ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

Advaidhya Tiwari

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That's why I always say.... STUDY.

Why you think there is always talk of cost overrun if cost is not an issue in R&D? India don't have a separate budget for R&D. Even if we would have, then too for any project, government would talk about its cost and return at very first place.

Whatever you are saying is just theory and doesn't hold ground in practical. From time to time government could increase amount sanctioned to a project, but without numbers, they are not going to do it infinitely.

Moreover I provided link. Read it for its history.
I have also told this several times that the congress govt used to use cost as an excuse to sabotage defence due to foreign influence. So, first think properly before looking at people's opinions including opinions of govt. Defence R&D is about security of lives. Such things have no cost barriers. Even if it means all people have to live in huts to fund R&D, that will be highest priority. As long as FOREX is not used, the money has no limits. Only forex is the limiting factor. Internal money can be redistributed according to needs unless the intent is to sabotage.
 

Chinmoy

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I have also told this several times that the congress govt used to use cost as an excuse to sabotage defence due to foreign influence. So, first think properly before looking at people's opinions including opinions of govt. Defence R&D is about security of lives. Such things have no cost barriers. Even if it means all people have to live in huts to fund R&D, that will be highest priority. As long as FOREX is not used, the money has no limits. Only forex is the limiting factor. Internal money can be redistributed according to needs unless the intent is to sabotage.
You are free to live in your dream world. But the harsh truth is, no government irrespective of which wing you talk is going to push money into defence projects which are not acceptable anywhere.

The reason why government is increasing the FDI and relaxing norms to encourage more and more private indulgence in defence industry only shows how much they think of cost factor in this area.

Now you are free to go and build up whatever notion you like, but that's the truth.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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You are free to live in your dream world. But the harsh truth is, no government irrespective of which wing you talk is going to push money into defence projects which are not acceptable anywhere.
Obviously, none will invest in unusable things. But what is usable or not is not dependent on whims and fancies but on objectives and situation. You are trying to bring in whims and fancies or discretionary power as the reason to select technology but that is not the case

The reason why government is increasing the FDI and relaxing norms to encourage more and more private indulgence in defence industry only shows how much they think of cost factor in this area.
Private industry is to reduce inefficiency of govt PSU due to red-tapes. In fact, govt is losing more money on bringing private companies as these are charging through their nose additional charges to set up infrastructure. But in the long run, wars will be easy to win if there is highly efficient means of production. FDI is solely menat as technology offset rather than getting money for India.

The problem with you is that you don't understand economy but spin your own theory which are highly inconsistent with real world. What matters in real world is result and only that path which leads to result in most efficient manner is the best path. Unless you can give me reasons as to how spending govt money on important defence technology development is not optimal, you are just speaking anything and everything
 

Chinmoy

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Obviously, none will invest in unusable things. But what is usable or not is not dependent on whims and fancies but on objectives and situation. You are trying to bring in whims and fancies or discretionary power as the reason to select technology but that is not the case
Exactly.... Investments are done in projects. Tejas is not a project anymore. It has been upgraded to a product. Now to sustain its further development one has to sell it and increase its order for funds flow.

Private industry is to reduce inefficiency of govt PSU due to red-tapes. In fact, govt is losing more money on bringing private companies as these are charging through their nose additional charges to set up infrastructure. But in the long run, wars will be easy to win if there is highly efficient means of production. FDI is solely menat as technology offset rather than getting money for India.

The problem with you is that you don't understand economy but spin your own theory which are highly inconsistent with real world. What matters in real world is result and only that path which leads to result in most efficient manner is the best path. Unless you can give me reasons as to how spending govt money on important defence technology development is not optimal, you are just speaking anything and everything
Yeah.... Government is losing money just to increase production. So true.

I agree with you that I have zero knowledge of economics and you are an exceptionally knowledgeable person in this regard. I think you should also share some knowledge with government who is emphasizing on increasing the indigenous content in our armed forces to save billions on rupees.
Creating and amending DPP to bring in more investors and investments instead of making policy to pour more funds from state treasury.

Sorry that Dr Christopher is no longer in helm of DRDO. Else I would have written to him to consult you on economics of R&D, because this is what he said.

