ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[vijay jagannathan]

controll yourself

its about to make a planes not a bycyle i can understand your feeling but you have also understand the things

Thanks for the advice. I wonder if you would also give same good advice to some of our other friends here who think Mark 1 is the best thing that happened to an unwilling IAF.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kunal---

What u think abt IAF official thinking right now?

As Long as LCA can fire more BVRS and drop 500kg PGMs, IAF is happy.. WHY?

MIG-21 and MIG-23 ( Retired now ) cannot do the same with that efficiency..
Also LCA engine is lot safer than MIG-21`s

Price is low compare to other fighters in international market..
Hence LCA is a good platform for A2G and A2A role..

Btw, Ever had chicken popcorn ?

 

[nitesh]

Incoherent? Then either One of us is drunk and heaven help us. I hope both of us are sober. It sounds incoherent because you are fixated on making Mark 1 the phantom of the skies and the best thing that happened to IAF.. I am incoherent becuase I am looking at the reality and its ramifications.

Boss you are the person who is derailing bu brining different things in to the matter, as you are so much fixated on ADA not going the performance parameters I asked you a simple question show me a reference where it is done, and ADA is trying to hide it. You have not put any reference to it till now.

I did not say ADA is hiding facts. I am saying they are keeping quiet.

If they are quiet then how do you know the sorties happened, how do you have updates about the progress. Don't harp on something which you can not justify

Its so tiring I have to repat myself over and over again. Its exactly the same problem we had with Kaveri. GTRE never acknowledged or came out with the problems until it blew on their face(literally speaking). I mean no agency would come forward and talk about their helplessness. I mean why would they invite trouble upon themselves?

If they could not have came with an engine and the tests could not ahve been conducted then how come they got decoupled with LCA? Out of the blue moon. the fact is totally opposite to what you are stating, they tried, they accepted they are not up to the mark, The kaveri got decoupled for LCA program.

Would this scenario be avoided if there was a competitor(Read private or public-private arm) who was also developing a plane based on airstaff specifications? It most definitely would. Yes Maybe both may not live up to expectations. But I tell you they will scramble and not work as if there is God granted eternity to develop a 3+ generation plane when rest of the world is talking of 5+ generation plane.

Who is supposed to fund that? When the funding was given in 1993 to start the TD project which company was having experience to do any work on an aerospace project?

Did not have technology,were hit by sanctions, did not have the manpower,did not have this ,that,nut,bolt--I mean how long will you sing this song? And you want to sing this for another 5 years. Ok baba take your time sit in your workshop and develop it. Take 25,50,100 years. Develop the technology.Nobody will complain.

So don't complain simple.

When you know that the plane has limitations and serious limitations and does not fulfill the airstaff requirements why are you thrusting it down IAF's throat?

Boss this is getting tiring, the plane has achieved IOC, IOC is not end of everything. There are further tests happening, weapon integration going on the things are getting ironed out. Has any body said that IOC is end of LCA? And please post some references to back up the claim that LCA has been given to IAF without they saying no to it.

Instead just take a break,have a kit kat and start work on Mark 2. This is reality. This is not something I have imagined. And this is exactly what has happened. and please --- don't ask me for references. Oh now I can say-- go to chindits-- I only found out about it an hour ago and I am not influenced by them. But they seem to sound like me and they have sources---lots of them. Happy reading.

So it seems huh, still not sure

 

[neo29]

Vital for defence

''Tejas has many features that make it contemporary.''

The initial operational clearance (IOC), given to India's first indigenously designed light combat aircraft (LCA), is an achievement for the country's defence research establishment and industry. The development of Tejas, which took 27 years to move from an idea to a near reality, has been riddled with setbacks and obstacles, some caused by internal problems and others by factors beyond the control of planners and those in charge of execution of the project.

