ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Neelkanth]

@Neelkanth, major countries (and specially the ones who aspire for big power status) depend on local industrial base for equipment.

I am sorry to say that Navy has TOO MUCH IMPORT DEPENDENCE. The word indigenous is flawed, as PSU also import a lot. We hoped that ship sensors and weapons will start to be sourced from local industry, but unfortunately there is a reversal, and there is a queue for foreign equipment.

Russian navy has ordered Mig-29K after having operated Su-33. It realized that Mig is more cost effective while able to do similar tasks. I think IN has a good aircraft in hand, that is practically developed through IN funds. Logical to acquire it for future also. I think ski jump Carrier are adequate for India. AWACS coverage can be provided from land bases. It is not necessary for AWACS to fly from Carrier. Carrier can be used for strike packages of aircraft (fixed wing and heli) as they are supposed to be used. What is needed is EW version of Mig-29K.

Mig can be supported by Indian industry as we are familiar with it. We can build its engine and most spares.

That is unlikely to change. if Industrial capacity is non existent then from where does one get weapons?

We need not just ToT but also IPRs for home production or we can invest in building it. Russia will never in its right mind will give us the technology or the Intellectual property rights as we will be able to take away its customers.

Countries which aspire to be Big powers need a Industrial and R&D base to support development of cutting edge. do we have it, today ? our threats are very much real today... lets get real about the scene 'today'.

We don't need flat tops then we don't need to make India a powerful state we need to develop the navy in to a true Blue water navy, an expeditionary force and that will happen through Ski jumps ? where CBGS have to operate far away from home territory or we have to give up the notion of become a Big power and remain a regional one.

The threat that we have and the industrial capacity that we have simply don't match up. and even if we start from this moment onward even if we start it will take decades to build it up to the cutting edge then. so the Navy and the AF and the army should wait till domestic production starts.

please broaden your perspective a bit.

 

[garg_bharat]

"true Blue water navy, an expeditionary force"

These are slogans ONLY. It is just a recipe for disaster and humiliation.

"notion of become a Big power"

Can you define how "Big Power" will come, and explain role of flat-tops in it??


"The threat that we have and the industrial capacity that we have simply don't match up."

And that threat will be tackled by "true Blue water navy, an expeditionary force"

The Navy is importing sensors, weapons, mechanical everything of ships. The imports are DUE TO NAVY SPECIFICATIONS. The drive to indigenize is completely lost in noise.

It was not so. Something happened in Congressi 10 year rule. Things were starting to go in the right direction in 2004.

 

[garg_bharat]

I am appalled that the local AC program has tuned into an imported AC program. How did that happen? And how the threat perception changed? Simply because our program was sabotaged by external forces.

 

[Panjab47]

Basically three parts of ship, float maneuver fight.

In float we are 90% indigenous more is not cost effective
In maneuver it is 50-70

Fight it is 20-40

There has been big progress, I would not worry navy has vision & the will to implement it.

 

[garg_bharat]

Panjab47, the vision has to show in actions. I have said before - Vikrant was a three ship class. Now this class is foreclosed at one ship thereby sinking the investment and experience in building it. Now Navy is looking for a foreign yard to build its next Carrier. Is that vision? And which invasion we are planning, far away from our shores, which requires a flat-top?

And how a flat-top is going to counter the "chinese" threat. I want a detailed explanation.

The 3 planned Carriers were expected to cost around 10B. With change in plan, it may cost 30B. As they say "who benefits" when such manipulation is underway.

A conventional Carrier is fine for India as the Carrier does not deploy as much. It is not like USA where each Carrier is on deployment every year.

 

[Yumdoot]

^^^ even for US Navy all the carriers are not in deployment round the year.

Mostly it is 3 carriers out of 10 that are on duty the rest just berth or are under repairs.

https://news.usni.org/2015/11/04/na...-maintenance-other-5-strained-to-meet-demands

This is better link:
http://www.stripes.com/news/in-era-of-tight-budgets-how-many-aircraft-carriers-are-enough-1.287563

With 11 carriers, the Navy can maintain an average of 3.5 carriers deployed, according to retired Vice Adm. Peter Daly, who commanded a carrier strike group.

