ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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Godless-Kafir

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Will we be seeing MACO technology in MK2???

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?topicName=india&id=news/awx/2010/07/07/awx_07_07_2010_p0-238905.xml

LCA would look cool if they design front like this MACO

Even their Sh!t looks better than our best technology! After all these tests they could not solve an major problem like AoA and what bothers me is that they change the Add to Air-superiority fighter right after the ACM speech on what the Tejas should evolve into. Thats the easy way just reprint the browser.
 

icecoolben

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@p2prada
Your arguements revolve around the fact that ADA is unproven and Tejas is being shown down IAF a**. Lets take a breather.
If only proven people can do better, there would have been no Einstein, our innovation on the physical world would have been confined to Newton. If we take your MBA analogy, other than Nalanda no other university would have been in place in India including IIMs. Some people just say "change is good". but I tend to disagree, I believe "change towards progress is good".
But the entropy for spontanity in an isolated universe is zero, that applies to the IAF as well. They will always be hesitant to do anything new on their own call it institutional inertia or anything else. Either the change will have to be brought by GOI or a defeat with pakistan or china, lets hope its the former so who the GOI really is politico, babus or the armed forces, no its the will of people who go to the ballot boxes. Perhaps in a representative democracy, this is limited, but we have one right freedom of expression. I admire that u support the freedom of choice of the armed forces, but lets just not put them on a pedestal and say they know whats good for us, if u really believe that look at neighbouring myanmar or the african states. Everyone there will only look at their own interests and look at the quickest and easiest way to solve their problems in our Air Force case this 'quickest and easiest' way is 'imports'. But the armed forces not sharing the burden will put enormous strain on other national resources one of such is our foreign exchange. Lets face the facts we don't have a common currency with USA, EU and Russian federation. Our debts have already exceeded our reserves and deals like mmrca mean long term debts which affect our credit rating and increases cost of borrowing from sources like IBRD and IMF which in-turn affect the financial viability on projects meant for the poor in Indian states conducted with assistance from these agencies, but these poor people do not know how they are affected at all, so when people like us armed with the information have the responsibility and we should strive to make the difference.
Transfer of technology enables us to be sanction proof, I hardly doubt it. Airframes, engine, radar and every other ancillary along with drawings may be transferred, but the source of raw materials will always have to be imported, becos finding suppliers of raw materials entail finding suitable ore suppliers, assesing their quality etc etc. India has ore of Steel, but japanese automakers still import raw materials to manufacture, why? Becos Indian produced steel does not match their grade, does not mean Indian made steel is inferior, it means exactly what the context implies its grade does not match Japanese manufacturing techniques. So even in the face of 100 % technology, for every additional airframe you need the original equipment manufacturer to supply HAL with basic raw materials. In other words, metallurgy is a technology even Russia hasn't conquered the west and its next to impossible to think they would supply us with such a rare talent. All the transfer of tech basically can only give us the ability to produce nuts and bolts from blue prints and screw driver technology that comes with reverse engineering, so that we don't need to repeat bofors gun cannibalisation while a war is going on. So in a skirmish like kargil yes, your strategy of TOT works, but No aircraft lost can be replaced in case of a long drawn out war on two-fronts and eventually either it will end with the capture of Islamabad or cessation of Kashmir and arunachal pradesh, with bits of sikkim, gujarat and rajastan added to the mix. If we go through this present policy, the latter is likely to happen in case of a true war.
 

p2prada

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When Chandrayaan was conducted, the Paks claimed it to be a flop and a 'waste of Indian Taxpayer's money'. This sounds very similar to the apparent bogey of LCA is 'wasting taxpayer's money'...
Let Pak say whatever they want. It has no interest to this discussion. Chandrayaan helped find water on the moon. It's a HUGE SUCCESS.

Fact is our own Airforce and Navy don't like LCA.

If only proven people can do better, there would have been no Einstein, our innovation on the physical world would have been confined to Newton.
People don't have to prove themselves to get new ideas. They have to prove themselves to win the Nobel Prize. Nobody can compare generating new ideas to testing and validating old ideas with experimentation. We are only re-inventing the wheel and suck at it.

So, this comment has nothing to do with anything.

If we take your MBA analogy, other than Nalanda no other university would have been in place in India including IIMs. Some people just say "change is good". but I tend to disagree, I believe "change towards progress is good".
Nothing to do with anything.

