ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Pandeyji]

That's not correct, tech demonstrator programmes all over the world, are aimed on developments of technologies, but with limited financial expenditures and no mass production. So if your aim is only, to improve the capability in R&D, such a programme is all that we need => NLCA MK1.

However, when you aim the development with mass production in mind, you need to comply to the operational requirements of the customer. If that isn't achieved, there will only be limited or no orders => Arjun, LCA MK1 IOC/FOC.

Not to mention that, Make in India / production of foreign products in India, also improves our manufacturing capability, even if the product is not ordered by Indian forces.

R&D is useless without actual mass production.

 

[lcafanboy]

Cockpit seem to be elevated. May be LCA tejas Mk1. Landing rears look different too. are they taken out of body to release some space in fuselage for LRU readjustment or fuel?

It's naval LCA not Air force version....

 

[Filtercoffee]

WHat old stuff will remain in Mig 21 thereafter?

Airframe, nostalgia, stories of young and the old and complete dominance for air tactics due to experience since the 60's. 200 mig 21 upgraded wont be too bad also weapon stations can be modified to carry 25-50% more in weight and number.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Cockpit seem to be elevated. May be LCA tejas Mk1. Landing rears look different too. are they taken out of body to release some space in fuselage for LRU readjustment or fuel?

It maybe be that the designer had his own additions for current architecture of the airframe, also it maybe that he has LRU designs, quicker to change or replace. Fuel never was a problem to change even be it other designers, always transient; what can it be? I hope that this is resolved quickly otherwise its not needed in this thread, due to exacting and evolving accuracy of the subject for its time line for future reference.

 

[rone]

India selects IAI/Elta Systems radar and EW suite for Tejas LCA Mk 1A

Industry sources told Jane's that the deal for ELM-2052 fire control radars and pod-mounted ELL-8222WB (wide band) self-protection jamming pods was "quietly" signed in late October after IAI/Elta emerged as the lowest bidder for the two compatible systems.

https://www.janes.com/article/85107...ystems-radar-and-ew-suite-for-tejas-lca-mk-1a
great news no access to mk1 thread so posting here

 

[Enquirer]

India selects IAI/Elta Systems radar and EW suite for Tejas LCA Mk 1A

Industry sources told Jane's that the deal for ELM-2052 fire control radars and pod-mounted ELL-8222WB (wide band) self-protection jamming pods was "quietly" signed in late October after IAI/Elta emerged as the lowest bidder for the two compatible systems.

https://www.janes.com/article/85107...ystems-radar-and-ew-suite-for-tejas-lca-mk-1a
great news no access to mk1 thread so posting here

That’s interesting! Thought they were going with DRDO’s SPJ !!!

 

[HariPrasad-1]

It maybe be that the designer had his own additions for current architecture of the airframe, also it maybe that he has LRU designs, quicker to change or replace. Fuel never was a problem to change even be it other designers, always transient; what can it be? I hope that this is resolved quickly otherwise its not needed in this thread, due to exacting and evolving accuracy of the subject for its time line for future reference.

Elevited cockpit is a part of aerodynamic improvement you will see in mk1 +.

 

[Chinmoy]

India doesn't need to be in a war, the goal for the forces, is to be prepared for one! You don't wait for it to happen and then start adding capability somehow.

Correct................ Now for the upcoming MRCA we would have to wait another 3 or 4 years. What if India gets into a confrontation by that time?

Fist of all, 40 are on order so far, 20 x IOC and 20 x FOC.
Secondly, what do you mean with waiting for the first flight? They evaluated what ADA developed and came to the conclusion that it doesn't meet the requirements. Just as IN, who were part of the NLCA development, evaluated the fighter after it was available and came to the same conclusions. Both IAF and IN are dependent on what ADA/HAL provides them. The forces only set the general guide lines, they don't draw, design and produce the product.

I mean one plain simple thing. Level of participation by the customer and the extent of support.

