ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Kunal Biswas]

For an Idea ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The DM has said crystal clear, That HAL has to get that objective at any cost ..

Their is nothing more to add, Except their will be another line but when and who is not yet clear ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

From My collection >

Martin baker ejection seat for MK1 ..

 

[sgarg]

No it is not so simple. HAL has dozens of foreign vendors for LCA, and they will not start production till they get firm order backed by advance payment or Letter of Credit. And HAL will not commit till they get the Green signal from all the agencies involved.

And components for Aerospace applications are not kept in stock . The lead time can easily be between 6 months to a year also in some cases.

Not sure why people on this forum have so much difficulty seeing the simple things.
If a component comes from foreign sources, it does not need machinery at HAL. It only needs a lead time - that is order must be placed well in time before the part is needed. This has been done for the engines and engines are already in stock. HAL has engines already in warehouse for the first run of 20 Tejas SP series.

After MOD has given a firm order (HAL has firm order for 20 IOC standard Tejas), there is nothing in the way of ordering any foreign or domestic components.

What is Tejas specific? Is the building erected for Tejas is restricted to Tejas (and no other plane can be assembled there?). Or a composites laying machine can be used only for Tejas wing and no other aircraft wing can be made? This is what Dassault has been saying all along - that HAL does not have facilities for modern airplane manufacturing. Why HAL is loading everything on the Tejas project.

There is no shortage of funds with HAL. There is ONLY shortage of intent.

 

[ersakthivel]

Not sure why people on this forum have so much difficulty seeing the simple things.
If a component comes from foreign sources, it does not need machinery at HAL. It only needs a lead time - that is order must be placed well in time before the part is needed. This has been done for the engines and engines are already in stock. HAL has engines already in warehouse for the first run of 20 Tejas SP series.

After MOD has given a firm order (HAL has firm order for 20 IOC standard Tejas), there is nothing in the way of ordering any foreign or domestic components.

What is Tejas specific? Is the building erected for Tejas is restricted to Tejas (and no other plane can be assembled there?). Or a composites laying machine can be used only for Tejas wing and no other aircraft wing can be made? This is what Dassault has been saying all along - that HAL does not have facilities for modern airplane manufacturing. Why HAL is loading everything on the Tejas project.

other aircrafts have their own dedicated facilities and machines continuously occupied for production of other aircrafts. if you have proof those machines are sitting idle please give.

There is no shortage of funds with HAL. There is ONLY shortage of intent.

dasault is simply lying to wriggle out of its commitment from TOT.

nothing more nothing less.

Dassault has not invented composite laying machine. Got it? These machines are made by international machine tool makers, not by aerospace companies.

So if french airforce gives just 40 orders for Dassaults with a total worth of about 800 million dollars(thats what the value of tejas mk1 orders), and a modern production line with those machines cost about 400 million dollars, then Dassault too cant buy such machines. It too has to make those composites by hand like HAL does.

Economies of scales in production alone justifies investments in modern exorbitantly priced production line. nothing else. neither Dassault nor HAL is into charity.

Especially HAL will have to face CAG scrutiny on its decision to spend those 400 million dollars for an order worth 800 million dollar. Even if you give a profit margin of thirty percent still HAL will loss 10 million dollars definitely.

 

[ersakthivel]

Not sure why people on this forum have so much difficulty seeing the simple things.
If a component comes from foreign sources, it does not need machinery at HAL. It only needs a lead time - that is order must be placed well in time before the part is needed. This has been done for the engines and engines are already in stock. HAL has engines already in warehouse for the first run of 20 Tejas SP series.

After MOD has given a firm order (HAL has firm order for 20 IOC standard Tejas), there is nothing in the way of ordering any foreign or domestic components.

What is Tejas specific? Is the building erected for Tejas is restricted to Tejas (and no other plane can be assembled there?). Or a composites laying machine can be used only for Tejas wing and no other aircraft wing can be made? This is what Dassault has been saying all along - that HAL does not have facilities for modern airplane manufacturing. Why HAL is loading everything on the Tejas project.

There is no shortage of funds with HAL. There is ONLY shortage of intent.

you fail to understand that close to half a billion dollar investment on state of art tejas mk1 production line churning out 16 fighters an year can only fructify if IAF gives orders in hundreds for tejas mk1.