But the entropy for spontanity in an isolated universe is zero, that applies to the IAF as well. They will always be hesitant to do anything new on their own call it institutional inertia or anything else. Either the change will have to be brought by GOI or a defeat with pakistan or china, lets hope its the former so who the GOI really is politico, babus or the armed forces, no its the will of people who go to the ballot boxes. Perhaps in a representative democracy, this is limited, but we have one right freedom of expression. I admire that u support the freedom of choice of the armed forces, but lets just not put them on a pedestal and say they know whats good for us, if u really believe that look at neighbouring myanmar or the african states. Everyone there will only look at their own interests and look at the quickest and easiest way to solve their problems in our Air Force case this 'quickest and easiest' way is 'imports'. But the armed forces not sharing the burden will put enormous strain on other national resources one of such is our foreign exchange. Lets face the facts we don't have a common currency with USA, EU and Russian federation. Our debts have already exceeded our reserves and deals like mmrca mean long term debts which affect our credit rating and increases cost of borrowing from sources like IBRD and IMF which in-turn affect the financial viability on projects meant for the poor in Indian states conducted with assistance from these agencies, but these poor people do not know how they are affected at all, so when people like us armed with the information have the responsibility and we should strive to make the difference.
Transfer of technology enables us to be sanction proof, I hardly doubt it. Airframes, engine, radar and every other ancillary along with drawings may be transferred, but the source of raw materials will always have to be imported, becos finding suppliers of raw materials entail finding suitable ore suppliers, assesing their quality etc etc. India has ore of Steel, but japanese automakers still import raw materials to manufacture, why? Becos Indian produced steel does not match their grade, does not mean Indian made steel is inferior, it means exactly what the context implies its grade does not match Japanese manufacturing techniques. So even in the face of 100 % technology, for every additional airframe you need the original equipment manufacturer to supply HAL with basic raw materials. In other words, metallurgy is a technology even Russia hasn't conquered the west and its next to impossible to think they would supply us with such a rare talent. All the transfer of tech basically can only give us the ability to produce nuts and bolts from blue prints and screw driver technology that comes with reverse engineering, so that we don't need to repeat bofors gun cannibalisation while a war is going on. So in a skirmish like kargil yes, your strategy of TOT works, but No aircraft lost can be replaced in case of a long drawn out war on two-fronts and eventually either it will end with the capture of Islamabad or cessation of Kashmir and arunachal pradesh, with bits of sikkim, gujarat and rajastan added to the mix. If we go through this present policy, the latter is likely to happen in case of a true war.
Sorry this has nothing to do with anything again. If you can build an aircraft similar to Rafale, then I don't see why IAF will not choose it. If you build an aircraft that is superior to 1960s Mig-21 and inferior to everything else, then I would love to see IAF getting involved with Gnats again. Heck, even Gnat flies better than LCA.

Indigenous with Progression is good. Indigenous with Regression is retarded.
 

arya

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@Vijay;

LCA Mk2 cannot fly in 12 months. Work is stated to start only in 2012 and first flight by 2014. Induction by 2016(IOC).
dont you think 2016 will be too late

what will value for lca 2 in 2016
 

Kunal Biswas

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Will we be seeing MACO technology in MK2???

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?topicName=india&id=news/awx/2010/07/07/awx_07_07_2010_p0-238905.xml



LCA would look cool if they design front like this MACO


Thanks!





Dimensions
Wingspan 8.25m
Wing Area 26.7m²
Length 13.75m
Height 4.5m
Weights
Empty Weight 5,800kg
Weapon Payload 4,500kg
Maximum Take-Off Weight 13,000kg
Engines
Type 1 x GE F414M
Engine Rating 98kN (22,000lb)
Fuel Weight, Single Seater 3,150kg
Fuel Weight, Two Seater 2,840kg
Performance
Maximum Speed Mach 1.5
Maximum Altitude 14,400m
Airstrip Take-Off Run 450m
Airstrip Landing 750m
Ferry Range 3,700km
g-Load Limits +9g to -3g

Impressive looks also the specifications..

LCA2 can be deigned just like MACO but again if so, We need anti-radar coating and material for stealth..
Giving just a stealth look is not enough but also the technology within the skin, we wont have it until FGFA is ready..
 

nitesh

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p2 prada you are repeating this statement again and again:
Fact is our own Airforce and Navy don't like LCA.

I had requested before you to post the statements, can you please post them.
 

vijay jagannathan

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@Vijay;

LCA Mk2 cannot fly in 12 months. Work is stated to start only in 2012 and first flight by 2014. Induction by 2016(IOC).
If LCA mark 2 gets IOC in 2016 let me be God damned. If they aim for 12 months maybe it will scrape through to 2016.
 

