ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

Brood Father

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By that logic the entire MWF project must be shut down.
MWF is our tech which can be altered . Adding new features in MWF is way more easier than a forien maal ..
Also given the timelines it is now evident that no new fighter jets will be inducted before 2030 (except MK1A and few 29 and MKI's)
So MWF is now ideal choice ..Cancel this stupid MRCA and invest in indigenous technologies
 

IndianHawk

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MWF is our tech which can be altered . Adding new features in MWF is way more easier than a forien maal ..
Also given the timelines it is now evident that no new fighter jets will be inducted before 2030 (except MK1A and few 29 and MKI's)
So MWF is now ideal choice ..Cancel this stupid MRCA and invest in indigenous technologies
These discussions are becoming redundant.
Looking at numbers both MWF and more Rafale are required.

We already have infra for 2 more Rafale squadrons so they are definitely coming . Now the question is how many more will come?
IAF wants 54 - 72 more rafales govt may agree on only 36 more or may put full stop after next 2 squadrons.

Meanwhile MWF will fullfill the numbers.
 

no smoking

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France is producing Rafale since 1986. Till date only 237 Rafale are produced. That means only 6 per year. So I guess france is useless in managing fighter jet production?? Perhaps they should let HAL do it atleast they will get to 20 per year .lol.
Before laughing at others, please check the fact first.
The first Rafale's tech demonstrator was rolled out in Dec-1985 and took its maiden flight in Jul-1986.
The formal production started in 1992, then it was suspended in 1994 due to the budget cut of the end of cold war and resumed in 1997 with only 48 ordered.

The problem with Rafale production was not Dassault's capability but the number of orders: they have been struggling to find customers for quite long time.
 

Ugra Bhairav

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Before laughing at others, please check the fact first.
The first Rafale's tech demonstrator was rolled out in Dec-1985 and took its maiden flight in Jul-1986.
The formal production started in 1992, then it was suspended in 1994 due to the budget cut of the end of cold war and resumed in 1997 with only 48 ordered.

The problem with Rafale production was not Dassault's capability but the number of orders: they have been struggling to find customers for quite long time.
The same is true about TEJAS MK-1

Ordered only 20-IOC and 20-FOC

How a production agency going to deliver such meager order at the rate 12 or 20 or 24 per year ????

still good job by HAL considering such small order
 

Adrian Corvus

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The problem with Rafale production was not Dassault's capability but the number of orders: they have been struggling to find customers for quite long time.
Isn't this the same for HAL? Not enough orders?
For context, spitfire said India is useless in production and SAAB can help us in that aspect. But afaik HAL has managed to deliver the MKIs on schedule. So, on what you said, shouldn't that be holding true for HAL too? As the problem lies in the number of orders and not HAL's capability in production. Of course, by no means I am saying HAL is as capable as Dassault.
 

Ugra Bhairav

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I am just worried about t/w ratio of tejas mk2 it is not above 1
Empty Weight of Tejas = 7850 kg
Engine Thrust = 98 kN = 22,031 Ibf

Empty Weight of F-16F = 9208 kgs
Engine Thrust = 129 kN = 29,100 Ibf

Empty Weight of Mirage-2000 = 7,500 kg
Engine Thrust = 95.1 kN = 21,356 Ibf

Around about same ball park with F-16 & Mirage-2K
 
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THESIS THORON

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Empty Weight of Tejas = 7850 kg
Engine Thrust = 98 kN = 22,031 Ibf

Empty Weight of F-16F = 9208 kgs
Engine Thrust = 129 kN = 29,100 Ibf

Empty Weight of Mirage-2000 = 7,500 kg
Engine Thrust = 95.1 kN = 21,356 Ibf

Around about same ball park with F-16 & Mirage
but this is comparision with empty weight, which is useless.


with maximum internal fuel capacity t/w ratio is 0.88 which bad

weight with full fuel 11250kg

empty weight-7850kg

thrust 98kn

this is with no weapons :scared2:
 

IndianHawk

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Before laughing at others, please check the fact first.
The first Rafale's tech demonstrator was rolled out in Dec-1985 and took its maiden flight in Jul-1986.
The formal production started in 1992, then it was suspended in 1994 due to the budget cut of the end of cold war and resumed in 1997 with only 48 ordered.