But now it is at a stage where the full development of the aircraft is within sight. The role of an indigenous LCA is vital for India's defence needs, especially when the country has to assert the power of its forces in line with the change in strategic requirements in a new geo-political environment. The project was conceived in 1983 to enhance combat force levels to replace the ageing MiG-21 fleet.

Tejas has a number of features that make it contemporary and world class and many of them were designed and developed within the country. But it is not 100 per cent indigenous, as the engine and some other elements are not developed in the country. As the chief of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Dr V K Saraswat, said complete indigenisation may make the LCA financially unattractive or unviable. But maximum indigenisation is planned in the coming months and years.

The final operational clearance is still many months way and may be granted only in a couple of years, as Tejas has to undergo more tests and incorporate many more correctional proposals from the armed forces. It should have been inducted in the forces at least five years ago but the embargo on technologies in the wake of India's nuclear experiment in 1998 did much to set it back. This did some good also because the Indian scientists developed many elements of vital technology out of necessity.

However the resulting cost overruns and delays mark the negative side of the project. There is criticism that DRDO should have been more efficient and a better work culture than what is seen in public sector enterprises would have produced better results. The country can still be proud of the achievement, as it had to start from scratch in developing the aircraft. It is also important that the basic infrastructure and expertise for design and manufacture of fighter aircraft has been created, which can now be built upon.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/128405/vital-defence.html

 

[neo29]

IAF Chief's Wish Granted, HAL Declares LCA An Air Superiority Fighter

It gets more bizarre. At Monday's press conference in Bangalore, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal PV Naik said he wished he had a fleet full of air superiority fighters (ASF), but the problem was funds -- here he made that unmistakable gesture rubbing his thumb and forefinger together to denote money. But if the acrimony over the Tejas's generation wasn't enough, what the Chief probably didn't know is that HAL has gone ahead and declared the LCA an air superiority fighter. See the placard above, which stood next to one of the static aircraft displays.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/01/iaf-chiefs-wish-granted-hal-declares.html

 

[vijay jagannathan]

What u think abt IAF official thinking right now?

As Long as LCA can fire more BVRS and drop 500kg PGMs, IAF is happy.. WHY?

MIG-21 and MIG-23 ( Retired now ) cannot do the same with that efficiency..
Also LCA engine is lot safer than MIG-21`s

Price is low compare to other fighters in international market..
Hence LCA is a good platform for A2G and A2A role..

Btw, Ever had chicken popcorn ?

Well said. No problems. Agree with you entirely. Then it makes Airstaff requirements redundant. They should not have something like that. Whatever has been given should be flown without questions. Unfortunately many will not join AF to be pilots then. There may be Taliban style world war 2 Kamikaze mentality guys who will join. But then production numbers of aircraft will have to be extremely high to account for high losses in the war.

The better thing to do would be to say LCA is a good platform. Keep it aside and make it a better platfor aka Mark 2. But don't say you will give it in 5 years. I mean who can gaurantee it will be ready for induction in 5 years. ADA's 2 months is currently 6 months in ADA language. so 5 years will be ---God forbid anyone wh believes this and is willing to wait.

never had chicken popcorn. Is it chicken stuffed with popcorn or chicken flavoured popcorn.

 

[vijay jagannathan]

Boss you are the person who is derailing bu brining different things in to the matter, as you are so much fixated on ADA not going the performance parameters I asked you a simple question show me a reference where it is done, and ADA is trying to hide it. You have not put any reference to it till now.


If they are quiet then how do you know the sorties happened, how do you have updates about the progress. Don't harp on something which you can not justify


If they could not have came with an engine and the tests could not ahve been conducted then how come they got decoupled with LCA? Out of the blue moon. the fact is totally opposite to what you are stating, they tried, they accepted they are not up to the mark, The kaveri got decoupled for LCA program.


Who is supposed to fund that? When the funding was given in 1993 to start the TD project which company was having experience to do any work on an aerospace project?


So don't complain simple.