SATISH

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If LCA mark 2 gets IOC in 2016 let me be God damned. If they aim for 12 months maybe it will scrape through to 2016.
You dont read my posts or are you too blinded by media reports? Or you are just here to vent out your frustration? How the hell are you supposed to fly the LCA Mk2 when the engine does not reach India before 2014? Are you delusional?
 

icecoolben

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Contd post 1285
Unfortunately, the 1962 war was a brutal wake up call to the politico elite and the pandora's box of imports was opened, with the soviet easy monetary policy our coffers could take it. India till the rest of the cold war remained a soviet client in the security arena, always warm under the soviet security and economic blanket, against any adversary that prosed a threat of a long drawn out war the chinese and the United States. The present situation is an hour glass upside down. India has come to terms of the pre-eminence of the United States. Has opened up and has decided to stand on its own, Still maintains relations with Russia primarily through arms trade , but Russia is a nation totally different altogether, its claim to super power status withdrawn, India is in most spheres other than military might a better power than Russia. The USA threat has reversed and the only irritant is sale of arms to pakistan, but the Chinese theat has reached catestropic proportions and has forced a common front with pakistan. With the receeding of United States military might, the security of the world is increasing getting multi-polarised. When one day, as the chinese economy eventually overtakes the USA, they can act completely indifferent to rules imposed by washington and europe after ww2, every multi-lateral treaty will be under the auspices of China. hence India inevitably will be pushed to the background even if we play by international rules. What this means is Chinese submarines will torpedo any civilian ship carrying supplies not only spares and raw materials for new mmrca, but also food and fuel imported for war efforts with precious foreign exchange and war debt which will take no less than 50 years to clear out, ask Britain they just paid their last installment of ww2 debt in 2007. Other than the slender chickens's neck India's reach overland to other nation states will have to pass through either pakistan or china India is effectively an Island in the security scenario. Every fancy import can only act as a deterant, if the threshold is breached it can't take the losses of attriction, but LCA tejas can. closed to the outside world IAF, IA and IN will have to rely on our own inherent strength, which cannot be built up unless the services share some of the burden of indigenisation. The Soviet war machine was comparitively very poor in quality to that of the nazis. But eventally they were able to overcome due to their built up inherent capability to absorb losses. Of course, the western alliance did come to their rescue, but just like them we need to atleast hold off till they do.
I understand that u emphatise with the armed forces that they should get what they want, but LCA tejas is precisely what they wanted, if not exactly. The treat that Tejas was need to meet as an air-superiority fighter still exists china is totally armed and moving high gear and pakistan is in its best pace of modernisation with blessing from USA and china, and down to ground we still have 200 flying coffins to replace and another 200 that have already retired.
One thing that I see in the mentality of IAF is mig-21 is mig-21 replacement, which Tejas is not. branding it mig-21 more than confirms my suspicions of IAF trying to box it within mig-21 replacement, when tejas has clearly out grown than box. tejas is more than capable to replace mig-21, mig-27 and hawk as lead in fighter trainer. I see that u respect jaguars for their roles, but they were discontinued from manufacturing by HAL once in the 80s, because they were obsolete then itself, check out global security if u may. So rahul is kind of correct in assesing them obsolete and unnecessary to upgrade, but our policy makers had already come to that conclusion two decades ago, its only sheer lack of direction that keeps them flying and costly upgrades being planned.
Just tell me how could IAF buy hawk in 2001, when requirements were formulated in late 1970s, while rejecting tejas because its requirement was formed in 1985, isn't that grave injustice to your own, while favoring a firangi. The only plausible conclusion is IAF was just doing an ad hoc job to escape the flying coffin quagmire. Just the same when they threw a spanner on DRDO AWACS programme, instantly after pakistan acquired saab erieye. While people generally accept that Tin-90 was a knee jerk purchase to al khalid, they refuse to accept the fact that mmrca is trying to fit in a gap that does not exist between the roles of Su-30 and lca Tejas, whose profile on several cases themselves overlap one another. the medium category crap thrown by the parliamentary standing commitee still stinks through out most media and aviation forums. Just ask yourself if Was there was even a 100 kn engine of the class and weight we required when the tejas mk-2 was proposed by IAF in 2005 inspite of the fact that the prototypes were powered by 75 kn f2j3 and the production models were to powered by 85 kn kaveri or in20. eventually they had to climb down to 90 kn which is just 5 kn higher than f404 in20 which was then only ordered, the air force initially wanted the second squadron to be made of exclusive trainers to replace mig-21 ub operational trainers later, but the performance improvement and the threat of war after nov2008, forced them to restrategize, again ad hoc decision. If 117 s engine which owes its heritage to al-31 which initially had thrust of 121 kn could power its latest variant at 142 kn, mathematically f404 could have provided 88 kn of thrust and even more exceeding 90 kn requirement if orders of the scale 300 were confirmed. Its the air force throwing unnecessary demands like completely new engine, completely indigenous aesa thats draging their own goals of operational preparedness. In any day. I would trust crapy DRDO browshe to a weapons seller with loads of promise of turning their frog into a prince if India signs on the check book dotted lines.
I'm thinking of painting a grafitti of Tejas on my house, just to spread awareness. Would like to hear such ideas,
 

