ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[nitesh]

get mark 2 flying in 12 months. Mark 1 is a tech demonstrator. Get LSP 6 flying within 30 days and push mark 1 to the limits. Make performance parameters public!!! ADA has never made it public!!! Stop wasting tax payers money. Why can't the LCA do 1.8 mach??
Why is ADA still playing safe after 1500 sorties? If it is indeed a capable machine press the pedal I say. You can't hide behind the excuse that you don't want a crash. with your kind of caution no fighters in the world would ever have crashed during development. There is nothing special about Tejas never having crashed. This kind of protectionism can't go on and on. It has actually led to this monumental delay as acknowledged by several ADA scientists themselves. But now you must shed the cocoon. We all love the Tejas but it is getting bad publicity because the defence establishments want to continue being cautious just to make sure IAF doesn't find faults. But this is the wong way of doing things. Atleast from now on lets see you guys push the bird. come on I say------

So the life of the pilot has to be put on risk so that you can be happy?

I am unable to find the rational behind this continuous line "stop wasting taxpayer's money". Care to explain

 

[SHASH2K2]

get mark 2 flying in 12 months. Mark 1 is a tech demonstrator. Get LSP 6 flying within 30 days and push mark 1 to the limits. Make performance parameters public!!! ADA has never made it public!!! Stop wasting tax payers money. Why can't the LCA do 1.8 mach??
Why is ADA still playing safe after 1500 sorties? If it is indeed a capable machine press the pedal I say. You can't hide behind the excuse that you don't want a crash. with your kind of caution no fighters in the world would ever have crashed during development. There is nothing special about Tejas never having crashed. This kind of protectionism can't go on and on. It has actually led to this monumental delay as acknowledged by several ADA scientists themselves. But now you must shed the cocoon. We all love the Tejas but it is getting bad publicity because the defence establishments want to continue being cautious just to make sure IAF doesn't find faults. But this is the wong way of doing things. Atleast from now on lets see you guys push the bird. come on I say------

Rather than Ranting about stop wasting taxpayers money can you please provide us some suggestions about how to better utilize money to develop made in India weapons ? Maybe buying Made is USA is best option as per you.

 

[vijay jagannathan]

If I had the immense belief in the machine every one talks about and if I were the ADA I would have jolly well said Hang on with the IOC(after you have hung on for so many years). Lets get the LSP-6 out fly it for AoA testing,mach testing,sustained turn rates and then grant it to us.

Of course ADA have validated many systems but I know you guys ---- when it came to validating the above parametrs there has been a ghostly silence.

 

[nitesh]

If I had the immense belief in the machine every one talks about and if I were the ADA I would have jolly well said Hang on with the IOC(after you have hung on for so many years). Lets get the LSP-6 out fly it for AoA testing,mach testing,sustained turn rates and then grant it to us.

Of course ADA have validated many systems but I know you guys ---- when it came to validating the above parametrs there has been a ghostly silence.

Boss, I am unable to understand what is your problem with testing schedule? Just for your mental ejaculation you want some body to die or what?

 

[SHASH2K2]

If I had the immense belief in the machine every one talks about and if I were the ADA I would have jolly well said Hang on with the IOC(after you have hung on for so many years). Lets get the LSP-6 out fly it for AoA testing,mach testing,sustained turn rates and then grant it to us.

Of course ADA have validated many systems but I know you guys ---- when it came to validating the above parametrs there has been a ghostly silence.

Nobody does things perfectly in very first attempt. When LCA project started requirements were different and every year or so requirements kept on changing. You cannot blame ADA entirely for that . Also no body start to run on very first attempt . we are not americans or french and have limited technical expertise to build a plane and subsystems. Even Gripen has almost all critical components made in USA . given what we have achieved despite severe technology denial and restriction ADA has done a decent Job it not a very good job. development and improvement is a continuous process and there is no rule that states that planes and its subsystems cannot be improved.

 

[vijay jagannathan]

Rather than Ranting about stop wasting taxpayers money can you please provide us some suggestions about how to better utilize money to develop made in India weapons ? Maybe buying Made is USA is best option as per you.

For a start I would recommend you to have your eyes tested and if you do have sound vision be a good boy and read all the posts ----I have previously posted how the money can be utilised and getting USA made weapons isnt one of them.
And Mr. Underinformed shortsighted shash whatever as if fighter engines don't fall under the weapons category.

 

[vijay jagannathan]

So the life of the pilot has to be put on risk so that you can be happy?

