ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Sir pe tapla]

Running numbers again. We need to say good buy to 80+ mig 21 by 2025. And 130 jaguars by 2035. And 50 mirages by 2035.
And 66 mig29 by 2030.

That's 320 jets to replaced by 2035. When amca will come and start replacing su30 early batches.

83 mk1a are already coming. Leaving 240 more jets.
90 more rafales means 150 more jets which will have to be MWF.

Going by budget we could probably order only 72 more rafales and end up buying 170 MWF .

The numbers do check out.

 

[destructodisc]

This is where MoD needs to put its foot down and not grant AoN and ask IAF to buy MWF instead.

Meanwhile MEA babus pitching checkmate to MOD babus after some russian maal

 

[flanker99]

If they are buying fighter jets in a hurry, they are planning for war.

the current squadrons coupled with S400 and Indian navy is adequate to defend.

secondly India already have the technologies and tech base to build LCA mark 2, Tedbf and AMCA.

if needed they can add assembly lines to build 60 LCA mark 1 per year.

HAL is pitching LCA for export this indicates that India can build LCA at faster pace.

IAF will be hopelessly outnumbered in the next 5 years against the combined chinese and porky AF.
Chinks are literally adding 100's of new fighters to their airforce every year plus many more supports etc.
People should not be thinking that current numbers or even the projected numbers will be enough...If any new study is done at this day and age for the number of jets...then pants will start coming off

 

[pipebomb]

Deshbhakts in MOD/GOI need to ward off this 90 Rafale push till MWF takes flight. Till then dalals has a window of opportunity.

 

[Spitfire9]

Running numbers again. We need to say good buy to 80+ mig 21 by 2025. And 130 jaguars by 2035. And 50 mirages by 2035.
And 66 mig29 by 2030.

That's 320 jets to replaced by 2035. When amca will come and start replacing su30 early batches.

83 mk1a are already coming. Leaving 240 more jets.
90 more rafales means 150 more jets which will have to be MWF.

Going by budget we could probably order only 72 more rafales and end up buying 170 MWF .

OK, let's say 72 more Rafale + 83 Mk1A will be coming. I suggest adding another FAL raising capacity to 24 fighters a year from 2025/2026. If Mk1A gets any export orders, they can be handled without delaying IAF deliveries. If no exports are forthcoming, and it is too early to start Mk2 assembly, an extra Mk1A squadron can be forced on IAF, keeping the line busy until 2027/2028. Line can then be switched to Mk2/MWF to produce 24 a year using all FAL's. If IAF ordered 168 Mk2, the lines would be busy until 2034/2035, assuming no exports.

I think Mk2 probably would attract export interest as a low cost fighter with low cost Indian weapons.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Mwf is dead, import airforce wins again .

Not so soon.. Air Force has been jacking off to MMRCA and now MFRA, for 1.5 decades now.. ASQR to DAC - 1 year.. ( DAC -- CCS -- BABU FROM FINANCE -- CCS Clearance takes

 

[IndianHawk]

IAF will be hopelessly outnumbered in the next 5 years against the combined chinese and porky AF.
Chinks are literally adding 100's of new fighters to their airforce every year plus many more supports etc.
People should not be thinking that current numbers or even the projected numbers will be enough...If any new study is done at this day and age for the number of jets...then pants will start coming off

While the chinese growth is fast and a great challenge yet let's put it in proper perspective.

Firsts of all chinese still operate lots of obsolete 3rd gen jets , copies of MiG-21 and jh7 which they need to replace.

Secondly while they can build jets fast they can't produce fighter pilots that way.

If they want to increase there jet numbers they need to train extra pilots for extra jets which requires very long training period.

Thirdly Tibet can still only handle so many aircrafts.

That being said we need to stop playing around and start serious military buildup against china . Defence budget should be raised to be atleast 2.5 % of gdp for the start.

 

[IndianHawk]

OK, let's say 72 more Rafale + 83 Mk1A will be coming. I suggest adding another FAL raising capacity to 24 fighters a year from 2025/2026. If Mk1A gets any export orders, they can be handled without delaying IAF deliveries. If no exports are forthcoming, and it is too early to start Mk2 assembly, an extra Mk1A squadron can be forced on IAF, keeping the line busy until 2027/2028. Line can then be switched to Mk2/MWF to produce 24 a year using all FAL's. If IAF ordered 168 Mk2, the lines would be busy until 2034/2035, assuming no exports.

I think Mk2 probably would attract export interest as a low cost fighter with low cost Indian weapons.

More mk1a for iaf is difficult proposition since iaf has wants MWF as the minimum capability going forward. Mk1a doesn't have adequate combat radius for two front war swing.

 

[Covfefe]

Defence budget should be raised to be atleast 2.5 % of gdp for the start.