vijay jagannathan

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p2 prada you are repeating this statement again and again:
Fact is our own Airforce and Navy don't like LCA.

I had requested before you to post the statements, can you please post them.
Mark 1 has validated some(not all) important technologies which were not available or possible in India say 25 to 30 years ago. So they conceptualised and made a plane. Making the plane was beset with problems because of sanctions which denied major tech assisitance and Kaveri was a big let down. So this more than anything else set back the program by at least 10 years by the most conservative estimates. So waht must have been available and inducted with FOC in 2000 is given with IOC in 2011 and asked to wait for 5 years for a better version in the process taking away large chunks of money,sapping energy and man and brain power of not only ADA but also end user IAF (both of which already perhaps has the highest attrition rates in the whole country) to me does not sounds like a complete sham. I am saying mark 1 is a tech demonstartor mark 2 get it off the boards in 12 months (in reality this will be 2016) instead of wasting tax payers money and selling us a lollipop saying it will have ioc in 2016 which will not happen(and we all know that). Is it clear?
 

vijay jagannathan

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You dont read my posts or are you too blinded by media reports? Or you are just here to vent out your frustration? How the hell are you supposed to fly the LCA Mk2 when the engine does not reach India before 2014? Are you delusional?
Here we go again. Mr. x or Y pops up every now and then and poses the same old question. No Sir I am not delusional. If you follow my posts I have suggested how you may get an Engine from GE. Don't tell me that GE doesn't have an F414 to spare or lend if the most ardent and urgent approach is made through the right channels. Are you kidding me? And must you have a F414 IN whatever to get the design validated? Is the difference between the F414 versions like a hippo's mouth and a canary's beak? And you harp about CAD cam. sIMULATE . bUILD DUMMYS. pUSH THE WHOLE THING MAN. sTOP COMPLAINING. AIM FOR 2012 and you will scrape through to 2016. otherwise keep doing it but don't expect to stuff it down IAF's throat in 2020. .
 

nitesh

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Mark 1 has validated some(not all) important technologies which were not available or possible in India say 25 to 30 years ago. So they conceptualised and made a plane. Making the plane was beset with problems because of sanctions which denied major tech assisitance and Kaveri was a big let down. So this more than anything else set back the program by at least 10 years by the most conservative estimates. So waht must have been available and inducted with FOC in 2000 is given with IOC in 2011 and asked to wait for 5 years for a better version in the process taking away large chunks of money,sapping energy and man and brain power of not only ADA but also end user IAF (both of which already perhaps has the highest attrition rates in the whole country) to me does not sounds like a complete sham. I am saying mark 1 is a tech demonstartor mark 2 get it off the boards in 12 months (in reality this will be 2016) instead of wasting tax payers money and selling us a lollipop saying it will have ioc in 2016 which will not happen(and we all know that). Is it clear?
Vijay you are not reading the posts and repeating the same thing again and again. Care to read through what satish has posted
 

nitesh

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Mark 1 has validated some(not all) important technologies which were not available or possible in India say 25 to 30 years ago. So they conceptualised and made a plane. Making the plane was beset with problems because of sanctions which denied major tech assisitance and Kaveri was a big let down. So this more than anything else set back the program by at least 10 years by the most conservative estimates. So waht must have been available and inducted with FOC in 2000 is given with IOC in 2011 and asked to wait for 5 years for a better version in the process taking away large chunks of money,sapping energy and man and brain power of not only ADA but also end user IAF (both of which already perhaps has the highest attrition rates in the whole country) to me does not sounds like a complete sham. I am saying mark 1 is a tech demonstartor mark 2 get it off the boards in 12 months (in reality this will be 2016) instead of wasting tax payers money and selling us a lollipop saying it will have ioc in 2016 which will not happen(and we all know that). Is it clear?
Vijay you are not reading the posts and repeating the same thing again and again. Care to read through what satish has posted
 

icecoolben

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@vijay
can you read both my previous two post and give a comment? I guess I've attributed your concerns to that 2016 time line as well.
Fact is if there was adequate mk-1 orders to tide down till mk-2 enters production, there would have been no problems. honestly mk-1 is a full fledged aircraft, a tech demonstrator is only built for a single task either just to test 3-d vectoring x-31 or stealth like the hopeless diamond of 1950s. My take is lca tejas mk-1 is an aircraft the IAF needs but does not like the prospect of its large induction and hence does not want.
 