 

[Neelkanth]

"true Blue water navy, an expeditionary force"

These are slogans ONLY. It is just a recipe for disaster and humiliation.

You conveniently evade the points that are made and resort to rhetoric. How are they Slogans Only? And how will they be a recipe for disaster and humiliation? explain.

"notion of become a Big power"

Can you define how "Big Power" will come, and explain role of flat-tops in it??

The big power point was brought up by you. Here have a heartfull read : https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-...ulfill-to-be-considered-as-a-world-superpower

I merely explained that flat tops are better war machines than ski jumps, can project power in ways no other war machine can. if you are unsure about this then i guess, you didn't read my previous post or You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

"The threat that we have and the industrial capacity that we have simply don't match up."

And that threat will be tackled by "true Blue water navy, an expeditionary force"

The threat that we have in the IOR and they can be tackled by a true blue water navy. Off course it will be... I mean do you have doubts ?

By the way it was not about the navy evolving into a expeditionary force. It was about us lacking the Industrial capacity and them having better domestic capacity than us. so what should we do let the Chinese walk over cuz we cannot make them better ? or procure better weapons ?

The Navy is importing sensors, weapons, mechanical everything of ships. The imports are DUE TO NAVY SPECIFICATIONS. The drive to indigenize is completely lost in noise.

THE SPECIFICATIONS ARE THERE BECAUSE OF THE THREAT, ITS A CAT AND MOUSE GAME ITS BETTER TO BE THE CAT THAN A MOUSE. IF ONE CANNOT BE A CAT ONE WILL BE A MOUSE.

And those specifications aren't derived out of thin air, if Chinese were still using World War 2 era weapons we wouldn't even need aircraft carriers for them or secure satellite communication.

See caps lock isn't hard to use, but it won't still drive the point as words remain the same and please make a better argument than by increasing the .. err size of fonts or using caps lock.. it doesn't actually help the cause of reason. Why waste the lowly pixels?

It was not so. Something happened in Congressi 10 year rule. Things were starting to go in the right direction in 2004.

I agree 100%... so should we waste another 10 years on cribbing over it ? or begin today, BTW Indegenization doesn't happen overnight as stated in my previous post it takes decades of R&D and Industrial capacity growth. You cannot wake up one fine day and decide Lets make the most powerful AESA Radar and IRST Sensors the planet has ever seen, because the Chinese now have a stealth plane.

You can blame any one you like, caught in your own pessimism you are unable to even entertain a perspective and debate on its merit and the painstaking solution of the quagmire we are caught in is to Continue R&D on weapon systems at home, while buy what you can to protect ourself, till the time we achieve self sufficiency. This isn't so hard to see. Now kindly excuse me from this debate since your point is only to crib and complain and not to ponder on the solutions. Thank you.

Cursory Note : I am reminded of the George fellow from Airlift while I typed out this. Funny

 

[garg_bharat]

@Neelkanth, long post but no objectivity.

Generalizations and a fake Chinese threat in IOR. That's all.

Chinese will threaten us right in our backyard, if situation worsens.

IN has lost way, is focussing on expensive imports, ignoring domestic alternatives. It is ignoring lack of asw capacity, lack of minesweepers, lack of coastal defence.

All evidence points to manipulation and corruption. The ship prices are blowing up beyond any reasonable level.

I can only hope this situation changes otherwise this country is up for a lot of trouble.

 

[Narasimh]

Here you are. N LCAs are now in goa doing trials at SBTF.View attachment 8178

Superb! Any Pics available?
Last time the Ski jump with NP1 was full of surprises for the ADA as the bird exceeded expectations in various flight parameters.. Hopefully things are streamlined after the data was obtained.

 

[Neelkanth]

@Neelkanth, long post but no objectivity.

Generalizations and a fake Chinese threat in IOR. That's all.

Chinese will threaten us right in our backyard, if situation worsens.

IN has lost way, is focussing on expensive imports, ignoring domestic alternatives. It is ignoring lack of asw capacity, lack of minesweepers, lack of coastal defence.

All evidence points to manipulation and corruption. The ship prices are blowing up beyond any reasonable level.

I can only hope this situation changes otherwise this country is up for a lot of trouble.

Sure Sir, Kindly apprise the Admiral of the IN and the Raksha Mantri of the same. also the inteligence Agencies too.