The problem with Rafale production was not Dassault's capability but the number of orders: they have been struggling to find customers for quite long time.
Before proving your idiocy please check the context of the post. This was a satirical post in response to original poster questioning HAL.
 

ShukantC

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The last few days I've noticed that a few are people are doubting whether the beautiful mk2 will ever join IAF in good numbers, so this prompted me to do some google searching and try to find out what the situation can or will be.

First going by our history with the MMRCA program with an RFI released in 2001 we narrowed down to the 2 finalist only in 2011 and finally in 2012 we chose the Rafale but unfortunately the final negotiations dragged on till 2015 and then finally the whole program was cancelled and in turn IAF ordered 36Rafale as stop gap for 7.8Bn Euros.

Now if go by this the timeline for the RFI to final contender and we half it (2001 - 2015 = 14years/2 = 7years) ie 7years best scenario if the government manages to fast track it we are still expecting the RFI to be released in 2022 end or 2023 latest because even the ASQR for the program which highlights what the IAF actually wants from the new Aircraft has not been finalized.

So with all this we reach the year 2030-2031 where we have finally narrowed down to fighter and will start setting up its production line which in turn will take 3 years to become normalized and we expect the first fighter to join the force somewhere in 2032-2033 (the ones from the selected manufacturer).

So we will be getting a 4.5+ or 4.75 or 5- gen fighter in 2033 at the earliest with the whole program costing above $10 bn surely.

Now lets look at the domestic front.

The MWF or mk2 we assume will take its first flight in 2023( I know they said 2022 ending but just in case time buffer provided) and since no TD or prototype phase this time lets assume 5 years of test flights to check all parameters and for production certification we reach 2028. Now since the production line setting up will be much faster as the line may be churning out 1 or 2 AC for the testing phase we can assume our first squadron to be ready by 2030-31 so by 2033 at least 1.5 more squadrons would have joined.

Now lets look at the AMCA whose first flight is expected to be by 2024-25 and with 5-7yrs of test flights will only be production ready by 2032-33 and maybe the 1st squadron by 2035.

So even with this naïve analysis the IAF cannot do without the Mk2 and at most 36 of the 4.1 rafale maybe ordered again as a stop gap
 

Ugra Bhairav

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but this is comparision with empty weight, which is useless. With maximum internal fuel capacity t/w ratio is 0.88 which bad weight with
full fuel 11250kg
empty weight-7850kg
thrust 98kn
this is with no weapons :scared2:
SPACS:

MIRAGE-2K
EMPTY WT 7500
FUEL KG 3950
TOTAL WT 11450

ENGINE THRUST 95.1kN

TWR 0.83


TEJAS-MK2

EMPTY WT 7850
FUEL KG 3388
TOTAL WT 11238

ENGINE THRUST 98kN
TWR 0.88

F-16F
EMPTY WT 9208
FUEL KG 3175
TOTAL WT 12383

ENGINE THRUST 129kN
TWR 1.04


Do you seriously think MIRAGE-2000 is under powered?????????????

Tejas-MK2 has TWR then Mirage, kosher for IAF until they got RAFALE

Think again before you post

P.S.: with pw-110 129kN Tejas-mk2 will be on STEROIDS

Most ideal is 100kN engine which dont exist anywhere in the world
 
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THESIS THORON

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SPACS:

MIRAGE-2K TEJAS-MK2 F-16F
EMPTY WT 7500 7850 9208
FUEL KG 3950 3388 3175
TOTAL WT 11450 11238 12383

ENGINE THRUST 95.1kN 98kN 129kN

TWR 0.83 0.88 1.04


Do you seriously think MIRAGE-2000 is under powered?????????????

Tejas-MK2 has TWR then Mirage, kosher for IAF until they got RAFALE

Think again before you post

yes I will consider it as underpowered, If you are making a jet which will last in iaf till 2070s.

and also we are making a versatile jet which will replace mig 29s.

migs have best t/w ratio thats why they are deployed near chinks confrontation.


see, i am not opposing and saying that mk2 is shit or crap, I have earlier mentioned that I have worries about t/w of mk2.


mk2 is very needed step for our aviation industry to fructify, and I oppose the recent news of tejas mk2 not getting attention by iaf.
 

MonaLazy

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MWF or mk2 we assume will take its first flight in 2023( I know they said 2022 ending but just in case time buffer provided)
just a small correction.. roll out is planned for August 2022 (possibly as the shining example of Atmnirbharta after 75 years of independence)- and high-speed trials will be in 2023 and production around 2025 as planned.