For HAL the IAF promise of 84 tejas mk2 is just a pie in the sky, Given the penchant of IAF to change specs midway , HAL can not second guess whether tejas mk2 production will start in time or our DM-fadnavis duo will select fake in india- gripen over tejas mk2.

SO what do you expect HAl to do with half a billion production lines for tejas after the 40 tejas mk1 orders are over.

HAL and FGFA are different cup of tea and it may require whole new techs for production and tejas production line may or may not suit them a decade into the future.

Su-30 MKI has fixed orders and fixed facilities to produce remaining orders from IAF.

SO do you expect HAL to write off the half a billion dollar investment after finishing just 40 tejas mk1?
otherwise HAL too will make empty promises on delivering 12 tejas every year from next year, becaue it nows that neither MOD nor IAF is interested in footing the bill of half a billion dollar for tejas production line.

This is a suggestion from BR,

The problems which gurus above mentioned can be solved easily if there is political commitment is there.
Order 15 Sq LCAs total Mk1 and Mk2. Immediately.
Create a new company HAL Tejas Ltd. Transfer all production staff, infra etc to the new new company. Continue Mk1 production till Mk2 is not cleared for production.
Make IAF deeply involved in Mk2.
36 AC's per year production capability which means 10 years worth orders at full capacity.
49% disinvestment by IPO with good premium.
Open LCA Mk1 and Mk2 for exports.

If our IIT educated DM does stuff like this then real make in india aerospace industry will emerge. if not we will have fake in india G only. And good bye tejas mk2!!!

if such orders are given then HAL or any other firm will sink in the money. Other wise it is just useless to accuse why HAL is not putting in the money.

ANyway this discussion is going like a dog chasing its tail. No use in furthering it.

But instead of this what is going on is vayu article by HAL adviser matheswaran which describes tejas as below,

Vayu-2/15.LCA feature by AM Matheswaran.Traces the evolution of it from HF-24/Gnat era. Fundamental mistakes in concept,a light aircraft that brings with it performance v.similar to the aircraft it is replacing ,MIG-21,with no great capability increase to meet current and future needs. Mk-1 doesn't meet the IAF's reqs. We're fooling ourselves if we think that a Mk-2 will be equiv to a Rafale or equiv.The two best "light fighters" in history,the MIG-21 and F-16. Asks whether the MK-2 should be single or twin-engined. Right now,he feels that the LCA is going the same way as the HF-24.Two major failures of the programme,the engine and AESA radar.On the latter,there was a recent item about the DRDO saying that "within 2 years" they would have our desi AESA radar ready and hoped that it would be used on the LCA,to replace the Israeli one. Here there is a more realistic possibility of this happening than the engine (Kaveri). Other tech achievements have been praised (composites,etc.),but our ability to put together a fully operational aircraft and get series production running smoothly has meant that the IAF has looked elsewhere for its needs.

With such opinion from IAF leading lights how will HAL dump money into production line?

 

[bennedose]

Methinks Matheswaran-avargal doth protest too much - but then that quote is from my friend Philip of BR and I have not yet got my hands on that issue of Vayu (why does he get it before me - I live closer to Delhi than him?).

MiG 21 because one of the best light fighters in the world partly because the IAF got married to it and a lot of its later development was outsourced to USSR/Russia after IAF had accepted a nearly useless MiG 21 with 2 lousy missiles and no gun and very short legs. F-16 became one of the best because it was designed from ground up based on complaints by US aviators in Vietnam who wanted a plane that could (turn on a dime). After air forces have used those 2 typoes for 30 to 50 years and the manufacturers encouraged to keep on making changes - people like Matheswaran are now saying that they were the best. Who knows, maybe in 30 years people will say Su-30 MKI was the best large fighter - but we don;t know. The LCA needs to be given a chance without making silly excuses. Foreign air forces have fought with almost unflyable aircraft because they were forced to depend on their own manufacture and had no agents, sellers and brochures to compare.

 

[ersakthivel]

Methinks Matheswaran-avargal doth protest too much - but then that quote is from my friend Philip of BR and I have not yet got my hands on that issue of Vayu (why does he get it before me - I live closer to Delhi than him?).