Regards,
Neel

 

[Panjab47]

Idk, @garg_bharat this is India, one carrier will be built now & one more by almost 2030.

Fact is plans will change by then anyway so should not worry about it.

Navy may be thinking of getting nuclear carrier in case something with gcc pops up.

Remember that usa was not expected to collapse so quick under obama. Lot of these meetings etc even with USA & IAF are just to waste time & energy of our officers.

We won't be powerful enough to tell them to fuck off completely for perhaps another 10 years & till then you have to filter out paid media nonsense.

I personally don't think we will be getting rafale, f18 or us carrier. I think in end we will probably collaborate with Russia on storm.

For nuclear reactor we can't put couple sub reactors like usa first did in 60s. It's a big thing that India was able to induct Kamorta & Kolkota last year alone.

If you see defencylopedia analysis China is out producing us massively. With light missiles boats guarding interior they can try to push into Andaman.

One with eyes (industrial capacity) has vision, if IN has plans to build that up, they are doing good.

 

[garg_bharat]

The cooperation with Americans is good. But this plan for nuclear Carrier seems stupid.
Please develop the reactor and EMALS before you decide to build the Carrier.

Such projects should be domestic as the impact is too big. Once you get in the big league, you have to fend for yourself.

American Carriers are tools for power projection. There is no other sane purpose to them.

 

[Panjab47]

The United States defines 4.5 generation fighter aircraft as fourth generation jet fighters that have been upgraded with AESA radar, high capacity data-link, enhanced avionics, and "the ability to deploy current and reasonably foreseeable advanced armaments."
--
That is true but we also probably want to push our weight in E Africa Ior & Malay Peninsula/Indonesia.

Business development usually happens in the opposite way, get order then build capacity.

It is true though, IN us basically building surface vessels while having no subs & hoping for the best.

Navy is arguably the hardest to upgrade so we just have to put up with it.

I don't think we're going to get electronic catapult but steam is definitely possible for Vikrant 2.


I think India is securing itself on economic front before switching to Russia. I think a lot of this is just to avoid negative attention while USA election is going on.

Goi knows us presidents usually focus on china first term then us second.

That gives us 5 years including this one, where we are under the radar.

I don't think we'll ever get anything from usa as it asks for too much. When it stops asking it won't have anything worthwhile anyway & will be another brazil.



I know this stuff is cause for concern but I got tired of paid media crap. 2 months ago it was rafale deal will be signed in 5 days, every day 4 stories on rafale.

Now they have found new monkey, that's why I'm sceptical. 70% of our equipment including basically our entire tank fleet & air force is Russian.

Regardless of anything else, they're not gonna piss us off we're not gonna piss them off.

 

[Narasimh]

Requesting clarification from our knowledgable members on the below:
Can LCA/Tejas be converted to remotely piloted combat vehicle much like QF-16(With help from Boeing perhaps)?

My logic for Tejas RPCV is it would probably be able to increase its flight envelope which is otherwise unsafe for pilots and probably reduce the weight of the aircraft by removing the pilot's support systems and carry more fuel and have better range.

Does it make sense or is it a long shot? (And I am asking this in the context of feasibility and not possibility)

Thanks

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Requesting clarification from our knowledgable members on the below:
Can LCA/Tejas be converted to remotely piloted combat vehicle much like QF-16(With help from Boeing perhaps)?

My logic for Tejas RPCV is it would probably be able to increase its flight envelope which is otherwise unsafe for pilots and probably reduce the weight of the aircraft by removing the pilot's support systems and carry more fuel and have better range.

Does it make sense or is it a long shot? (And I am asking this in the context of feasibility and not possibility)

Thanks

Don't want to offend you man but can you think sensibly?
It may be possible with any advanced aircraft like future MCA or LCA Mk2.
If LCA can be an unmanned fighter, then, pakistani jf17 would be used as a space shuttle. Hope you understand. :biggrin2:

 

[Zebra]

DEFExpo 2016 : F414-INS6 for LCA Tejas Mk II by year end , New Contract for F404-IN20 in pipeline for Tejas MK-1A : GE
Published April 6, 2016
SOURCE : IDRW NEWS NETWORK


GE officials at recently concluded DEFExpo 2016 in Goa have confirmed to idrw.org that considerable progress on the development of F414-INS6 has been made and development work of F414-INS6 for LCA Tejas Mk II will be completed by the end of 2016 .

