ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

2023 First flight MK2 but no Kaveri

It is important that the development of the plane is completed at the earliest. Hence they will not wait for Kaveri but integrate it later after the flight trials in F414 is complete. The question is whether Kaveri is complete or not. And also whether it will be flying in Tejas MK1 or not

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Orginally by @porky_kicker

Wind tunnel models of LCA mk2.

This model solved my doubt. In picture released few days back, it appeared that radome was very short. Prolonging radome was a part of aerodynamic improvement. In picture, it appeared very short but I can see in model that it is long. Raising canopy was also a part of aerodynamic improvement which was not appearing in picture released few days back.It is clearly visible in new model. Look at canopy.

Canards are uniquely placed. I have not seen any plane with Canards in such unique position.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

3300 litre
Internal fuel, MAWS

This should be more. Current tejas has 3000 liter of tank. New plane must have 3300 KG fuel and 3300 Liter.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

This should be more. Current tejas has 3000 liter of tank. New plane must have 3300 KG fuel and 3300 Liter.

3300kg is what was said, not litres. This is from livefist interview. The old Tejas had 2450kg

 

[Saichand K]

This should be more. Current tejas has 3000 liter of tank. New plane must have 3300 KG fuel and 3300 Liter.

You mean Mk-1A has 3000 kgs of internal fuel capacity ?

 

[Enquirer]

Livefist twitter has great updates

First flight in 2023???
All the buzz of Mk2 just evaporated!
It won't go into production until 2028!

 

[Bleh]

First flight in 2023???
All the buzz of Mk2 just evaporated!
It won't go into production until 2028!

Nor necessarily.
Unlike LCA, most of the tech wouldn't have already been achieved with Mark1A by 2021-22? The 1st 4 prototypes can take off with all the features required of FOC variant!

MWF does have pretty drastic redesignings of the airframe & may be tested for just the new flight performances only.

 

[Enquirer]

Nor necessarily.
Unlike LCA, most of the tech wouldn't have already been achieved with Mark1A by 2021-22? The 1st 4 prototypes can take off with all the features required of FOC variant!

MWF does have pretty drastic redesignings of the airframe & may be tested for just the new flight performances only.

4 prototypes....each coming 6 months apart! So, the last one coming out will be in 2025! IOC will be at least 2 years after, FOC another 1-2 years!

A plane with new design will take at the least 5 years to get to FOC.

Just look at LCH! The internal chassis is the exact same as ALH, just the outer shell changed & some other minor mods. How long did that take from the first prototype?
Tejas Mk2 is using EVERYTHING NEW!

 

[proud_indian]

It is important that the development of the plane is completed at the earliest. Hence they will not wait for Kaveri but integrate it later after the flight trials in F414 is complete. The question is whether Kaveri is complete or not. And also whether it will be flying in Tejas MK1 or not

Bhai konsi duniya mei reh raha hai tu

Kaveri isn't even available for AMCA let alone Tejas MK2

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Bhai konsi duniya mei reh raha hai tu

Kaveri isn't even available for AMCA let alone Tejas MK2

AMCA and Tejas MK2 will use same engine. That is why the MTOW of Tejas Mk2 is 17tons. How an it jump from 13.5tons in MK1 to 17 tons in MK2? That is over 20% jump. It is possible only if the engine also saw over 20% jump in thrust. So, 55/85kN engine will have to become 70/105kN. The same thrust is also needed for AMCA. This means that the two engines will be same. The engine thrust will be more than what F414 gives and hence F414 will be unfit. So, eventually a new engine will have to be made.

I thought that both will initially use Kaveri K9 instead of F414 but I was wrong. It appears that that is still sometime from now.

 

[Enquirer]

AMCA and Tejas MK2 will use same engine. That is why the MTOW of Tejas Mk2 is 17tons. How an it jump from 13.5tons in MK1 to 17 tons in MK2? That is over 20% jump. It is possible only if the engine also saw over 20% jump in thrust. So, 55/85kN engine will have to become 70/105kN. The same thrust is also needed for AMCA. This means that the two engines will be same. The engine thrust will be more than what F414 gives and hence F414 will be unfit. So, eventually a new engine will have to be made.

I thought that both will initially use Kaveri K9 instead of F414 but I was wrong. It appears that that is still sometime from now.

16%-17% thrust increase will come from F414
3%-4% improvement will come from better aerodynamic design!
Total - 20%

You batting for Kaveri is commendable; but it doesn't seem to be happening!

 

[Immanuel]

All LCA mk-2 will be powered by F414, Kaveri is not ready till it's ready and that won't be any time soon. IAF which loves imports won't jeopardize the stellar safety record of the LCA without being absolutely sure the Kaveri proves itself. Best chance it makes it into MLU or overhauls of MK-1, MK-1A and eventually MK-2. For the next 5 years Kaveri at best will fly on a few LSPs and will go through a rigorous phase of testing. Then you can best your ass they will ask for some mods and then it would go back to be polished and tested again.

 

[Immanuel]

All LCA mk-2 will be powered by F414, Kaveri is not ready till it's ready and that won't be any time soon. IAF which loves imports won't jeopardize the stellar safety record of the LCA without being absolutely sure the Kaveri proves itself. Best chance it makes it into MLU or overhauls of MK-1, MK-1A and eventually MK-2. For the next 5 years Kaveri at best will fly on a few LSPs and will go through a rigorous phase of testing, after which it will go back to the board because IAF will 'out of the blue' (just before final certification) ask for TVC enhancement. then it will spend another year or two being updated and then back again for testing. By the time it enters service on a MLU or MK-1 LCA to be overhauled it will take another 7-8 years from now.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

16%-17% thrust increase will come from F414
3%-4% improvement will come from better aerodynamic design!
Total - 20%

You batting for Kaveri is commendable; but it doesn't seem to be happening!