MiG 21 because one of the best light fighters in the world partly because the IAF got married to it and a lot of its later development was outsourced to USSR/Russia after IAF had accepted a nearly useless MiG 21 with 2 lousy missiles and no gun and very short legs. F-16 became one of the best because it was designed from ground up based on complaints by US aviators in Vietnam who wanted a plane that could (turn on a dime). After air forces have used those 2 typoes for 30 to 50 years and the manufacturers encouraged to keep on making changes - people like Matheswaran are now saying that they were the best. Who knows, maybe in 30 years people will say Su-30 MKI was the best large fighter - but we don;t know. The LCA needs to be given a chance without making silly excuses. Foreign air forces have fought with almost unflyable aircraft because they were forced to depend on their own manufacture and had no agents, sellers and brochures to compare.

yes that quote was from BR also,because I could not find the article referred as written by matheswaran.

http://www.stratpost.com/light-combat-aircraft-need-for-course-correction-ii

I think it must be the above article. Matheswaran says that tejas has the same combat radius as that of mig-21.

Tejas was reported to have a combat radius of 500 Km even in IOC-2 when its center line fuel tank was not validated as per PIb release!!!
Does mig-21 have 500 km combat radius? i really doubt it.

There are many spurious claims in that article. He insists that DRDO need not have included those top of the shelf technologies that are now in tejas mk1 like RSS fly bywire composite delta!!!

Even with all this tech IAF is not willing to accept tejas , If these techs were not used , IAF would never have accepted tejas even in 40 numbers. because both mirage-2000 and F-16 uses the same RSS fly by wire tech. The STR wanted by IAf for tejas mk1 is 18 deg which is the same as that of RSS fly by wire F-16!!!!
Then how could ADA manage the same STR with 84 Kn 13.2 meter length fuselage without FBW, RSS and composites is another mystery!!!

Any way this repeated comparison of tejas to Gnat and Mig-21 is really disturbing , why senior IAF guys fail to understand the tech difference between two, and still do the silly thing of comparing them again and again, which is picked up world media to portray tejas in very poor light?

they could visualize a need for updated jaguar to serve for another decade, but when it comes to tejas mk1 they always go to compare it with mig-21 and Gnat!!!

Why is India losing the plot?

It appears that history is repeating itself. The HF-24, although an excellent design, failed to meet a significant part of its operational requirement – the air defence role – due to its underpowered engines. A failure to address this critical need was the primary reason why the air force phased it out prematurely. It resulted in discontinuity in the indigenous fighter development capability.

The expertise created from the HF-24 programme was allowed to decay. Work on the LCA began from scratch.

Given the serious shortfall in the performance of the LCA, a focus on its inability to meet the ASR would result in a repetition of the HF-24 story. That's why, it is important to recognise the larger strategic need, which is consolidation of the indigenous fighter aircraft development capability.

For this, the LCA needs to be audited appropriately, taking into consideration its strengths and deficiencies. Here the original Light Weight Fighter programme offers the right lessons. This programme focused on developing a Light Weight Fighter at a low cost but with the performance parameters of a frontline fighter that could compliment the more expensive, larger and technically far superior F-15. This is how the Hi-Lo mix evolved.

In a similar manner if the LCA had met the ASR, it would have complimented the higher and expensive mix of Su-30 and MMRCA. The crux is in performance.

But since there are serious deficiencies in performance, the LCA cannot become the IAF 's frontline fighter in the Lo segment. Neither can the LCA fill the slot of the MMRCA or its equivalent role. More importantly, the IAF cannot afford to look for a one-to-one replacement of its ageing MiG-21.

India's profile and its environment of the 1970s and early 80s may have sufficed with a one-to-one replacement for the MiG-21. India's increasing stature and global role, its threat environment and rapid technological developments in the world mandates an aircraft with better performance and radius of action in this segment.

One can see this in the Chinese case. The JF-17, similar to the LCA, is developed for export customers and has no place in the PLAAF's inventory.

What is the solution?

The solution is to re-strategise the LCA's slot in the IAF's operational force structure, while keeping the need to continue, consolidate and stabilise India's fighter aircraft industry.

This will call for a realistic assessment of the LCA's operational role.

