ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[MonaLazy]

I was going thru brf and found this.



Is this true ??

I think so, yes!

Applying simple maths with knowledge from Sameer Sir's tweet:

So in the jump from GaAs to GaN for the same size you get 2x TRMs and 5x RF power. Effectively jump in power per TRM is 2.5x (if you remove the doubling because of size- we are interested in per TRM power bump)

740+ GaAs TRMs in Mk1A transmitting say x units of power
Power output=740x

900 GaN TRMs in Mk2 transmitting 2.5x units of power (x is same as above)
Power output=900*2.5x=2250x

Power jump from Mk1A to Mk2=2250x / 740x = 2250/740= 3 times more RF power in Mk2 than Mk1A!!

 

[THESIS THORON]

I think so, yes!

Applying simple maths with knowledge from Sameer Sir's tweet:

View attachment 128706

So in the jump from GaAs to GaN for the same size you get 2x TRMs and 5x RF power. Effectively jump in power per TRM is 2.5x (if you remove the doubling because of size- we are interested in per TRM power bump)

740+ GaAs TRMs in Mk1A transmitting say x units of power
Power output=740x

900 GaN TRMs in Mk2 transmitting 2.5x units of power (x is same as above)
Power output=900*2.5x=2250x

Power jump from Mk1A to Mk2=2250x / 740x = 2250/740= 3 times more RF power in Mk2 than Mk1A!!

BUT ENGINE WILL LIMIT THE RANGE

 

[MonaLazy]

BUT ENGINE WILL LIMIT THE RANGE

Not engine.. we are looking for kW not kN.. electrical power available on board only.

Again going back to the text you quoted from the good people at BRF. Mk1(A?) can deliver about 3-4kW of electrical power whereas GaN Uttam needs about 9-10kW for regular operation. That seems to be the limiting factor. Otherwise GaN runs cooler than GaAs so cooling requirements are lower and as such not a limiting factor. GaN has other problems like being expensive, more variation over temperature etc.

What’s The Difference Between GaAs And GaN RF Power Amplifiers?

This article discusses the pros and cons of GaAs vs. GaN semiconductors for RF power amplifiers.

www.electronicdesign.com

The GaN devices tend to be more efficient. The Power
Added Efficiency (PAE) for GaAs MMICs is about half of GaN
MMICs (PAE ~ 30 % for GaN and, ~15% for GaAs). GaN devices operate at higher voltages – usually 20 -28 V while GaAs
devices operate in the 6-8 V range. This higher voltage means
less current for the same output power so PCBA traces can be
smaller, thus saving space. Since the GaN operating voltage is
closer to the standard supply voltages there is some efficiency in
DC power regulation. The better efficiency of GaN technology
may improve MTBF of the product as the devices are not running as hot and the parts count can be reduced.

A Comparison of GaN VS GaAs System Performance

 

[Kalkioftoday]

I was going thru brf and found this.



Is this true ??

Link de bhai

 

[THESIS THORON]

Not engine.. we are looking for kW not kN.. electrical power available on board only.

Again going back to the text you quoted from the good people at BRF. Mk1(A?) can deliver about 3-4kW of electrical power whereas GaN Uttam needs about 9-10kW for regular operation. That seems to be the limiting factor. Otherwise GaN runs cooler than GaAs so cooling requirements are lower and as such not a limiting factor. GaN has other problems like being expensive, more variation over temperature etc.

View attachment 128708

What’s The Difference Between GaAs And GaN RF Power Amplifiers?

This article discusses the pros and cons of GaAs vs. GaN semiconductors for RF power amplifiers.

www.electronicdesign.com

A Comparison of GaN VS GaAs System Performance

yeah by engine I meant kw only not kn.

uttam mk2 will have gan amplifiers or twt ??

 

[THESIS THORON]

Link de bhai

Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019 - Page 43 - Bharat Rakshak

 

[THESIS THORON]

Not engine.. we are looking for kW not kN.. electrical power available on board only.

Again going back to the text you quoted from the good people at BRF. Mk1(A?) can deliver about 3-4kW of electrical power whereas GaN Uttam needs about 9-10kW for regular operation. That seems to be the limiting factor. Otherwise GaN runs cooler than GaAs so cooling requirements are lower and as such not a limiting factor. GaN has other problems like being expensive, more variation over temperature etc.

View attachment 128708

What’s The Difference Between GaAs And GaN RF Power Amplifiers?

This article discusses the pros and cons of GaAs vs. GaN semiconductors for RF power amplifiers.

www.electronicdesign.com

A Comparison of GaN VS GaAs System Performance

Correct. The Mk2s radar is much more powerful than that of Mk1A. In fact generating so much power from a single engine and also cooling is the constraint.

indranil wrote this

 

[Lonewolf]

Correct. The Mk2s radar is much more powerful than that of Mk1A. In fact generating so much power from a single engine and also cooling is the constraint.

indranil wrote this

Even if uttam GaN don't use full potential of GaN ,still it would be giving much superior performance than earlier GaAs variant .

So overall it's a upgrade

 

[THESIS THORON]

so can we consider 200km for 1m2 ?? and 350 for 2m2

 

[MonaLazy]

so can we consider 200km for 1m2 ?? and 350 for 2m2

No clue! That's supposed to be top secret.

yeah by engine I meant kw only not kn.

uttam mk2 will have gan amplifiers or twt ??