I am unable to find the rational behind this continuous line "stop wasting taxpayer's money". Care to explain

This really takes the cake---- you want to be a fighter pilot(that too in IAF) AND VOLUNTEER to be a test pilot and pilots life---- Jesus someone please help me here. Icecool, P2P .

Looks like you don't pay tax

 

[SHASH2K2]

For a start I would recommend you to have your eyes tested and if you do have sound vision be a good boy and read all the posts ----I have previously posted how the money can be utilised and getting USA made weapons isnt one of them.
And Mr. Underinformed shortsighted shash whatever as if fighter engines don't fall under the weapons category.

You need some rest for yourself. I have been watching your mindless rant from many weeks . Take a break have a KitKat MR Vijay Deenanath Chauhan .

 

[nitesh]

This really takes the cake---- you want to be a fighter pilot(that too in IAF) AND VOLUNTEER to be a test pilot and pilots life---- Jesus someone please help me here. Icecool, P2P .

Looks like you don't pay tax

Vijay, I really don't understand the head and tail of what you said just now can you please check what you have posted on post 1202 and my reply on post 1203, my humble request, maintain some decorum.

 

[vijay jagannathan]

sheep brain

You need some rest for yourself. I have been watching your mindless rant from many weeks . Take a break have a KitKat MR Vijay Deenanath Chauhan .

Ha!! I knew I couldn't expect much else from you for you were so much off track. Better luck next time.

 

[SHASH2K2]

Ha!! I knew I couldn't expect much else from you for you were so much off track. Better luck next time.

Hope to see some sense after you are back after break . Man you badly need some fresh air. go out and Enjoy the lie. No need to take so much of stress for rest of your countrymen. We can take care of ourselves.

And your D**** brain will work better after some rest . a nice advice from someone having sheeps brain.

 

[vijay jagannathan]

Nobody does things perfectly in very first attempt. When LCA project started requirements were different and every year or so requirements kept on changing. You cannot blame ADA entirely for that . Also no body start to run on very first attempt . we are not americans or french and have limited technical expertise to build a plane and subsystems. Even Gripen has almost all critical components made in USA . given what we have achieved despite severe technology denial and restriction ADA has done a decent Job it not a very good job. development and improvement is a continuous process and there is no rule that states that planes and its subsystems cannot be improved.

I will stand soulder to shoulder to you if you say they have done a decent job. But I will hasten to say don't give it to the IAF and be proud of it and expect IAF to be proud of it. Its not YET an aircraft IAF wants. And for the first 3 lines of your quote 27 years is enough. That too for a nation of 1 billion and where people can read write and speak English unlike the chinese(Why am I comparing ourselves to them?)

 

[Rahul Singh]

IAF has clearly asked for a decrease in unnecessary weight in the Mk1 and then increase the empty weight by 1 more ton on the Mk2. This will need obvious design changes. These changes will be exactly like the Gripen NG.

Let me start believing on speculations. Yes IAF said increase weight by 1 ton. But ADA also said "will reduce weight of Mk-2 by 500Kg" which naturally means relative to Mk-1's. So effective weight gain will be 1/2 ton. This doesn't sound any significant to me and doesn't make be believe that there will be radical changes in Mk-2. Considering Mk-2 will get 80-100Kg heavier engine with FADEC(can't say if gross weight includes it or not, for safe assumption i'll say no additional weight) and a relatively heavier MMR which will certainly add 20-30Kg. Then there is talk that SPS 'Mayavi' will be fully integrated internally. Design optimization will include addition of multiple ribs, chords, and fins. For new engine, intake will enlarged. Nose cone will be extended using plug to reduce wave drag. Space saved during weight reduction will be used for additional fuel tanks. IFR system getting abroad. Top of all MK-2 is said to get LEVCON.

A simple math says major percentage of 500Kg weight gain will be because of said changes which are not radical design changes airframe wise. So again, i believe MK-1 MLU = MK-2

Then it will fall woefully short of any MMRCA fighter in contention. A fighter doing 24deg AOA will not beat anything in a turning match.

Yes indeed LCA will fall short of any M-MRCA range and combat payload wise and it should be. LCA is small fighter jet which belongs to light category and is for different role unlike medium weight M-MRCAs which are being bought by IAF to fill in between MKI's and LCA's role.

LCA was always a pure delta and delta is never to dog fight in turning game. It has its advantage in high altitude regime and every body fights at their strength.