DRDO chief S Christopher raised a red flag on Wednesday saying DRDO lacked funds for critical defence projects and also rued the government’s cold shoulder in catering to manpower shortage in the organisation.

The eminent scientist was picked up by the Modi government as the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) chief in May, four months after the unceremonious exit of Avinash Chander who was terminated 15 months before his contract was to end.

On the occasion of the the 39th Directors’Conference of DRDO here, Christopher said that there was a need for augmentation of scientific manpower and a mere 5-6% of defence budget for R&D was inadequate to meet the aspirations of India's defence needs especially when China spent about 20% of their defence budget for the same.
https://www.dnaindia.com/india/repo...ed-flag-over-fund-and-manpower-crunch-2128236

He should not have talked about fund crunch as it is unlimited for defence projects. He should have known the fact.
 
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Advaidhya Tiwari

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Exactly.... Investments are done in projects. Tejas is not a project anymore. It has been upgraded to a product. Now to sustain its further development one has to sell it and increase its order for funds flow.
Tejas MK1 FOC, MK1A and Mk2 are still projects. So, money has to be spent on these. The ultimate intent is to develop MK2 as MK1 is too small for comfort. Hence till MK2 is ready, Tejas will be considered to be in development

I think you should also share some knowledge with government who is emphasizing on increasing the indigenous content in our armed forces to save billions on rupees.
Indigenus content must be increased as defence is a critical need and can't be valued in money. It is imperative that India gets all its defence needs met indigenously to ensure that India can remain strong and independent. It is not to save money but to maintain independence and protect the lives and culture from evil forces

He should not have talked about fund crunch as it is unlimited for defence projects. He should have known the fact.
This was 2015 when there was significant problems to DRDO due to UPA govt sabotaging it. The fund crunch to R&D can happen but not because of lack of funds but because the govt is treasonous and is sabotaging defence. So, when the govt is not good, there will be serious fund crunch. Modi govt can't change the situation in just 1 year as getting right personnel, drafting new policies and designing new products take lot of time
 

Chinmoy

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Tejas MK1 FOC, MK1A and Mk2 are still projects. So, money has to be spent on these. The ultimate intent is to develop MK2 as MK1 is too small for comfort. Hence till MK2 is ready, Tejas will be considered to be in development


Indigenus content must be increased as defence is a critical need and can't be valued in money. It is imperative that India gets all its defence needs met indigenously to ensure that India can remain strong and independent. It is not to save money but to maintain independence and protect the lives and culture from evil forces


This was 2015 when there was significant problems to DRDO due to UPA govt sabotaging it. The fund crunch to R&D can happen but not because of lack of funds but because the govt is treasonous and is sabotaging defence. So, when the govt is not good, there will be serious fund crunch. Modi govt can't change the situation in just 1 year as getting right personnel, drafting new policies and designing new products take lot of time
Then go and ask MOD why they have objected to the per unit cost of Tejas quoted by HAL against the RFP floated by IAF.
Go and ask ex IAF Chief Arup Raha what he meant when he said that to support Tejas, IAF would order 20 more aircrafts after the initial batch of 20. What support he was talking about?
 

cyclops

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Now comes this............

Israeli radar means Tejas aircraft won't have world-class Meteor missile





I don't know whether Ajai Shukla is stating truth or not. But if there is even a percentage of truth in it........... It shows how serious IAF is regarding Tejas. If there is such a condition on METEOR, even the frontline fighter MKI would not have it. Then why IAF is hell bound on integrating it with Tejas?



https://www.business-standard.com/a...orld-class-meteor-missile-118120900547_1.html
AVM Manmohan Bahadur confirms AESA isn't necessary for BVR thereby debunking Shookla ji's rhetoric.

 

Chinmoy

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AVM Manmohan Bahadur confirms AESA isn't necessary for BVR thereby debunking Shookla ji's rhetoric.

Shukla ji is always high on Manipuri weeds. He dreams something on bed and writes the same on paper whenever he feels constipated. BVR and AESA are totally unrelated anyway.

