IAf under the guise of honing tactics.
http://www.tejas.gov.in/featured_articles/air_marshal_msd_wollen/page03.html

There will be setbacks in the flight development phase. All major engineering projects suffer them. For instance, India's first two SLVs failed disastrously. The Prime Minister was present at the first launch at Sriharikota; so was this author. Disappointment was everywhere but no recrimination; only determination to get it right. Loss of a demonstrator aircraft or prototype could take place; lives could be lost, leading to questions/debate. Therefore, let the recent transparency in the program continue, even intensify; let it be honest, 2010 is not far, for a first' program of this magnitude and complexity.

the above is the view regarding timeline of tejas development.Compare that to the sarcastic tone adopted by the reporter.

 

[gokussj9]

Dawn of Tejas



Two decades of frustration and failures have suddenly turned into a finished product overnight according to the author.Surely one fine morning all ADA staff assemble in LCA hanger and prayed to GOD and got some manna from heaven according to the author.

At last after sleeping blundering through two decades of frustration and failure all of a udden Lady luck has smiled on tejas it seems.

The GTRE was never tasked to produce a 93-100 kn engine in the first place.The design thrust of kaveri is close to 80 kn only due to lower intial ASR specs of IAF in 1984 like 1.5 mach top speed and 4 ton pylon load.The gtre achieved 70 plus kn and it has a working engine.As usual it is painted as total disaster.The engine is overweight by around 100 kg and it is working.The jv with snecma(when it will be concluded and what ,only god knows) will produce a totally indigenous fighter with home grown asea radar and astra mk-2 missile within a decades time while doubling up as an amca engine.
But ignoring all these the effort is painted as a disaster.Considering the mig-21 crashing RD engine the IAF is saddled with the gtre -snecma version will be a ten times betterengine

Buddy, many of these articles are purposely sponsored by foreign countries
just to defame the local aerospace industries so that India will remain an importer
of their arms forever. People read these articles and get disheartened without thinking
how much has been achieved with such low support in terms of manpower and money.

 

[ersakthivel]

F-16 has a far higher range and payload than the twin engined Mig-29 which has lesser range.Because it had all the state of art tech of that time like Relaxed static stability ,FBW and higher thrust more technologically advanced engine which mig-29 lacked.


Mig-29 also was as a fast interceptor and capable of operating from forward areas with lower flight time like tejas.
Because of the conventional layout (stable flight profile opposed to unstable profile of F-16)to get the equivalent air superiority performance without the relaxed static stability ,FBW and mig-29 went for very high installed thrust with two engines.Also the reliability issues of RD series engines are well known so it made better sense to go with twin engines.

Since it did not have relaxed static stability it went for more heavier weighing conventional stable flight profile which always try to move the plane into level flight whenever the pilot maneuvers it.So it needed very large wing and higher empty weight and two engines to power all these heavy loads with enough agility.So twin engined planes need not necessarily be superior over single engined planes all the time automatically.

Of course if mig-29 too had relaxed static stability and far higher speed control surfaces adjustments like other fbw planes it would be far superior to F-16 in combat performance validating the conventional notion that twin engined planes with higher twr can club all the single engined planes.

But the truth is despite having higher thrust twin engines factors like
1. lack of relaxed static stability and

2.Fbw very fast adjustment of control surfaces

made it having only closer or bit lesser performance level of F-16.

But even F-16 had grown in weight leading to heavier wing loading over the time with each upgrade taking it's toll on agility.

So the ada choose the more complex way of unstable fly by wire tech based relaxed static stability model for tejas to make it relevant for the 21st century.So there is no reason to blindly believe that every conventional stable platform with higher powered twin engine configuration can easily out maneuver FCS controlled relaxed static stability platform like tejas automatically.

So range, payload and maneuverability does not automatically mean that a bigger plane with higher T:W ratio lacking relaxed static stability and FBW controls can always beat a smaller single engined relaxed static FBW plane with adequate TWR.

The Mig-29's low fuel fraction is the inherent limitation due to the configuration of stable flight profile . Excess thrust with twin engines was an attempt to rectify the disadvantage of not having relaxed static stability fbw contraption.

,IF the empty weight as a percentage of a comparable single engine plane is higher that cuts into the fuel fraction of twin engined planes.
F-18 hornet , another twin engine plane similar to the F-16 again has a low fuel fraction and small legs compared to the F-16 , though it is has FBW controls. F-18 is understandable because it needs two engines for carrier and open sea operations and reliability.