You got the concept wrong. Just because we are going for the MMRCA does not mean Tejas cannot become a MMRCA(if possible). The LMRCA concept was initially conceptualized to be ready by 1995 for induction. Now the IAF is looking for better options by adding China to the equation.

Wrong, not me. L MRCA concept is part of IAF's air warfare doctrine release during 1996 and it asks for all MRCA IAF consisting three category of jets weight wise. Interestingly, justification given for buying H-MRCA(MKI) was capability to strike deep into China. Same doctrine also states need for L-MRCA in numbers for border level offensive defensive A2A, A2G missions.

IAF started working against Chinese threat right when it decided to develop/buy MKI in 1996 and right then it changed original ASR for LCA from BVR capable light dog fighter to complete L-MRCA.

Yes, LCA can be developed as M-MRCA (even just by scaling it up) so it can as fifth generation and can even be as UCAV. But the what will happen to all important L-MRCA need? Considering speculations regarding MK-2 = M-MRCA true, i'll say today it is more logical to fill M-MRCA place with imported M-MRCAs and divert all funding and effort to AMCA which will be future M-MRCA.

Despite this, if IAF is interested in having indigenous M-MRCA in addition to indigenous L-MRCA then they should join hands with ADA and develop it as Tejas Mk-3.

Kaveri has been delinked from LCA. But the Kaveri is scheduled to be used on LCA in 5 years as per the directors recent comments. Also indigenous MMR is a requirement on the LCA Mk2. It was supposed to to be the Israel/Indian AESA to be ready in the 2012-14 period.

Delinking itself means no compulsion. If it is ready, ok, if not, no worries. AESA is a requirement on Mk-2, not necessarily indigenous one. IAF would be wicked dog if they make fully indigenous X band MMR a compulsion on Mk-2 which is scheduled to enter service in leas than six years. But is it the case, no? ACM said "I will not accept anything less than fully indigenous AESA MMR on AMCA" . It is not like ACM is unaware of past and doesn't know that DRDO's work and MOD's investment in X band technology is zero till this date. Knowing that, only an ignorant can ask for fully ready X band MMR under six years at peanut's price(investment) and ACM certainly not one.

Sure. Take your time. I am not disappointed by our radar development program. I am only disappointed by DRDO's and GOI's attempts at shoving aircraft and tanks that do not match requirements into the services throats.

GOI saves more money and make even more when they import. So its not like something is being pushed to services throat. Since this is ADA LCA thread i'll stick to it. It was IAF's statement which quoted LCA MK-1 as far advanced replacement for Mig-21s and this statement was also given as a reason for ordering one more squadron. Now will you contradict IAF?

That's the plan. Then deliver it. All I see is HAL and ADA only talking.

Yes that's the plan and work is already somewhere down the way. You can see it like but i don't think simple talking gets you a fly-by-wire jet from scratch completing 1500 event less test flights while getting through IOC.

Then both statements back induction of foreign MMRCAs.

Not those statements. But i never said M-MRCA is alternative to L-MRCA(LCA) and vice versa.

You are kidding right. We had 6 Jaguars taking out an American aircraft carrier in the Malabar exercises, that's no joke. Jaguars are proven platforms. LCA is not. It is not the point of obsolescence, it is point of operational preparedness.

No kidding. I only said Jaguar as technology is obsolete. More because of IAF's decision to buy only Multi role combat aircrafts not single role. And i didn't said retire Jaguar right away. I only said invest only that much that can get paid back in imported goods which unlike local never compensates it with spin-offs . Avionics, navigational aids and weapon systems upgradation, ok and necessary but not new Jaguars and re-engined one. A new engine has 2000 hrs of life and Jaguars are not going to serve beyond 2018-20.

How may times have you read about a jet penetration defences of USN carrier? Did ever a Soviet jet penetrated upto USN carrier? Yes it is not joke. Jaguars are good but do we know for sure if US Carrier was operation at full capablity? During war games various restrictions are imposed. In real life that will not be the case. If not, then nobody needs to fear USN BG especially China needs nothing what so ever to restrict USN BG movement close to yellow sea even in Pacific.

IAF said they are not interested in Mk1. So, I believe they will not see wide scale deployment towards FOBs. The Mk2 if successful will present a better picture. "Will have" does not apply to the LCA simply because the Mig29 and M2000 will have way better radars.

IAF also said it is very advanced replacement of Mig-21 and added "will buy one more squadron because of that". Its not like IAF don't like Mk-1 as whole its like they want certain improvements. AESA is one among these. But IAF is compromising on that because unfortunately no where in the world other than US a X band MMR is fully operation. So neither ADA nor IAF has can do much but wait.