” We are ready to initiate technology transfer for F414-INS6 engine production with HAL and we are in talks for continuing supply of F404-IN20 engines for LCA Tejas Mk I and for its variants ( MK-1A),” Said GE official to idrw.org .

he also added that ” Engine support solutions for F404-IN20 engines for LCA Tejas Mk I in IAF fleet is already available ” . The F414-INS6 engine has a maximum power output of 98 kiloNewtons (kN) for which GE has been awarded an order for supply of 99 engines for the Tejas Mark II.

While Indian Air Force has agreed to place fresh orders for 80 LCA-Mark 1A which will be powered by F404-IN20 engines which has a maximum power output of 84 kiloNewtons (kN) it’s not clear when fresh orders for F404-IN20 engines will be placed but official hinted at backchannel talks with HAL.

DRDO and GE are also in talks in the joint development of new engine which can generate 110 KN of peak power required for Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), a fifth-generation medium fighter jet that ADA/DRDO plans to develop next.

http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show-2015/bright-future-ge-s-f414-fighter-engine
Jun 16, 2015

.......The engine was also selected by India for the LCA Mk.2. The first flight test engine will ship in the fourth quarter of this year, with production to begin in 2018.......

So it was all fixed from day one.

 

[harsh]

Requesting clarification from our knowledgable members on the below:
Can LCA/Tejas be converted to remotely piloted combat vehicle much like QF-16(With help from Boeing perhaps)?

My logic for Tejas RPCV is it would probably be able to increase its flight envelope which is otherwise unsafe for pilots and probably reduce the weight of the aircraft by removing the pilot's support systems and carry more fuel and have better range.

Does it make sense or is it a long shot? (And I am asking this in the context of feasibility and not possibility)

Thanks

If they can make f-16 unmanned then we can do it with lca also but where is the technology.

USA possess technology we don't. So we can not make it unmanned unless USA give technology to us which seems impossible right now

 

[tejas warrior]

MBDA a world leader in missile systems has reportedly offered India its ASRAAM (Advanced Short-Range Air-to-Air Missile) Within Visual Range (WVR) Infra-red Air dominance Missile for integration on India’s Indigenously developed LCA-Tejas fighter jet . According to reliable sources close to idrw.org , MBDA reportedly made this offer to Indian Defence Ministry officials at recently concluded Defexpo 2016 in Goa .MBDA is also open to exploring possible sale and Integration of MICA (Missile d’interception et de combat aérien) medium range air-to-air interception and aerial combat missiles into LCA-Tejas . India few years ago had placed orders for MBDA’s MICA air-to-air missiles for upgraded Mirage 2000s and Close-Combat Air-Air Missile ASRAAM will be procured for Integration with India’s Ground Strike Jaguar fighter jets. India already has selected Israeli Derby BVRAAM and Python-5 WVRAAM Air dominance Missile for integration on India’s which will be integrated into LCA-Tejas and Derby BVRAAM already has been successfully test fired sometime back but testing of Python-5 is yet to be carried .

http://idrw.org/asraam-for-lca-tejas/ .

 

[Narasimh]

Don't want to offend you man but can you think sensibly?
It may be possible with any advanced aircraft like future MCA or LCA Mk2.
If LCA can be an unmanned fighter, then, pakistani jf17 would be used as a space shuttle. Hope you understand. :biggrin2:

I understand your point
I read somewhere we are working with Israel to make our Chetak Choppers into Unmanned versions.. So this idea comes to my mind if we are able to do with Chetak then with LCA also it might be possible.. Though QF-16 is for target practice, we could modify the LCA to make it a UCAV as strike units.. Hence the proposal..

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

I understand your point
I read somewhere we are working with Israel to make our Chetak Choppers into Unmanned versions.. So this idea comes to my mind if we are able to do with Chetak then with LCA also it might be possible.. Though QF-16 is for target practice, we could modify the LCA to make it a UCAV as strike units.. Hence the proposal..

We were working on it

No longer
The projects CT was called off when modi came to power