Tejas with an empty weight of 6.5tons, a nearly 85KN and HMDS and off boresight heat seeking and active radar missiles still gets crucified because it does not meet the Sustained Turn Rate requirements of the IAF ASR new improved mk-2 is ordered with GE414 engines,eventhough sustained turn is not so critical anymore.

So if at all ADA ventured out to build a mig-21 replacement with russian type tech with no FBW controllable relaxed static stability platform the result would be the one sitting on the turmac across the border JF-17, debuting as an obsolete fighter. SO the ADA,s choice was right in tejas.

That is the reason why tejas will remain state of the art for a long time because it has the FBW based Relaxed static stability with capacity to carry 5 ton loads with higher fuel fraction built into it.A higher thrust engine engine will only enhance it's performance. In contrast however much you try to upgrade the Mig-29 or any other conventional layout static stability platforms they can never become state of the art.

A Delta-Winged aircraft excells over conventional compound straight wing fighter , because of it's high wing-area (thus low wing-loading) in suited for high-speed, high elevation, transonic/supersonic flight profile.

For low level ground bombing role, you need a lower area wing so that you can have better control of the plane due to extensive buffeting encountered below a certain altitude.because density of air changes more frequently in the lower altitudes due to various factors like induction heating of the air layers from the earth's surface, localized land breeze disturbing the inherent tendency of lighter and hotter air rising and getting replaced by the cooler higher altitude

SO for ground bombing role deltas rely on FBW to overcome this lack of control, because the FBW adjusts control surfaces 10/15-times-a-sec ,which is impossible for humans.That's the reason nowadays why even carrier borne fighters like rafale are low wing loading deltas unlike the older FA-18 hornets because this minute adjustment let rafale do carrier landing with the same ease of FA-18 due to 10/15-times-a-sec control surface adjustments by FBW.That's the reason why F-16 has much higher STR than the supposedly better twin engined FA-18.

In the absence of relaxed static stability FBW tech ,the SU-27 was USSR attempt to solve this problem by having a delta shape profile (lower drag at high speed etc.) in the higher altitudes by swinging it back and make it swing it out to a lower-swept angle staight wing for lower altitude, facilitating slower but stable handling at lower altitude.BUt this arrangement itself added considerable dead weight to the platform, due to the weight needed to move the wings.

 

[venkat]

ersakthivel!!! jaguar doesn't have a Radar? you are 1000% wrong my dear!!!

 

[Decklander]

ersakthivel!!! jaguar doesn't have a Radar? you are 1000% wrong my dear!!!

Only Maritime strike Jaguars have radar.

 

[Snuggy321]

ersakthivel!!! jaguar doesn't have a Radar? you are 1000% wrong my dear!!!

jaguars dont have radars... they are designed as pure ground attack aicraft

 

[uss]

Yes as of now Jaguar's don't have radars (Except the Jaguar Marine strike one). But after the DARIN III upgrade the single seater will have the MMR (probably 2032 as of LCA).

"This is significant moment for HAL as the upgrade will result in major operational improvement with regard to all-weather air-to-ground, air-to-sea and air-to-air capabilities through the incorporation of multi-mode radar," said Dr R. K. Tyagi, Chairman, HAL.

Welcome to Aerospace Division of HAL --> scroll down to Jaguar DARIN III upgrade
Business Line : Industry & Economy / Logistics : HAL's upgraded Jaguar Darin III makes maiden flight
Upgraded Jaguar Darin III jet makes maiden flight - SP's Aviation

 

[Decklander]

Jag nose had the laser designator which is now being modified to carry elta 2032 MMR and it will also carry the Litening FLIR pod for ground attacks.

 

[ersakthivel]

but it surely wont have the 120 km range of tejas.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Then what will INDIA do with 1000 AL-31 engines we are going to get, if we sign a deal as mentioned in another thread........

 

[shiphone]

actually the first HAL's Jaguar with Darin III upgrade is a Jaguar IM which took the Maiden Flight on Nov 28 2012...It has the rardar already for decade...so such News report mentioned radar is just OK for IMs.

It might be early to say ISs and ITs will have the radar after Darin III upgrades ...and I doubt that IAF will buy around 90 sets of new radar for IS and IT, many source didn't mention the radar issue before this November. but it was reported that IS might have EL/M-20600 radar targetting pod.

--------------------
tail number JM255....it's one of the 10 IMs