Boss this is getting tiring, the plane has achieved IOC, IOC is not end of everything. There are further tests happening, weapon integration going on the things are getting ironed out. Has any body said that IOC is end of LCA? And please post some references to back up the claim that LCA has been given to IAF without they saying no to it.


So it seems huh, still not sure

Please urself buddy boy and continue to live in your pseudo world. You definitely sounded incoherent this time. I say mark 1 is a technology demonstrator mark 2 must hit the skies in 1 year. or else stop wasting Tax payers money. And if you don't understand English that does not mean scrap Tejas program.
That means stop wasting time money and manpower on further developing mark 1. Turn to mark 2 right now. Save on all fronts!!!!!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Well said. No problems. Agree with you entirely. Whatever has been given should be flown without questions. production numbers of aircraft will have to be extremely high to account for high losses in the war.

LCA is a good platform.

never had chicken popcorn. Is it chicken stuffed with popcorn or chicken flavored popcorn.



FIXED FOR U!!

U should have, It so delicious..

 

[nitesh]

Please urself buddy boy and continue to live in your pseudo world. You definitely sounded incoherent this time. I say mark 1 is a technology demonstrator mark 2 must hit the skies in 1 year. or else stop wasting Tax payers money. And if you don't understand English that does not mean scrap Tejas program.
That means stop wasting time money and manpower on further developing mark 1. Turn to mark 2 right now. Save on all fronts!!!!!!

Boss vijay, you again changed the topic, stick to the point and if you can't then please don't repeat the same words again and again.

 

[vijay jagannathan]

Vital for defence

''Tejas has many features that make it contemporary.''

The initial operational clearance (IOC), given to India's first indigenously designed light combat aircraft (LCA), is an achievement for the country's defence research establishment and industry. The development of Tejas, which took 27 years to move from an idea to a near reality, has been riddled with setbacks and obstacles, some caused by internal problems and others by factors beyond the control of planners and those in charge of execution of the project.

But now it is at a stage where the full development of the aircraft is within sight. The role of an indigenous LCA is vital for India's defence needs, especially when the country has to assert the power of its forces in line with the change in strategic requirements in a new geo-political environment. The project was conceived in 1983 to enhance combat force levels to replace the ageing MiG-21 fleet.

Tejas has a number of features that make it contemporary and world class and many of them were designed and developed within the country. But it is not 100 per cent indigenous, as the engine and some other elements are not developed in the country. As the chief of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Dr V K Saraswat, said complete indigenisation may make the LCA financially unattractive or unviable. But maximum indigenisation is planned in the coming months and years.

The final operational clearance is still many months way and may be granted only in a couple of years, as Tejas has to undergo more tests and incorporate many more correctional proposals from the armed forces. It should have been inducted in the forces at least five years ago but the embargo on technologies in the wake of India's nuclear experiment in 1998 did much to set it back. This did some good also because the Indian scientists developed many elements of vital technology out of necessity.

However the resulting cost overruns and delays mark the negative side of the project. There is criticism that DRDO should have been more efficient and a better work culture than what is seen in public sector enterprises would have produced better results. The country can still be proud of the achievement, as it had to start from scratch in developing the aircraft. It is also important that the basic infrastructure and expertise for design and manufacture of fighter aircraft has been created, which can now be built upon.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/128405/vital-defence.html

Bloody hell!! These newspapers seem to be reporting from facts taken from my post. I am the best. LOL.You guys should give me some award on this forum and no smart jack ass replies to this one okay? BTW go through all my posts since I joined in June 2010. If there is anything I have not predicted and said that hasn't come true I will refuse the award.LOL. I say get the mark 2 up and going in 12 months. Develop the work culture and GOI please pay the guys well!!!

 

[vijay jagannathan]

U should have, It so delicious..

Hey Kunal! WOW thanks mate. That looks yum.

 

[vijay jagannathan]

Boss vijay, you again changed the topic, stick to the point and if you can't then please don't repeat the same words again and again.