The DRDO poster on MWF (someone posted above) shows that MToW (all up weight) is 17.5 tons. That is 4 tons over Tejas MK1 MToW at 13.5tons. This means that the improvement is 400/13.5 percent or close to 30%.

Whatever aerodynamic improvement may have taken place, the improvements is likely to be about 5% at best. So, remaining 25% is from engine thrust itself. This brings to the point the increase in thrust needed from 54/85kN to about 67/106 kN. The 98kN F414 falls short by 10% required wet thrust. Another aspect here is dry thrust. The dry thrust of F414 is just 59kN whereas that of F404 is 54kN. So, the improvements is only 9%. This also falls short of requirement by about 13%.

I don't think this much thrust deficiency will be accepted. There is bound to be development of new 70/110kN engine.

All LCA mk-2 will be powered by F414, Kaveri is not ready till it's ready and that won't be any time soon. IAF which loves imports won't jeopardize the stellar safety record of the LCA without being absolutely sure the Kaveri proves itself. Best chance it makes it into MLU or overhauls of MK-1, MK-1A and eventually MK-2. For the next 5 years Kaveri at best will fly on a few LSPs and will go through a rigorous phase of testing. Then you can best your ass they will ask for some mods and then it would go back to be polished and tested again.

IAF is not the decider but government is. Also due to above calculation, it is unfeasible to use F414 except as testing phase due to requirement being about 10% higher than what F414 can offer.

I am guessing that K9 engine with 90kN thrust will remain useless as the Tejas MK1 will be produced only in limited quantity before being phased out for MWF.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

You mean Mk-1A has 3000 kgs of internal fuel capacity ?

3000 liters ...........................................................

 

[HariPrasad-1]

AMCA and Tejas MK2 will use same engine. That is why the MTOW of Tejas Mk2 is 17tons. How an it jump from 13.5tons in MK1 to 17 tons in MK2? That is over 20% jump. It is possible only if the engine also saw over 20% jump in thrust. So, 55/85kN engine will have to become 70/105kN. The same thrust is also needed for AMCA. This means that the two engines will be same. The engine thrust will be more than what F414 gives and hence F414 will be unfit. So, eventually a new engine will have to be made.

I thought that both will initially use Kaveri K9 instead of F414 but I was wrong. It appears that that is still sometime from now.

Theoretically, to have a MTOW of 17.5 tons, dry thrust requirement is 70 KN dry. People some time say that GE 414 with some 58 KN dry thrust shall be required which is utterly wrong. You are right. According to me, the ideal engine for MK2 and AMCA is EJ 230 with some 72 KN dry and 108 KN afterburner with TWC. We must do agreement with Euro jet. They already have offered.

 

[Enquirer]

Theoretically, to have a MTOW of 17.5 tons, dry thrust requirement is 70 KN dry. People some time say that GE 414 with some 58 KN dry thrust shall be required which is utterly wrong. You are right. According to me, the ideal engine for MK2 and AMCA is EJ 230 with some 72 KN dry and 108 KN afterburner with TWC. We must do agreement with Euro jet. They already have offered.

Guys! Let's not conjure up things based on wrong data!

Gripen E (which uses the F414 variants that's slightly inferior to that used by ) India claims it has a dry thrust of more than 64KN

 

[vishnugupt]

What was that when V K Saraswat used to say about LCA mk2 5-6 years back?? the design is ready, Sub vendors have been selected, going to fly next year end ...blah blah. Now we get a very different design from the previous one still not finalised.
Design of MK2 look very promising which incorporates all sophisticated features though timeline seem disappointing ( not too late) but still will have huge potential within IAF because low cost fighter will always a need even after 2050, especially in peacetime
But aeronautics is a very risky business, As we can see a drastic design change and the introduction of new avionics in MK2 so a delay is bound to happen. Furthermore, No kick back on the horizon, our IAF will activate Ajay Shukla type journalist around 2025 and they will start writing about the shortcoming of MK2. Political factors also important
The indirect probability of seeing AMCA induction in IAF is very low because most of us will be dead.
so enjoy, appreciate and love ADA LCA MK2

 

[Enquirer]

Given the timeline for Mk2, I think the MMRCA order for 110 aircraft will be a definite go!
Earlier, I used to be skeptical if the new MMRCA tendering process will go on or not, but now I am certain!

Who knows if IAF assumed that MMRCA will definitely fetch them 110 aircraft in the short term & pushed ADA to go for a big bang redesign??

Ideally, I would have thought that unnecessary changes would be avoided in the interests of time!

 

[vishnugupt]

Given the timeline for Mk2, I think the MMRCA order for 110 aircraft will be a definite go!
Earlier, I used to be skeptical if the new MMRCA tendering process will go on or not, but now I am certain!

Who knows if IAF assumed that MMRCA will definitely fetch them 110 aircraft in the short term & pushed ADA to go for a big bang redesign??

Ideally, I would have thought that unnecessary changes would be avoided in the interests of time!

I don't think this will going to happen for two reasons
1) Mk1a in pipeline, Mig29, Additional Su30mki, Rafale, Delaying phage out of Mig 27
1) buying big-ticket arms would be a political headache for any party in India. BJP has confidence but they prefer indigenous solution over a headache ( Rafale taught them a good lesson). For UPA ( Thugbandhan ), forget jets they will not dare to buy even a tyre due to fear, mistrust among allies and leaders