More importantly, the need to develop the next version as the first main frontline indigenous fighter aircraft should be realised quickly. A broader strategy will need to be put in place for this to happen.

The LCA MK II should be seen as the vehicle that will address the requirements of larger operational radius, better performance and greater indigenisation.

It could either be a single-engine aircraft with a redesigned airframe and a larger fuel capacity on the lines of the Gripen NG or it could be a twin-engine version of the LCA with just incremental technology.

A cost-benefit-performance analysis of the two needs to be deliberated seriously.

This can only be achieved if industry is allowed to take full charge, with private industry playing a major role and a foreign OEM is brought in as a risk-sharing partner and technology provider.

How did he conclude that tejas mk1 and JF-17 are equal?

In no airshows JF-17 has demoed the 19 second vertical loop, which was done by tejas mk1 in aeroindia 2013 even when its flight envelope was restricted to 20 deg AOA and 6G. So how can they become equal?

No one really knows the hot weather STR and ITR of the canard delta gripen in indian conditions, mysteriously SAAB did not demo it in any aeroindia.

It is open knowledge that hot indian climate saps 12 percent of wing lift and ten percent of engine thrust for any fighter.

In that case can those 4.5 the gen MMRCA birds demo their brochure STrs and ITRs here in 40 deg temp bangalore which is situated 1 Km above sea level?

Also in aeroindia 2013 both rafale and tejas mk1 completed a vertical loop in the same 19-20 seconds .Doesn't seem to be much difference at all.

This is the crux of the argument used by matheswaran to deny the stipulated role for tejas mk1 in IAF, which is now virtually the same argument used by MAnohar Parrikar fadnavis duo in fake in India foreign light fighter in place of tejas!!!!

can some from IAf explain while navy manages to build so much stuff like N subs, sonars, and almost all surface combatants in full co ordination with those same discredited defence PSUs, why IAf couldn't even manage a basic trainer ?

We should hand over the control of national fighter programs in future to Naval aviators who don't do such silly comparison, especially guys like Maolonkar who cryptically explained away the so called sob stories on short fall of few degs of STR from IAF ASR to karthik(in BR).

But our airforce people always say that so and so shortfalls in STR and under powered mk1 is deadly for IAF, but have no qualms in accepting used mirage-2000 trainers as attrition replacement. They are willing to spend 45 million dollar on even much more under powered mirage with much shorter range air to air missiles than the proposed Astra for tejas mk1!!!

Also the MMRCA team member Manmohan bahadur made two different statements in two of his articles while replying to bharath karnard,

1.rafale has thrice the range of tejas,

2.rafale has thrice the range of su-30 MKI under similar external loads.

certainly both of them cant be true!!!!

Some interesting aerodynamic discussions on lift and sustained turn rate from BR,

https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6663&start=3320

Ah.. Victor babu is onree "pheeling" but not pooching Unkal Googal enough. Pliss to poocho Unkal about the Former Yugoslav phytyr called Novi Avion .. If not , phoooch Wiki Mamu and lookee Hiyar . This is exactly what Dassault sold to the Yugoslavs. A close canard delta, with Rafale like intake and front parts and an M-88 Yinjin, with the Rafale derived FCS. In short a single engined Rafale light.

So really with the Novi Avion contract under the bag, Rafale became tight fisted and didn't really care too much about the LCA. The Yindoos wanted a digital FCS and not the analog one from the Mirage 2k, Dassault thought , pah.. dhotiwallahs asking too much, we are putting in some avant grade Parfum in our Rafale and we can give them only Eau De Cologne from M2K. Dhotiwallahs went to Amereekis and finally developed a super duper cutting edge FBW /FCS themselves.

Yinjin again, dhotiwallahs said, this M-88 is too weak for us, we need more power, and went with GE-404 . Misunphorchunately for Dassault, Yugoslavia imploded and with that the huge dollahs they thought they had raked in for their Rafale and M-88 investments via amortising those over a light fighter as well. They chose the wrong horse when they went with Yugoslavia and stiffed the dhotiwallahs.

So, basically , in Inglees, what Matheswaran and you are flogging is the dead duck Novi Avion, which as back then the studies and the actions of the ADA showed will SIMPLY not have met the IAF requirements even back in that time , not to mention today.