1638776338726.png



1638776659468.png


 
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Ugra Bhairav

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yes I will consider it as underpowered, If you are making a jet which will last in iaf till 2070s.

and also we are making a versatile jet which will replace mig 29s.

migs have best t/w ratio thats why they are deployed near chinks confrontation.


see, i am not opposing and saying that mk2 is shit or crap, I have earlier mentioned that I have worries about t/w of mk2.


mk2 is very needed step for our aviation industry to fructify, and I oppose the recent news of tejas mk2 not getting attention by iaf.
All in all it boils down to design philosophy and tactics used by a fighter jet.

comparing F-16 with Mirage-2000

both plans have their own strengths and weakness:


F-16A at 15k ft
ITR = 20 degrees/second
STR = 14.2 degrees/second


F-16A at 15k feet.jpg

Mirage 2000 at 15k ft
ITR = 23.9 degrees/second
STR = 12.5 degrees/second
Mirage 2000 at 15k feet.jpg

ITR from best to worst: Mirage 2000 > F-16 > F-5 > Mig-21

STR from best to worst: F-16 > Mirage 2000 > F-5 > Mig-21



How you rate the 2000 in the following categories?


Instantaneous turn
“Best in the Class, I don’t think there is any fighter comes any close, this needs to be measured with roll and rate of onset of the turn (called tau). In a common language, it means when I spot a bogey how fast can I bank to the required degree, initiate a turn and point towards him. In this regard Mirage 2000 is the best.”


Sustained turn “This is a question of aerodynamics; any delta planform generates higher drag than non- delta planform. Therefore, sustained rate is a function of drag and thrust. Practically, sustained rate is rarely needed, worst case scenario is a bogey on your six in close combat; the Mirage 2000 has enough power, rate of roll and ‘tau’ to shake him off. Mirage 2000 has another unique system that mitigates this Drag and produces adequate lift to sustain the turn and that is slats, with slats at low speeds, in a close combat engagement you can’t get away from a Mirage 2000.”

High alpha
– Nothing can beat a Delta platform in this regard, be it MiG 21 or Mirage 2000.

I’m a bit confused by this, is a MiG-29 or Su-30 with a tailed delta not superior?


“High Alpha needs to be understood in its context, High angle of attack does not mean high lift, it is means requisite lift is produced at higher angle of attack, Su-30 MiG-29 are not tailed delta, MiG-21 is a tailed delta. Originally the MiG-21 was not designed as a delta planform, but designers filled the extra space and found that long root to mid chord gave advantage in producing lift and could carry additional fuel and house part of undercarriage etc. So in this case, the delta planform was born more by accident. French adopted it without tail and made Mirage series of fighters. Tailless deltas (without fly-by -wire) like the Mirage III and Mirage V that Pakistan has, suffers from extra drag in the low-speed regime, which an inherently unstable platform like the Mirage 2000 does not suffer from, it is aerodynamics. For a layman, if he watches a Mirage V at low speed and Mirage 2000 at low speed he will see the elevons (the movable part of the trailing edge of a delta wing) in a Mirage 5 is not neutral (not raised or lowered) while in a Mirage 2000 elevons are very close to neutral.”


Acceleration – “You’ve got to pay attention to control the speed in M2K, she is very quick to accelerate.”


Climb rate “At close to 300 metres per second she climbs to the altitude of business in no time.”



Hence F-16 having more TWR then Mirage-2000 but still Mirage-2000 is superior in certain flight envelops hence can overpower F-16.
 
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Kalkioftoday

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Whitecollar

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IMO best engine would be the jv one 110 and its thrust could be increased to 140kn (30% extra potential)
Best engine would've been a modified AL31F engine or if we could barter, AL41F with TVC.

I've been reading about MWF quite a lot. It seems this bird can't become anything more than a Gripen(at best).
Same reason why IAF is keeping shut cause they already know we're making something that already exists and has been offered to us several times. Given the timeline it will take to enter production, any sane person would ask Govt to procure more fighters from outside.

This is where GOI and ADA could've lessened MK2's budget(support only till 2-3 LSP get made) and go full throttle for twin engine TEDBF/ORCA common platform having frontal stealth.

Saturn engines have below avg reliability but higher thrust. GE have everything but will never let us touch the likes of GE F110 engines.
 

THESIS THORON

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