BTW earlier there was no concept of Mk-2 at all. It came in only because ADA proposed whole make over of LCA in addition to re-engining and AESA all in order to take care of future challenges.

"Will have" does not apply to the LCA simply because the Mig29 and M2000 will have way better radars.

Yeah "Will have" applies to LCA because MK-2 will get AESA while Mig-29 will get mechanically steered MMR and Mirage 2000 will get PESA RDY(if ever).

For some reason, Gripen beats M2000 in sustained turn rates, AoA and weapons delivering capabilities.

You mean Mirage 2000 9? Anyway LCA was never built as Gripen beater rather as a supportive workhorse. IAF doesn't only quality, it also needs quantity and here LCA fits much better than any.

Ok. You caught one aircraft. Sure Gripen cannot beat a TVC equipped Mig-35. But Gripen can beat non TVC F-15, Su-30, Rafale, EF-2000, F-18 and SH any day of the week. Gripen's agility has no match. If LCA was similar I would have been happy.

Then we should not buy any including MKI but Gripen? May be Americans, British, French, Germans, Italians, Spanish and Israelis should not any but Gripen. Point being, Gripen is good but a costly overkill to fill in L-MRCA role in IAF. IAF is building a team with H-MRCA, M-MRCA and L-MRCA and wherever money can be save it should be. L-MRCA requirement is for a workhorse and as term sugests it must be simple, cheap and easily acquirable.

Heck, why do you think USN is still using those technologically obsolete A-10s. All it has is a big gun or 2. But for some reason technology is always below reliability.

UNS doesn't operate A-10 but the USAF. A-10 would have been long gone had US not fought successive desert war and Afghanistan war, all against low tech enemy which was already annihilated by cruise missiles and advanced bombers. Yet A-10 always operated under air cover during first gulf war. Even at least one was shot down.

The LCA Mk1 and Mk2 are not even ready to be deployed for combat.

So will not be newly built, upgraded and re-engined Jaguars. They will need whole lot of testing to validate new technology. They will also have to go through IOC and FOC. Considering IAF signs for re-engining Jaguars today i don't see project getting completed before 2012-13. By then MK-1 will have FOC meaning combat ready.

If we were not a small budget armed forces and did not have 2 nuclear powered neighbours around us then I would have been supporting Mk1 inductions.

Small budget even more necessitates indigenous efforts. Imported stuffs never comes cheap and replacement sought even 5 lost jets can take whole 1-2 years and twice the price.

 

[SHASH2K2]

I will stand soulder to shoulder to you if you say they have done a decent job. But I will hasten to say don't give it to the IAF and be proud of it and expect IAF to be proud of it. Its not YET an aircraft IAF wants. And for the first 3 lines of your quote 27 years is enough. That too for a nation of 1 billion and where people can read write and speak English unlike the chinese(Why am I comparing ourselves to them?)

I never said that LCA is perfect and free from flaws. but you need to understand the improtance of supporting LCA project . If project dies now without support from IAF we will never be able to achieve self reliance .

 

[vijay jagannathan]

Vijay, I really don't understand the head and tail of what you said just now can you please check what you have posted on post 1202 and my reply on post 1203, my humble request, maintain some decorum.

It was an apt reply for your post 1206. I suppose using the word mental ejaculation and Rant sounds like maintaining decorum to you.

 

[vijay jagannathan]

I never said that LCA is perfect and free from flaws. but you need to understand the improtance of supporting LCA project . If project dies now without support from IAF we will never be able to achieve self reliance .

When I say develop Mark 2 in 12 months does it sound like I am not supporting Tejas program? This mantra of self reliance and indiginisation needs to be balanced against various factors. Do it on the side lines. You jump in the mainstream airdefense and say take this plane we made it but its half made. what is this??

You really need to read my posts. I m asking to get the mark 2 out. not scrapping the program. scrap the program if mark 2 will take 5 years or do it on the side lines like what is GTRE doing with Kaveri. Its bloody well the same scenario there. Will you fit kaveri into Tejas when it is pushed down your throat in its present form? Ok lets be pragmatic. 5 more years for a preinduction plane is a joke.

 

[nitesh]

It was an apt reply for your post 1206. I suppose using the word mental ejaculation and Rant sounds like maintaining decorum to you.