For that to happen defence budget has to start contributing to GDP- usual forex sucking and glorified screwdrivergiri in the name of ToT at a premium to the taxpayer (which the jernails think is meant by indigenous equipment) won't be sufficient

 

[Spitfire9]

More mk1a for iaf is difficult proposition since iaf has wants MWF as the minimum capability going forward. Mk1a doesn't have adequate combat radius for two front war swing.

OK, so no more Mk1A are wanted by IAF. I still think that FAL capacity should increase and if Malaysia does order Mk1A it seems to me it would be insane not to increase production capacity. India is in a state of armed conflict on and off with 2 neighbouring countries and (while no expert) I would think that what will happen on the western front is very unpredictable. India needs more fighters and there are only three ways of getting them - buying them from foreign OEM's, assembling foreign OEM aircraft in India or assembling indigenous designs in India. What is the point of developing aircraft in India then not producing them?

I am also surprised by the comment that India should raise defence spending to 2.5% of GDP. What is it now? Actually I just checked and it was given as 2.9% of GDP in 2020. UK, with no threats apart from Russian probing of our defences, was given as 2.2% of GDP. Either we are overspending or you are underspending. I think the latter.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

 

[IndianHawk]

OK, so no more Mk1A are wanted by IAF. I still think that FAL capacity should increase and if Malaysia does order Mk1A it seems to me it would be insane not to increase production capacity. India is in a state of armed conflict on and off with 2 neighbouring countries and (while no expert) I would think that what will happen on the western front is very unpredictable. India needs more fighters and there are only three ways of getting them - buying them from foreign OEM's, assembling foreign OEM aircraft in India or assembling indigenous designs in India. What is the point of developing aircraft in India then not producing them?

I am also surprised by the comment that India should raise defence spending to 2.5% of GDP. What is it now? Actually I just checked and it was given as 2.9% of GDP in 2020. UK, with no threats apart from Russian probing of our defences, was given as 2.2% of GDP. Either we are overspending or you are underspending. I think the latter.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

That 2.9 % of gdp on wiki is perhaps due to contraction in economy due to COVID in 2020. Otherwise it's just below 2% these days. We are definitely underspending on military since focus is on massive infrastructure and social programs.

 

[flanker99]

While the chinese growth is fast and a great challenge yet let's put it in proper perspective.

Firsts of all chinese still operate lots of obsolete 3rd gen jets , copies of MiG-21 and jh7 which they need to replace.

Secondly while they can build jets fast they can't produce fighter pilots that way.

If they want to increase there jet numbers they need to train extra pilots for extra jets which requires very long training period.

Thirdly Tibet can still only handle so many aircrafts.

That being said we need to stop playing around and start serious military buildup against china . Defence budget should be raised to be atleast 2.5 % of gdp for the start.

That bit about training is very true and they are very much increasing training capacity but yes churning our quality pilots wont be that easy.
They dont need to base many in WTC but they can easily surge numbers from mainland if need be.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

Number of Jets retiring by 2026
1. Around 80-100 Mig 21: Will be replaced by 123 Tejas mk1 and mk1a

Number of jets retiring by 2035:
1. Mirage - 48
2. Mig 29 - 66
3. Jaguar - 120
Total - 234 jets

Replacement for the above 234 jets:
1. Tejas MK2 - production starting at 2027(optimistic) , 16/year till 2035 = 16*8=128 jets

2. Remaining = 234 - 128 = 106 fighters

The question is whether IAF can count on Domestic MIC to churn out 106 more MWF by 2035 so that they can drop the MRFA plan now. Highly unlikely.

Equally unlikely is MoD babus churning out some 25 billion dollars for an 8 squadron MRFA. So a phased acquisition of 3 or 4 Rafale only makes sense. Or if the Americans are showing some muscle playing behind the CAATSA smokescreen for F-18 SH, commonality with Navy requirement is also a plus. F-18 recently showed offshore STOBAR capabilities.

I also think that the recent news of Rafale-M coming to GOA for take-off from IN's offshore facility is also not a random coincidence. I think if the MRFA tender is floated, it will be between Rafale and F-18. The winning aircraft will be acquired in phases is what i think.
Or all these will be to put pressure on GoI to show green signal to additional Rafales

 

[Shashank Nayak]

More mk1a for iaf is difficult proposition since iaf has wants MWF as the minimum capability going forward. Mk1a doesn't have adequate combat radius for two front war swing.

If IAF is fine with 83 MK1A, then, those guys better buy 5 or 6 squadrons of TEJAS MWF..