I just wonder how he mentioned that IAF has asked for these things in very first place.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Then go and ask MOD why they have objected to the per unit cost of Tejas quoted by HAL against the RFP floated by IAF.
Go and ask ex IAF Chief Arup Raha what he meant when he said that to support Tejas, IAF would order 20 more aircrafts after the initial batch of 20. What support he was talking about?
Why do you listen to the presstitutes everytime? The cost of Tejas was high because of infrastructure cost. There is nothing that causes alarm. It is a fixed cost. The cost goes something like this - 20000 crore for infrastructure and 200 crore per plane. So, if you order 10 planes, cost pwr plane will be 2200 crore. But the cost is only notional.

Even if no orders were given, there would have been Tejas manufacturing ability. It would have been developed but assembled by hand as it is in case of first 40 Tejas. This has caused problem in terms of spare parts and modularity. So, they want to have machine made parts and hence build infrastructure for it. This additional infrastructure is only for manufacturing efficiently rather than for technology. Hence it needs orders to be built. The orders only make manufacturing more efficient, not get new technology
 

FactsPlease

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LCA Tejas will meet deadline

The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is the nodal agency for the LCA programme, is confident of meeting this deadline...
...Aeronautical Development Agency Director Girish S Deodhare told Bangalore Mirror that the FOC deadline would not be missed and that it would take place by the end of December.

I know. Old news, but since hardly find any official source for latest update (on FOC) (and I know people talked about mid-2019, NOT official nonetheless). Or I miss anything?

Will ADA stick to its schedule?
 

Chinmoy

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Why do you listen to the presstitutes everytime? The cost of Tejas was high because of infrastructure cost. There is nothing that causes alarm. It is a fixed cost. The cost goes something like this - 20000 crore for infrastructure and 200 crore per plane. So, if you order 10 planes, cost pwr plane will be 2200 crore. But the cost is only notional.

Even if no orders were given, there would have been Tejas manufacturing ability. It would have been developed but assembled by hand as it is in case of first 40 Tejas. This has caused problem in terms of spare parts and modularity. So, they want to have machine made parts and hence build infrastructure for it. This additional infrastructure is only for manufacturing efficiently rather than for technology. Hence it needs orders to be built. The orders only make manufacturing more efficient, not get new technology
Who is talking about technology here? I am talking on financial aspect of any project.

Do you think government don't know about the infrastructure cost? Do you think the project report submitted by HAL doesn't cover this aspect? Then why you think MoD is asking for show cause on the price of the plane? By your logic it is of strategic importance and funding should be made available irrespective of any cause or cost. Right? Then why on earth government is questioning the price?

In any such kind of defence project, two vital things are of utmost importance. Time and Money. When a customer ask you to design any equipment, the first thing they would ask you is the timeline of its completion and cost factor involved in it. Then when you submit the proposal, the vital points shared is the time it would take to complete the project and the cost of various assembly and sub assembly associated with it. Another vital point which is taken into account is time extension for any unforseen reason. When this point is added, the default point associated with it is always cost escalation in the project.

After all these, if there occurs any such situation where cost increment is inevitable, developer has to give proper justification on basis of which any further investment is done. In case of Tejas with the development of final prototype it has crossed the project realization stage. Now it is a product and its the client who incurs the cost of product building. Government is not going to support the product cost infinitely. Even for infrastructure, HAL would have to show order to justify their price. Every fund request would eventually go to FM for realization. FM is not going to see each and every thing in strategic value. They would look it through financial gain or loss because at the end of the day they are responsible to answer the tax payers.
 

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HAL Is Working To Deliver Remaining Tejas To IAF By March 2019’


State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) has of late been under fire from different quarters. It has been rapped for inordinate delays in the delivery of Tejas and Sukhoi aircraft to the Indian Air Force. Also, the cancellation of the $20-billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 fighters from Rafale has been blamed by the political masters on HAL’s incapability to handle such a project. BW Businessworld’s Manish Kumar Jha caught up with HAL CMD R. Madhvan to discuss these issues as well as those pertaining to its future plans.

Excerpts:

What is next that will define HAL?
We intend to pursue three broad strategies to exploit our competitive strengths and grow our business. The first strategies is to expand operations through partnerships or collaboration. Thus, in addition to organic growth through our research, design and development efforts, we have historically relied, and continue to rely, on alliances to gain access to new technologies. We co-develop products with our partners in order to improve the sharing of know-how and reduce risks and time involved in developing new products such as advanced Hawk aircraft.