Again a lot of false statement's. IAF wanted R73/R77 initially, because those missiles were available. Early LCAs even used R60s for test flights, but just as R60 was replaced over time, the long delay in the LCA programme, caused standard modernisation of systems and weapons in IAF and since no indigenous alternatives were available, foreign radar, EW and weapons need to be integrated. Imagine FOC would still wait for Astra, which also is only in LSP so far and how that would have led to more delays.

R73 is a CCM and R77 is a MRAAM. Anyway even if that is the case, why insist on Derby which is a BVRAAM for FOC? And what is the point of assisting systems like Kh-59 and Kh-35 with it? My point is what is IAFs doctrine for Tejas? Do they have any or do they want is as a bomb truck?

Not if the developer knows what he does, or has experienced development partners at hand. Nobody forced ADA to do everything on their own, CAG even blamed ADA, for not listening to EADS/Airbus, who were hired as a consultant, but their suggestions were particularly ignored, because ADA thought they know it better.

Oh is it?

https://web.archive.org/web/2009030...elected_articles/Vayu special/remembrance.htm

Read this. As usual our politicians played havoc with this project from time to time and all the while IAF had not put their feet down. They always floated along with politburo for one reason or another.

Not really, the 20 x FOC were ordered in 2010 under UPA and again, IAF approves the capabilities of the product and therefore the MK1A standard, not MoD. So without IAF support, the Tejas programme would be dead by now.

BANGALORE: The Indian Air Force has categorically ruled out placing further orders for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, with its current configuration.

https://www.thehindu.com/todays-pap...sists-on-changes-to-Tejas/article15355169.ece

This is in 2008. Its only when ADA came up with the interim solution of Mk1A, IAF had agreed to it. Even we all know that it was a half hearted agreement on part of IAF.

Both incorrect. FOC will get the same pulse doppler radar as IOC, only MK1A and later MK2, will get AESA, because that's the state of the art radar technology today. That's why IAF upgraded Jaguar from the same pulse doppler radar, probably to the same AESA radar as well. No fighter upgrade or new order that comes now, will have less than AESA radar technology.
Also IFR is crucial for air defence fighters as well, to extend the endurance of a patrol mission. Same reason why, Mig 29 or Mirage 2000 added that capability too. Any modern 4th gen fighter has IFR capability, so let's not pretend, that IAF asked for something highly advanced here.

I do agree on AESA RADAR part, but when it comes to IFR, Tejas current combat radius without IFR is 500 km. Means it could easily carry out a basic patrolling duty with drop tanks and AAM for 1000 km. Now again same question arises, Doctrine. How IAF want to use Tejas?

Because still in presence of asset like Mig 21 and multi role Mirage, IAF used MKI to shoot down balloon. So what kind of active patrolling IAF wants Tejas to perform? Because in event of any skirmish or heightened tension, we woud be using our front line fighter to patrol our air space rather then 2nd line of fighters.

That's not all what he said =>

https://wap.business-standard.com/a...-navy-by-2022-sunil-lanba-117120100940_1.html

That was probably the most honest assessment of any official, not only addressing the delays, but also it's operational shortfalls. The max official criticism of IAF, was calling it a Mig 21++, or 3.5 gen fighter, just as stating that LCA is not good enough to defend India alone.

You are just cherry picking what you want to hear. This is what Adm Lanba said earlier. But in recent interview he clearly mentioned that IN is working in close collaboration with designing authority to make NLCA deck worthy. Could you cherry pick any such quote from IAF side? IAF is more interested in what they need rather then working towards what they need. This is basic difference between approach of IN and IAF.

Moreover my only concern is shortsigtedness of IAF. They had created an ASR for Tejas and didn't mention integration of gun in it whereas Tejas has been envisioned to replace Mig 21. Even it has not been enforced in IOC whereas it is THE most vital equipment in any fighter. Rather then IFR, in my opinion they should have insisted on this. Because even in case of active patrol, a onboard gun is more important then IFR.

 

[G10]

This thread has either derailed or header does not represent what we are discussing here. Tejas mk1 Mk1a are different from mk2.