GaN

Also got a different set of numbers for TRMs from IDRW:

Uttam Mk2 Aesa Radar to get “Game Changer” rotating repositioner – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Reworking the math

Mk2 / Mk1A = 992*2.5/780 = 3.18x!!

 

[Kalkioftoday]

so can we consider 200km for 1m2 ?? and 350 for 2m2

Very much possible if the antennas are GaN based Vivaldi.

 

[THESIS THORON]

we will start inducting mk2 from 2026-7 ??

and mk1a from 2024-5 ??

 

[Lonewolf]

we will start inducting mk2 from 2026-7 ??

and mk1a from 2024-5 ??

Yup and mk1a as per one old hvt tweet may see uttam mk2 too

 

[XR SAM]

Compare Rafale F4 and Tejas MWF on basis of Radar, Avionics, EW, communication, network centric ability,Data Fusion and stealth. Can we expect MWF to be as advanced if not better in these things? Don't compare weapons because Rafale will carry Meteor and Scalpe which is best.

 

[Lonewolf]

Compare Rafale F4 and Tejas MWF on basis of Radar, Avionics, EW, communication, network centric ability,Data Fusion and stealth. Can we expect MWF to be as advanced if not better in these things? Don't compare weapons because Rafale will carry Meteor and Scalpe which is best.

Radar , both will utilise GaN Vivaldi ,which one better , no one can comment , as specs of F4 antenna not available here ,nor of mk2 one .

Both will have irst , tejas mk2 will have dcmaws upg , french counterparts have more refinement due to being developed earlier and upgraded extensively .

F4 EW will be better of course , it's one of the most expensive EW yet , and it's data Library is huge . Tejas mk2 will utilise GaN jammer similar to F4 , internal for both .

Rwr ng is on par with F4 .

Rest comparison is not good as both have different class , F4 will have more power for electronics .

If u look at tech used ,both will be almost on par ,but F4 performance will obviously exceed due to more available power .

Moreover F4 will utilise side facing radar panel .

So that's a advantage .
But passive stealth is missing in both , active stealth is based on ew capabilities so f 4 have advantage .

But tejas mk2 is competitive to f 21 and gripen ng , and it fairs well in that category

 

[THESIS THORON]

Radar , both will utilise GaN Vivaldi ,which one better , no one can comment , as specs of F4 antenna not available here ,nor of mk2 one .

Both will have irst , tejas mk2 will have dcmaws upg , french counterparts have more refinement due to being developed earlier and upgraded extensively .

F4 EW will be better of course , it's one of the most expensive EW yet , and it's data Library is huge . Tejas mk2 will utilise GaN jammer similar to F4 , internal for both .

Rwr ng is on par with F4 .

Rest comparison is not good as both have different class , F4 will have more power for electronics .

If u look at tech used ,both will be almost on par ,but F4 performance will obviously exceed due to more available power .

Moreover F4 will utilise side facing radar panel .

So that's a advantage .
But passive stealth is missing in both , active stealth is based on ew capabilities so f 4 have advantage .

But tejas mk2 is competitive to f 21 and gripen ng , and it fairs well in that category

yes we will be able to beat rafale in orca/tedbf

 

[IndianHawk]

so can we consider 200km for 1m2 ?? and 350 for 2m2

Given that mk1a GaS radar tracks 1m2 @135 km we can expect GaN based radar to tarck 1m2 @180 + km easily.

 

[IndianHawk]

Yup and mk1a as per one old hvt tweet may see uttam mk2 too

Indranil too confirmed that it can be done when mk1a goes in for MLU.

 

[IndianHawk]

yes we will be able to beat rafale in orca/tedbf

In raw power and onboard sensors tedbf will be ahead of Rafale. But in sophistication / refinement and maturity of ew suite Rafale will retain slight edge for quite some time.

But with indeginous weapons we might make tedbf more effective than Rafale since french can't meet the sheer number of indeginous weapon we are going to develop in this decade. From bramhos NG to rudram series to cats hunter to wingmans , SFDR with astra mk2 and astra based ngccm and many many types of pods and jammers and lR - lacm and LR -lashM.

The sheer scale of development is too much for french to keep up.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Moreover F4 will utilise side facing radar panel .

Can you provide source for the above statement as I couldn't find any information regarding side facing radar panel.

But passive stealth is missing in both , active stealth is based on ew capabilities so f 4 have advantage .

Active Stealth is more of a marketing ploy. With active stealth you have RF-emission from your radar or EW suite.
Adversary can detect and approximate you with right technology based on your RF-emission. It not needs to be your adversary's aircraft but any C3ISTAR or C3ISREW assets in the vicinity. Ground based EW and ES assets can also easily do the same. Modern AEW&CS also do posses such capabilities.

But tejas mk2 is competitive to f 21 and gripen ng , and it fairs well in that category

You are underestimating F-21. F-21 can easily take on Rafale or Tejas Mk. 2.
AN/APG-83 is way more powerful than Uttam or RBE2-AA AESA radar.
AN/ALQ-184 ECM Pod, AN/ALE-50 towed decoy system and PAWS combined are as good as Spectra.