 

[pipebomb]

Number of Jets retiring by 2026
1. Around 80-100 Mig 21: Will be replaced by 123 Tejas mk1 and mk1a

Number of jets retiring by 2035:
1. Mirage - 48
2. Mig 29 - 66
3. Jaguar - 120
Total - 234 jets

Replacement for the above 234 jets:
1. Tejas MK2 - production starting at 2027(optimistic) , 16/year till 2035 = 16*8=128 jets

2. Remaining = 234 - 128 = 106 fighters

The question is whether IAF can count on Domestic MIC to churn out 106 more MWF by 2035 so that they can drop the MRFA plan now. Highly unlikely.

Equally unlikely is MoD babus churning out some 25 billion dollars for an 8 squadron MRFA. So a phased acquisition of 3 or 4 Rafale only makes sense. Or if the Americans are showing some muscle playing behind the CAATSA smokescreen for F-18 SH, commonality with Navy requirement is also a plus. F-18 recently showed offshore STOBAR capabilities.

I also think that the recent news of Rafale-M coming to GOA for take-off from IN's offshore facility is also not a random coincidence. I think if the MRFA tender is floated, it will be between Rafale and F-18. The winning aircraft will be acquired in phases is what i think.
Or all these will be to put pressure on GoI to show green signal to additional Rafales

F-35 production started even before completing ioc testing. MWF's production can be started before completing foc.

Best plan imho would be to order another batch of 36 rafale & and link it to MWF. If needed another single batch of Rafale can be ordered in future. Induct MWF in numbers until AMCA mk1 comes through & don't wait for AMCA mk2 for induction either.

 

[MonaLazy]

Mk1a doesn't have adequate combat radius for two front war swing.

If you buy Mk1As in enough numbers- deploy them to both borders then maybe they don't need any swinging- fight from their respective bases? Why is our thinking stuck in the '50s-'80s when resources were meagre- there's money, there's capability to manufacture- the only thing lacking is vision in the customer & a sizeable order for the Mk1As. As many as mig-21s (800 or so?) were back in the day. Or if 1 Mk1A = 2x mig-21 then 400, if 1 Mk1A = 3x mig-21 then 250 and so on.. only 123 does not justify the enormous national resources that have gone into this 4 decades long project esp as IAF is drooling over 36+90 MRFA Rafale- if we can have 126 of 4x expensive fighter then why not 4x numbers for Tejas?

 

[Brood Father]

Rafales are now out of the window given they already have a huge order .Getting into Indian defence deal is very painful with so much bureaucracy and with court case going on french will now want to avoid indian market ..
So now good thing would be invest heavily in MK2 and get 2 sqd of Rafales from G2G deal and be done with this stupid argument

 

[pipebomb]

Mwf is dead, import airforce wins again .

It just means GOI has to hard sell MWF to IAF for now. Thats it, nothing more. One time IAF was very keen on importing follow on batches of M2000, what happened to it.

We need more Rafales and it will come but not at the cost of MWF.

 

[MonaLazy]

Rafales are now out of the window given they already have a huge order .Getting into Indian defence deal is very painful with so much bureaucracy and with court case going on french will now want to avoid indian market ..
So now good thing would be invest heavily in MK2 and get 2 sqd of Rafales from G2G deal and be done with this stupid argument

Nope.

90 Rafales will come, if at all, via MII- at DRALs 104 acre Mihan facility. Indian production will not be affected by pressure on French lines. But I pray that some sense gets knocked into IAF and they desist from MRFA- speeding up MWF and AMCA by putting their weight behind it and not derailing the project with unnecessarily long trials or unreasonable ASQRs.

Guru Kota announced in Hamara Tejas Ep-3 that this is his transition plan to desi birds:

• Su-30 >> AMCA
• Mig-21 >> LCA Mk1
• Mig-29, Mirage-2000, Jaguar >> MWF

Hoping IAF adopts this wholeheartedly. Though I suspect this is the service's wish list:

• Su-30 >> AMCA/Su-57/Su-75
• Mig-21 >> LCA Mk1 + Mk2
• Mig-29, Mirage-2000, Jaguar >> Rafale

 

[Covfefe]

Nope.

90 Rafales will come, if at all, via MII- at DRALs 104 acre Mihan facility. Indian production will not be affected by pressure on French lines. But I pray that some sense gets knocked into IAF and they desist from MRFA- speeding up MWF and AMCA by putting their weight behind it and not derailing the project with unnecessarily long trials or unreasonable ASQRs.

Guru Kota announced in Hamara Tejas Ep-3 that this is his transition plan to desi birds:

• Su-30 >> AMCA
• Mig-21 >> LCA Mk1
• Mig-29, Mirage-2000, Jaguar >> MWF

Hoping IAF adopts this wholeheartedly.

For building Mk2 prototypes, the funds will be cleared by CCS as a separate budgetary assistance or to be spent from HAL/ADA's funds only?