Boss reply to the post what I asked, where did I said I want to be a pilot? Don't interrelate things and try to escape. You are really unable to post any coherent reason as what is your problem with testing schedule and why you are so eager to see a crash. If there is some logical reasoning behind that please put if forward.

 

[SHASH2K2]

When I say develop Mark 2 in 12 months does it sound like I am not supporting Tejas program? This mantra of self reliance and indiginisation needs to be balanced against various factors. Do it on the side lines. You jump in the mainstream airdefense and say take this plane we made it but its half made. what is this??

You really need to read my posts. I m asking to get the mark 2 out. not scrapping the program. scrap the program if mark 2 will take 5 years or do it on the side lines like what is GTRE doing with Kaveri. Its bloody well the same scenario there. Will you fit kaveri into Tejas when it is pushed down your throat in its present form? Ok lets be pragmatic. 5 more years for a preinduction plane is a joke.

Can you compare amount of money LCA got to any other planes developments . Its got least amount of money and also scientists were forced to redesign wheel for almost all systems including various testing facilities as well. Also there is something called as FOC and ADA has promised to integrate BVR capability before that. We are newbies in plane development and we should learn something from china. They never halt or delay a program just because a subsystem is not upto the mark. FOC is still away and those subsystems can still be integrated . We donot have technical expertise of Lockheed martin of Boeing. As nitesh said earlier Even F16 were not perfect in initial years but still USA inducted them .

I dont mind IAF being demanding. Every user should be demanding but you cannot demand moon and that too when our r&d is at infancy stage. amount of money invested in LCA may look huge to Indians but compared to westers countries its very small . I am sure you must have gone through Israel denying AESA technology to us . what can ADA do for that . It will definitely delay the MK2 final version and ADA can do nothing about it. similarly kaveri undedelivered and ADA got under powered engine and they cannot do anything about it . you need to be demanding but at the same time one should understand ground realities as well. demanding Mk2 is 1 year sound good but one has to consider its feasibility as well. we will not be getting GE 414 engines in a year. How will you fly the MK2 then?

 

[vijay jagannathan]

Boss reply to the post what I asked, where did I said I want to be a pilot? Don't interrelate things and try to escape. You are really unable to post any coherent reason as what is your problem with testing schedule and why you are so eager to see a crash. If there is some logical reasoning behind that please put if forward.

I did not say you want to be a pilot in IAF. It implies anyone wanting to be a fighter pilot that too a test pilot the risks are obvious.

For 1500 sorties they have not pushed the bird.The have flown it. OK they flew it in various conditions including 2 night flights.The ADA has never made the performance parameters public. The LSP 6 should have taken flight and performance parameters released before IOC. The ADA hasn't had the courage or conviction to do that. The way LSP-6 flight has been pushed very methodically can be explained by the way LSP-5 has been delayed for 6 months. What more logical reasoning do you need? Hasn't this how it has happened till now?

do you have a better explanation?

 

[vijay jagannathan]

Can you compare amount of money LCA got to any other planes developments . Its got least amount of money and also scientists were forced to redesign wheel for almost all systems including various testing facilities as well. Also there is something called as FOC and ADA has promised to integrate BVR capability before that. We are newbies in plane development and we should learn something from china. They never halt or delay a program just because a subsystem is not upto the mark. FOC is still away and those subsystems can still be integrated . We donot have technical expertise of Lockheed martin of Boeing. As nitesh said earlier Even F16 were not perfect in initial years but still USA inducted them .

I dont mind IAF being demanding. Every user should be demanding but you cannot demand moon and that too when our r&d is at infancy stage. amount of money invested in LCA may look huge to Indians but compared to westers countries its very small . I am sure you must have gone through Israel denying AESA technology to us . what can ADA do for that . It will definitely delay the MK2 final version and ADA can do nothing about it. similarly kaveri undedelivered and ADA got under powered engine and they cannot do anything about it . you need to be demanding but at the same time one should understand ground realities as well. demanding Mk2 is 1 year sound good but one has to consider its feasibility as well. we will not be getting GE 414 engines in a year. How will you fly the MK2 then?

I agree with everything you say---every word. Let ADA do it on the sidelines like GTRE. GTRE had better sense(or better sense prevailed). There is research and development and then there is real time. R and D products cannot be thrust into real time. The end user WILL NOT BE HAPPY. That does not mean IAF does not support the cause. Has it not sent a commite to oversee? Has it not lent pilots for testing? When the product isn't upto the IAF's mark acknowlledge and come back witha better product. Don't turn around and say IAF wants American or german products. Thats childish.