We also collaborate with our partners to provide product support and services to our customers. We have a joint venture with Safran Helicopter Engines for providing maintenance repair and overhaul services for the Safran TM 333 and our Shakti engines that power HAL-built helicopters. A special purpose vehicle (SPV) comprising NAL, ADA and HAL has been formed to develop the Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA). Apart from foreign OEMs, we are working with leading Indian R&D organisations and institutions such as DRDO laboratories, IITs and Indian Institute of Science (IISc) Bangalore to achieve self-reliance in aviation.

The second strategy is to diversify through expansion in new growth areas. We have conducted an analysis of our product portfolio and identified opportunities that can become potential revenue lines for HAL. These include opportunities in indigenous aircraft and helicopter aero-engines, helicopters for military and civil roles, UAVs and civil transport aircraft.

We have initiated the design and development of the Hindustan Turbo Fan Engine (HTFE-25), a 25 kN thrust-class turbofan engine, and the Hindustan Turbo Shaft Engine (HTSE-1200), a 1,200 KW shaft power engine. We have also initiated the design and development of UAV of 8-kg class to meet the emerging needs of military, paramilitary, police and civil sectors. We intend to enter the market for larger UAVs with the Rustom-II Medium-Altitude Long Endurance (MALE) UAV which we are jointly developing with Aeronautical Development Establishment, Bangalore. Moreover, given the growth of civil aviation in India, we believe opportunity exists to position Dornier 228 aircraft for civil applications in view of the government’s regional initiative to connect airports in small cities in India.

We also intend to expand the export of our products as well as aero-structures, avionics, spares and services in international markets. Although we continue to focus on selling our products globally, we are specially committed to applying and receiving regulatory approvals for our products to be sold in Latin America, South-East Asia and West Africa, which we believe are high growth markets for our products.

The third key strategy is to develop in-house capabilities to design and develop specialized products. We continuously seek to design, develop and deliver new products to meet our customer’s evolving needs while also upgrading our existing product lines. We are currently pursuing design, development and production of Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), the HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft, mini UAV, and the HTFE-25 and HTSE-1200 engines.

Could you tell us about the future roadmap for Tejas? Is it itself a potent weapon or a building block for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)?
Given the fighter jet’s long journey, its handing over to the Indian Air Force (IAF) in 2015 was certainly a big moment for Indian aerospace in general and HAL in particular. Tejas, a supersonic fighter jet, is likely to replace the ageing MiG-21 jets, which the IAF plans to phase out eventually. It has been a great journey to build a four and a half generation fighter jet which is comparable to the F-16 and better than MiG-21.

Presently, production of LCA Tejas Mk-I in Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration is under progress at HAL. A total of 20 aircraft are to be delivered to IAF as per IOC contract, out of which nine have been delivered. This will be followed by production of 20 aircraft in Final Operational Clearance (FOC) configuration. Delivery of all these aircraft is likely to be completed by 2022.

Learnings from IOC and FOC-configured LCA Tejas Mk-I is being used in the development of Mk-IA which will incorporate advanced, state-of-the-art systems like Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missile, Unified Electronic Warfare System, Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile and upgraded avionics. Proposal for production of 83 such aircraft is with the Ministry of Defence.

The AMCA is presently under development with Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA). Learnings from LCA Mk-I and Mk-IA configurations will go a long way in the design, development and manufacture of AMCA.

In a recent statement to media, IAF has blamed HAL for the delays. What is your take on that?
See, these are two are different things — capability and capacity to produce on time. If you look at Hawk, we delivered it on time. Sukhoi got delayed because of a delay in technology transfer by the Russians. This is going to come at the end of next year. We have been consistently delivering the aircraft. So, this year we will produce 12 and next year we will produce 12 and then we will close the Sukhoi project. All other projects we have delivered on time.
There is some delay on LCA as FOC is yet to come. Even though the order was placed with us in 2006, the IOC came in 2013 from Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and that is why we could not start production. Even after IOC, there were a large number of drawing changes and amendments, and as a result we could hardly produce anything in the first two years. Now, as we try to stabilise it, FOC is going to come in December. If it doesn’t, there might be problems next year, as we have set up assembly lines for 16 aircraft. This was also understood by the Secretary for Defence Production. Assuming that FOC comes in December, we are also making the structure parallely — believing that there will be no more changes in the drawing. So next year, we will be able to meet the targets. In case of a delay in FOC or other complications, we may not be able to meet the target. In respect of all other platforms we are on time.