Boss nitesha yak appa??? Beda andhre bit bido. Naan helodu nan vichara. Adhak yaak neen sumne tension agthiya. Nan prakara naanu correct. Tejas beda anta heluta ilvalla.

 

[nitesh]

Boss nitesha yak appa??? Beda andhre bit bido. Naan helodu nan vichara. Adhak yaak neen sumne tension agthiya. Nan prakara naanu correct. Tejas beda anta heluta ilvalla.

What is this now? Vijay, repeating again, don't try to derail the thread.

 

[SHASH2K2]

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[vijay jagannathan]

badly needed for someone .

Okay trying very hard Brother? So u are amitabh bachhan--- You know he is hepatitis C positive. We would all do well to stay away from you.

 

[SHASH2K2]

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[icecoolben]

Flying in the face of facts

The operational flight of the Tejas, the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft, has been met with muted applause. New Delhi flags off the same 'Made in India' piece of defence equipment again and again. Every defence minister has declared the Arjun tank ready for deployment. The Tejas has passed its
initial operational clearance and will hope to receive final operational clearance in the next 18 months. Even after that, much of its avionics and electronics will still have to be sorted out. The expectation is that it will be a pillar of the military system only a decade more from now. Another source of cynicism is the fact that chunks of the Tejas, including the engine, are imported.

There are many sound arguments as to why India should be spending billions to develop a Tejas fighter, an Arjun tank and a host of variously named missiles. They are not, however, the ones that are being touted in public. Self-reliance in defence, in the sense of being able to wholly manufacture all the key defence platforms, is a myth. It is simply impossible to master all the components and technologies, let alone pay for the research and development costs, of even a single fighter airplane. Even the US imports bits and pieces of its arsenal. Self-reliance in defence needs to be redefined. What it should mean is the development of homegrown manufacturing and technological abilities that ensure that India can be an essential part of various global defence supply chains. It is important that these capacities should have both civilian and defence spin-offs.

Self-reliance also means to be able to use diplomacy to become embedded in global security arrangements that ensure that no country will be in a position to sanction or deny India essential defence equipment. Both of these are feasible thanks to India's present economic stature. But they can only be accomplished if a mindset that treats foreign firms as a necessary evil and gives lip service to private Indian manufacturers is done away with. This will not be easy — the ministry of defence is seen as among New Delhi's more fossilised bureaucracies. India's defence equipment capability should be measured in terms of the quality of its machine tools industry, its precision engineering capability and its ability to generate the sort of software that lies at the heart of all modern defence equipment. If the best fighters around the world depend on even a single Indian component to perform, the country will have done more to ensure the safety of its arms supplies than any aircraft and tank photo opportunities.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Flying-in-the-face-of-facts/Article1-649576.aspx

What he is trying to say is civilian and defence industries must go hand in hand, then we should not develop Kaveri Engine, right?

 

[Rahul Singh]

No. Landing gears are overweight by 500kg and that's what they are trying to reduce by FOC. After that Air force wants an extra 1 ton on the empty weight. So, right now efforts are on to reduce the LCA Mk1 to 5 tons from the current 5.5 tons. Then LCA Mk2 will be increased by 1 tons by redesigning nose, wing, inlets and changes for F414 INS6. It will be significant.

Trimming landing gear of 6.5 ton fighter by 500kg! Possible only if MK-2 chooses to take off with detachable rollers and land a like glider, just like Me 163.

Redesigned nose as of today means increasing length with plug. Changed intake means increasing radius in horizontal axis and few more auxiliary inlets. Changes for F-414 will be internal. Wing will largely remain unchanged except LEVCON.

So again, which changes among following can't be done on MK-1 during MLU? And if it can be done what is wrong in buying second squadron?

But what if Gripen is selected? The LCA Mk2 and Gripen NG have similar specifications.

But they will not same range and combat payload. Not to forget that Mk-2 will remain as a L-MRCA and Gripen IN will be a M-MRCA.