SATISH

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Here we go again. Mr. x or Y pops up every now and then and poses the same old question. No Sir I am not delusional. If you follow my posts I have suggested how you may get an Engine from GE. Don't tell me that GE doesn't have an F414 to spare or lend if the most ardent and urgent approach is made through the right channels. Are you kidding me? And must you have a F414 IN whatever to get the design validated? Is the difference between the F414 versions like a hippo's mouth and a canary's beak? And you harp about CAD cam. sIMULATE . bUILD DUMMYS. pUSH THE WHOLE THING MAN. sTOP COMPLAINING. AIM FOR 2012 and you will scrape through to 2016. otherwise keep doing it but don't expect to stuff it down IAF's throat in 2020. .
Hey ...dont you get it..it is the GE INS6 engine..not your regular GE 414 engine that is fitted in the USN Super hornets. Dont you get it at all? Simulate? Cad...whatever you say the engine must be made first. Simulating Cad everything can be known what has been done...You cant CAD-CAM the fuselage for the engine. DO you know anything about manufacturing...You are the one who needs to know what you are actually rambling about.

The whole design of the INS6 is not even out of the drawing board. The specs were so impressive that the USN has gone for the INS6 engines for re-engining their own F 18s so bringing down the costs of the GE 414 INS6 to beat the EJ 200 hands down. First go to my previous post and read the whole news article.
 
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icecoolben

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Majority of members may not agree with me, then Again I've found myself on the wrong side of majority plenty of times still won out in the end.
I completely believe that what IAF wan't is Tejas mk-2 to go toe to toe with pakistani f-16 as part of the rapid reaction force now comprising of mig-21 bison. A single engine fighter has qualities of its own but the most significant are qualitative in nature like agility, handling and engine to airframe amalgamation resulting in quick response, in effect normally a single engine aircraft is almost a pilot's delight, signified by the fact that from ww2 single engine fighters have always proven to be the better dog fighter in most air duels. Apart from that fuel efficiency, simple low maintenance time and reduction of structural parts are a engineer's and economist's delight. And for air force chief ejaculating inside foreign mal is his delight.
avan avanuku avan avan prachana machi.
 

icecoolben

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@satish
thanks,was just going to investigate high alpha of gripen. Do u know how much alpha the f-35 can pull off?
 

icecoolben

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@satish
thanks,was just going to investigate high alpha of gripen. Do u know how much alpha the f-35 can pull off?
@vijay
how would u like it if u were strapped in rear seat of mk-2 first fligt with a jammed election seat, with your idea of engine with no foreign object damage, unmodified power supply, and no backup interface in case of flame out? I would like to see the look on your face then, tamil magane.
 

vijay jagannathan

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@satish
thanks,was just going to investigate high alpha of gripen. Do u know how much alpha the f-35 can pull off?
@vijay
how would u like it if u were strapped in rear seat of mk-2 first fligt with a jammed election seat, with your idea of engine with no foreign object damage, unmodified power supply, and no backup interface in case of flame out? I would like to see the look on your face then, tamil magane.
why will mk-2 have a rear seat?

Inducting mark1 is a waste of time money and energy and other human resources. The biggest problem in India is the current thinking that if it is made in India induct it whatever the shortcomings be. It is nothing short of ridiculous.How can you have such a lop sided doctrine. Yes you can encourage R and D but please it has to stand up to current international standards.Even now it is not too late. There are willing private enterprises like Tata and Mahindras. The Govt must immediately go in for a public -private model to develop mark 2. Depending on ADA is going to blow on everyones face and saraswat is already casting doubts about production feasibility in HAL. I say stop wasting tax payers money if you cannot give 12 months. GE can do it and so can ADA if they want.Okay forget everything. I will be God damned if a static model of Mark 2 is produced in 3 months from now. And don't tell me you need an engine for that. Such is the rate of creep in ADA that a static model will not be out in the next 18 months. Mark my words.
 
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