 

[Kharavela]

Kharavela how about MiG 21s with latest tailor made avionics, radar, EW suite, IFR, new materials added to the airframe and a full glass cockpit with a new engine for super cruise? Easiest way to retain the fleet.

Ask the creators of MiG 21 (Russians) whether they can do such upgradation without redesigning the aircraft !!

Had these been possible, MiG Corporation would have surely considered fitting latest tailor made things you mentioned. After all, MiG 21 has the distinction of highest number of exported fighter aircraft. Such upgradation would have become money spinner for Russia.

Sent from my ASUS_X00TD using Tapatalk

 

[vampyrbladez]

Ask the creators of MiG 21 (Russians) whether they can do such upgradation without redesigning the aircraft !!

Had these been possible, MiG Corporation would have surely considered fitting latest tailor made things you mentioned. After all, MiG 21 has the distinction of highest number of exported fighter aircraft. Such upgradation would have become money spinner for Russia.

Sent from my ASUS_X00TD using Tapatalk

That was the MiG 33's original purpose, before it was redesigned into twin engine MiG 29.

 

[Filtercoffee]

It should be that UAC already know the reason why not. There are chances for effort in the future I should hope for it. Atleast a full glass cockpit display unit and a good engine. World wide no one but IAI have made some changes for to try leading to conclusions but that was a while in time. Now by time I mean the timeline of the aircraft and by now far from late to it would be to incorporate. Just like Darin 3, and why not; it isnt difficult for the aircraft industry. Every air show has improved, new and cheaper but effective products. And that is beautiful to think and observe about it to some. So to every emotionally flight progressive person is possible.

 

[Filtercoffee]

...Content for the...

Hindustan Aeronautics limited.

Light Combat Aircraft.

........... Mark 2 .............


.........Thread only..........

 

[Chinmoy]

Now comes this............

Israeli radar means Tejas aircraft won't have world-class Meteor missile

Equipping the Tejas Mark 1A with Elta’s ELM-2052 radar will ensure the fighter never carries the world-beating Meteor “beyond visual range” (BVR) air-to-air missile. MBDA, the European consortium that builds the Meteor, has repeatedly told the IAF that it would only fit that missile onto a fighter with a European airborne radar. Choosing an Elta AESA radar for the Tejas Mark 1A, therefore, rules out the Meteor and, with it, any hope that the IAF with buy the Mark 1A in significant numbers.

In 2017, the IAF issued a formal tender to HAL — termed request for proposal (RFP) — stipulating that the Tejas Mark 1A must have the Meteor and ASRAAM.

I don't know whether Ajai Shukla is stating truth or not. But if there is even a percentage of truth in it........... It shows how serious IAF is regarding Tejas. If there is such a condition on METEOR, even the frontline fighter MKI would not have it. Then why IAF is hell bound on integrating it with Tejas?

All through this year, the IAF has known that MBDA would allow the Meteor missile to be integrated only with European (or, conditionally Indian) AESA radars. Yet, the IAF remained silent while HAL’s tendering processes resulted in the selection of the Israeli ELM 2052 AESA radar — and the rejection of two European AESA radars offered by French firm Thales, and Swedish firm Saab.

https://www.business-standard.com/a...orld-class-meteor-missile-118120900547_1.html

 

[Pret]

Thales proposal had 'expansive' written all over it. That article was Ajai Shukla's opinion, not IAF's. EL/M-2052 was a logical choice.
1. It's cheap and already in Indian service.
2. Plug and integration with Israeli long-range AAM Derby-ER. It would save India at least $50 million.
3. Meteor is the most expansive BVRAAM, It won't be mainstay BVRAAM of IAF. That role would go to Astra. Ah yes, Astra integration with European radar, another expansive proposal.

 

[Enquirer]

Now comes this............