LCA is primarily a point defence fighter. All it has to do is point defence and minor air interdiction. If it is a replacement for Mig-21 then it will do the role of a Mig-21, that is shoot intruding enemy aircraft with BVR, WVR missiles or engage using guns. For all that the LCA needs to be able to get into turning games.

Yes LCA will be point air defence fighter with BVR capability and will do minor air interdiction and A2G air support at border with LGB's and standoff missiles.

In dog fight main objective always remains getting behind foe's 6 o'clcok and turning with turn is considered as worst maneuver as it bleeds energy very fast especillay of pure delta. But this is not the first and last maneuver in the book. High Yo Yo is one alternative and very good especially for deltas because they at advantage there.

That's why its called a Mig-21++ by ACM. It is a Mig-21 Bison with strike capability.

Yes indeed. A Mig-21 replacement would always be similar in capability(combat load and range wise) and would be built with present generation technology to tackle present generation threat. Same is the case with LCA which is a advanced replacement of Mig-21s .

The problem isn't the plans of the objectives. The problem is results. Your plans are great. But what if by 2014, ADA suddenly announces, LCA Mk1 failed due to design limitations and LCA Mk2 cannot be done by 2020 and that AMCA will be shelved for a newer platform. What then? It's great if we succeed. But what if we fail? Then where will the replacement come from?

Plain speculation and negative one. There were some in 90s who used to say LCA will not even fly. There are some who says, FGFA will fail as a stealth fighters because Russians can only build fighters with large RCS not with LO features. Do not not risk factor applies with them? Can you say for sure Russian 5G design will be better than US or even Chinese because some says Chinese stealth tech is stolen US technology? What if China in reality has stolen US 5g tech? Would not FGFA or even PAK-FA put IAF at great disadvantage at both fronts?

More reasons to expect for better than otherwise. DRDO is now delivering. Situation has changed for good will change even more for better.

ADA has never had any experience building an aircraft. Why would the IAF take such massive risks chasing behind dreams? Once ADA has successfully made LCA and gets AMCA flying, then I don't see a reason why IAF will not place its cards on ADA or HAL. The IAF instead places its cards on Russia or Europe imply because they are more successful.

IAF is not a single fighter type air force, it has available spots for imported one. Mere success/failure of LCA and AMCA will not seal faith of IAF. But their success would change IAF's faith, Navy's faith and Indian's faith forever. Worth taking chance.

It's exactly like the difference between joining IIMs for MBA or some start up college for MBA. It's a huge difference. The Future is completely uncertain if you join a start up while the future is assured if you join IIM. IAF will place its bet on Sukhoi any day over ADA.

No. Buying defence products from out side and developing then buying them locally doesn't compare to MBA from IIM and MBA from start up college respectively. Unlike your comparison, here interests are permanently mutual and reciprocal and will bear fruits forever. If IAF invests in local it will face some problem initially but in time it will get perfect product for its need. But with imports IAF will always be compromising, sometime on requirements sometime on budget.

Rather I suspect behind the scene action, similar to another 124 Arjuns inducted y the army for Arjun Mk1.

You do, I don't.

If we pick Gripen, then that statement becomes void.

No not at all. Gripen means JAS-39IN which is a M-MRCA, HF-XX MK-2 means L-MRCA. Two different aircraft can't replace each other.

Still reliability is very important. Jaguars have a very reliable strike capability and we have some really good pilots on the Jaguar, why retrain those pilots, instead give them better Jaguars. New Jaguars are a stop gap anyway until AMCA comes into the picture.

If anything in IAF is reliable then it is Mirage? Jaguar did had its share of criticism. But this is not the thread to discuss that in detail. Whole point was, new Jaguars and new engines (in upgraded one's) will have much life left when they will be decommissioned. So why put so much money specially when unlike Tejas spin-off/pay-back, money invested in Jaguars will be totally unrecoverable.