HAL has delivered only one Tejas aircraft this fiscal. You are supposed to deliver 10-12 Tejas until the end of the fiscal year. What is causing the delay?
The LCA programme is based on the philosophy of concurrent engineering, which means, design and production progress simultaneously. Aircraft configuration evolves based on the experience gained during design and production. Further, multiple agencies at various geographical locations need to liaise with one another to arrive at an optimum solution for each issue. This requires close coordination and assigning priority to each task. In such an ecosystem some delays are inevitable.

Presently, LCA Tejas has a matured platform and production issues are being resolved with the active support of all agencies. An investment of Rs 1,381 crore has been finalised for ramping up the production capacity from eight to 16 aircraft per year by March 2020. A parallel production line is being established at HAL Aircraft Division to expedite output. Major assembly modules have been outsourced to tier-I vendors to enhance capacity. However, production of FOC-standard LCA can happen only after clearance from the design agency.

What do you have to say about the MMRCA cancellation controversy?
We have no comments to offer on the Rafael deal.

What do you think of supporting and developing private entities in the defence aviation space? Any recent collaboration/partnerships?
Over the years, HAL has been encouraging private participation through outsourcing. Initially, outsourcing was restricted to machined components, sheet metal work and tooling. Subsequently, with private industries establishing capabilities to supply airborne items, aircraft / helicopter sub-assemblies and assemblies which can directly fit on aircraft / helicopter, major work packages are now being outsourced. Currently, work equivalent of 30 per cent of HAL’s man hours is outsourced. HAL has been supporting these private players by extending technical support besides allowing utilisation of facilities (machinery and land) for various activities like dismantling, painting, testing, structural repair, equipping, assembling, etc.

In a major boost to defence manufacturing and government’s Make-in-India initiative, HAL has decided to offer production of the indigenous Advanced Light Helicopter-Dhruv (civil version) to potential Indian private companies through technology transfer. Accordingly, an expression of interest (EOI) for identification of Indian partner was invited against which offers have been received and currently, RFP is under preparation.

In addition, HAL has taken several steps to encourage private participation in the design and development of products and technologies. These include a corpus amounting to 10 per cent of the profit for R&D activities both in-house and with private vendors, launch of a portal for Make in India in HAL’s website www.hal-india.co.in encouraging participation of private industries, among others.

It is being said that HAL will face massive order issues after 2020. Besides, the proposal for 83 Tejas is yet to be converted into an actual order. What is the real picture?
We have enough orders for the next four years. The proposal for 83 LCA is likely to be converted into a firm order very soon. To augment our production, a parallel production line may be developed at AMD Nashik and work shall commence there after completion of Su-30 MKI aircraft if sufficient order for LCA is placed with HAL. Proposals for design and development of 15 LCA, supply of six Cheetal helicopters and 150 Al-31 FP engines are with the Ministry of Defence and likely to be approved soon.

Meanwhile we have orders for 72 Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH), eight Chetak and 10 Cheetal helicopters. There are enough ROH orders for overhaul of aircraft, helicopters, engines and accessories and upgrade of Jaguar and Mirage-2000 aircraft.

HAL’s aerospace division has contributed immensely to India’s space programme. Could you highlight HAL’s role in the space program?
HAL is meeting the requirements of structures for satellite launch vehicles and satellites of ISRO through its Aerospace Division. The division has been the mainstay partner of ISRO for five decades and has supported the space programme by providing hardware for satellites, SLV, ASLV, PSLV, GSLV MKII and GSLV MKIII (LVM3). The division also integrated the L-40 booster rockets of GSLV MKII, and contributed in a major way towards all the prestigious space missions of our country like Chandrayan-1, Chandrayan-2, Mars Orbiter, GSLV D5 and GSLV MKIII D1. HAL has manufactured the crew module for the human mission.

http://www.businessworld.in/article...ejas-To-IAF-By-March-2019-/26-12-2018-165552/
 

Raj Malhotra

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FOC is being granted to do Make in India propaganda during elections to dilute Rafale effect.

If Govt was genuine they would have signed 83MKIA Contract.
 

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