Israeli radar means Tejas aircraft won't have world-class Meteor missile





I don't know whether Ajai Shukla is stating truth or not. But if there is even a percentage of truth in it........... It shows how serious IAF is regarding Tejas. If there is such a condition on METEOR, even the frontline fighter MKI would not have it. Then why IAF is hell bound on integrating it with Tejas?



https://www.business-standard.com/a...orld-class-meteor-missile-118120900547_1.html

Ajai Shukla, as usual, is high on weed and low on IQ!!!

To talk about Meteor integration with Tejas is such a joke! Tejas doesn't have the power/thrust to support a high-powered/heavy radar. How can a 150km-180km ranged radar (that Tejas can support) offer targeting cues to ~200kms ranged Meteor?? Even if India had accepted Thales AESA bid, it would have only received a down-sized/down-powered version of RBE-2 radar that Thales specially designed to fit into Tejas (and not the full sized RBE-2 that goes into Rafale!). As such Thales winning the bid would also NOT have facilitated Meteor integration with Tejas.

IAF had never considered such an impractical option of Meteor integration with Tejas! Meteor integration was only considered for Su-30MKI; and Thales refused to integrate it with a Russian radar!!

Ajai Shukla (as usual) deserves a kick on the butt for misleading folks with his idiocy.

 

[Chinmoy]

Ajai Shukla, as usual, is high on weed and low on IQ!!!

To talk about Meteor integration with Tejas is such a joke! Tejas doesn't have the power/thrust to support a high-powered/heavy radar. How can a 150km-180km ranged radar (that Tejas can support) offer targeting cues to ~200kms ranged Meteor?? Even if India had accepted Thales AESA bid, it would have only received a down-sized/down-powered version of RBE-2 radar that Thales specially designed to fit into Tejas (and not the full sized RBE-2 that goes into Rafale!). As such Thales winning the bid would also NOT have facilitated Meteor integration with Tejas.

IAF had never considered such an impractical option of Meteor integration with Tejas! Meteor integration was only considered for Su-30MKI; and Thales refused to integrate it with a Russian radar!!

Ajai Shukla (as usual) deserves a kick on the butt for misleading folks with his idiocy.

Yeah.......... People like him should be prosecuted for stating that IAF mentioned specifically of ASRAAM and METEOR in its RFP.

 

[cyclops]

Now comes this............

Israeli radar means Tejas aircraft won't have world-class Meteor missile





I don't know whether Ajai Shukla is stating truth or not. But if there is even a percentage of truth in it........... It shows how serious IAF is regarding Tejas. If there is such a condition on METEOR, even the frontline fighter MKI would not have it. Then why IAF is hell bound on integrating it with Tejas?



https://www.business-standard.com/a...orld-class-meteor-missile-118120900547_1.html

@Armand2REP
Any comments?
Do these so called "letters" hold any water?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

To talk about Meteor integration with Tejas is such a joke! Tejas doesn't have the power/thrust to support a high-powered/heavy radar. How can a 150km-180km ranged radar (that Tejas can support) offer targeting cues to ~200kms ranged Meteor?? Even if India had accepted Thales AESA bid, it would have only received a down-sized/down-powered version of RBE-2 radar that Thales specially designed to fit into Tejas (and not the full sized RBE-2 that goes into Rafale!). As such Thales winning the bid would also NOT have facilitated Meteor integration with Tejas.

Very logical. I fully agree with this analysis

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Now comes this............

Israeli radar means Tejas aircraft won't have world-class Meteor missile





I don't know whether Ajai Shukla is stating truth or not. But if there is even a percentage of truth in it........... It shows how serious IAF is regarding Tejas. If there is such a condition on METEOR, even the frontline fighter MKI would not have it. Then why IAF is hell bound on integrating it with Tejas?



https://www.business-standard.com/a...orld-class-meteor-missile-118120900547_1.html

Not even required. Against whom are you going to pit LCA tejas? Are they some fifth generation plane with some ultra long range BVR? Tejas will face AIM at the most integrated with some old F 16 radars. ELTA 2052 and integrated I derby with 100 km + range is more than a match against anything China or Pakistan can come up with in next decade after tejas starts using it. Even Astra shall be more than enough for any Chinese Pakistani plane.