USN simply did not engage the Russian jets or the Chinese submarine because they did not want to invite a diplomatic war. But the Jaguars penetration during Malabar was well orchestrated in order to sink the carrier. There were 150-200 aircraft flying at the time.

USN did not engaged because they were not presenting any considerable threat. Whenever they did, they were intercepted by jets flying from carriers.

Mig-21s shot down F-16s during a war game but during Red USAF officer said they were operation at huge restrictions. Will know about that carrier incident soon.

But I am not interested in the radar at all.

Then what? Radar is a major ask from IAF in LCA.

That was IAF's call. They said they want a better engine. AESA was just an upgrade. The time they announced MK2, the IAF clearly said they have no interest in the Mk1.

Only engine and Radar was IAF's call. Rest of improvements about which we came to know during AI 09 was ADA's proposal. Anyway, engine demand was not new. Ever since latest ASR was conveyed it became certain that LCA will need a 90KN engine.

IAF only said don't want LCA with present thrust/engine. A mere re-engining doesn't shoots MK-1 to MK-2 there is a comprehensive package.

Not if Israel helps us and looks like they already barred the 2052 for export. If Israel re-develops the 2052 in India itself then we will see.

It's for LCA's good that Israel cleared its stand now, not half way down the road. Now LRDE will team up with EuroRadar. However, i am sure that ADA will definitely keep alternative option open which in worst case will be either RBE-2 or ZUKE AE.

What if LCA ends up fighting a PAF F-16 or J-10? LCA is not just a supportive workhorse. It is a point defence and an air interdiction fighter.

Tejas will fire BVR just like F-16s. In any air to air combat Tejas will engage F-16s at number advantage or else will escape. Same applies to J-10. However i don't consider it a threat as long as it uses chinese BVR missiles.

Gripen is a simple, cheap and easily acquirable fighter. We can even work with Saab and get the Kaveri on it once it's out. Gripen cannot replace the heavier contemporaries in certain roles, but it can handle LCA's role many times better

Imported hardwares are neither cheap nor easily acquirable specially when need is most, recall Kargil days.........One black dot and SAAB will be banned just like Bofors. What then other than IAF begging DRDO to keep them airworthy.

So can do heavier fighters much better than Gripen in addition to heavy duty role which Gripen can't do. So why don't dump Gripen and buy them?

You undermine the success of the A-10. It has less to do with deserts and Afghanistan and more to do with its ability to kill ground troops and tanks. You could say it was under used simply because the enemy was already annihilated.

No i did not. I only pointed to its usefulness in present time. BTW A-10 and Jaguar are different and i had used Jaguar for something not A-10.

.That's the problem, you are comparing a proven platform with a developing one.

No, i am only saying don't invest in re-engined Jaguar and new one specially when a better replacement will be fully ready in 2 years. Mature or not, any day down the line it will be replaced by new jet and more likely date is 2018 .

Two new engine per Jaguar for only 800 hours of flying!

But it comes with the guarantee that it will work. Granted imported jets are more expensive, but so is an IIM MBA degree compared to a start up. So, will you base the future 40 years of your life on a cheaper budget college?

Nitesh has posted one article regarding F-16 which gives me enough reasons to distrust.

MBA logic doesn't applies here. A students pays a college and gets an MBA. Relation, 2 years max. IAF pays ADA and gets something. DRDO improves next one using that money provides better this time to IAF. Relation, forever.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Well Mr. sarva-gnan like you said there is no point in anything now. Fly mark 2 in one year or stop wasting tax payers money. Or go to Chindits and have your fill. You are forewarned---Its depressng. Atleast I am asking for Mark 2 to fly.

So what happened to all those ADA conspiracies? Fussss......Bhoom!

Nobody saying Mk-2 should not fly it should and fly ASAP. But it can't be done in 12 months. That's impossible and that's the whole point.

We know Chindits for long. She is a DDM queen who don't even bother to check dates even in her writings going to get printed in a reputed news paper. Good for you.

 

[Kunal Biswas]