There were 4 light fighters that began at roughly the same time with very nearly similar configs (3 with canard delta) and 1 (LCA with pure delta). The 3 delta canards were the Gripen, Novi Avion and an Indonesian effort (I don't remember the name). The Novi Avion got killed when Yugoslavia imploded and the 1998 currency crisis did in the Indonesian effort. Only the Gripen and LCA remain. Despite best efforts to kill it via sanctions and NATASHAS, it is a testimony to the persistence, skills, talent and dogged determination of the dhotiwallahs ,that the LCA is going to see the light of the day and actually be a pretty competitive product.

You can shake your head like a Thanjavur doll (poocho Unkal for that as well), in all your majestic ignorance, but facts are facts. Or
Quote:
in frat boy Inglees, the facts are phat!
We actually have succeeded. Take a chill pill and have a good day.

Ps. The Novi Avion layout will be like your fan boy pics. Unkal has bicchars of that as well (with a mini Rafale nose and intake grafted in). But remember, that didn't cut the mustard back then, and won't now as well.

Above post by Vina in BR makes matheswaran's claim of the rejected canard delta even more interesting!!!

 

[Pulkit]

@ersakthivel Was expecting response from you on #4700.

 

[ersakthivel]

MOD has been restriction investment on Tejas Assembly line and the tech is not advanced in comparison to the world tech.


I know this , where did i went against what you just said ... kindly elaborate .



I have also said many times the order placed is to low to for a good production rate i.e. setting up of good production line .

I think you have not read my posts read them again .
post 4683 4666 specially 4668 4673 4674

Even I m not defensing HAL

I have been asking this question on this forum and others for a long long time.




Time have changed .
Today DM is not like the old one ....
Lets not talk about No Deal No Scam DM.



That was simple calculation based on some exp on line.



Alot more needs to be done . I believe that will only happen once a good number of order is placed.



Are you talking about Tejas mK2 ?
what is the relevance of Tejas Mk1 investment?



I have said it earlier also post 4661 to you only.I have a different take on this statement.


That's not gonna happen ..... Just like the way we said earlier Rafale deal will not be done at the increased cost and it did not ....

IAF says that its squadron strength will deplete to 25 soon.

And only cost effective replacement to shore up in numbers is tejas mk1. radome, refuelling probe are subsystems tht has nothing to do with basic fighter design that can be upgraded later.

So without them tejas mk1 has demoed R-73s LGB and , the delay in derby is attributed to non delivery from israel, which too has nothing to do with basic aerodynamic. Any way astra mk1 is coming up nicely. So no need to worry on BVR front at all.

Since R-73 has validated ar to air radar mode, why is IAf fighting shy of ordering another 40 more tejas mk1, which will let HAL and its vendors to shore up their investment in production line?

Why no journo is raising this point?

DM does not seems to have full control of ministry.

case in point he kept saying that su-30 MKI can be plan B for MMRCA mishap.

but within the last couple of months he was over ruled and modi sprang the rafale deal in total secrecy.

Now DM is inventing another medium light fighter category between tejas nad rafale which is unheard of in any airforce.

Are the french , germans and british going to follow our DM's route and buy gripen to create and fill a new slot just below typhoon and rafale?

Does DM--fadnavis duo intend to turn IAF into flying circus of all fighters from the world?

Gripen will cost close to thrice tejas price. SO is there any justification to buy it over tejas mk2 for any marginal performance improvement.

there is news that gripen E has already crossed 8 tons in empty weight(because it is a detailed redesign with new drag inducing , weight inducing fairings to cater for extra fuel load ,opposed to the aim of drag reduction and simple fuselage plug for tejas mk2 ) which reduces its TWR to the same level as that of tejas mk1!!!!

Is that under powered or overpowered for IAF?

 

[ersakthivel]

Light Combat Aircraft: Need for course correction I | StratPost

Though handicapped by underpowered engines, the HF-24 acquitted itself well in the strike role in the 1971 Indo-Pak war.

The HF-24 was, in its time, a brilliant design and a state-of-the-art aircraft. The programme met an untimely demise in 1982 due to the short-sightedness of the User, Government and the Industry.

The User's leadership displayed singular lack of foresight and national perspective when it decided to phase out the aircraft in 1982, a mere 15 years later. The political leadership and the bureaucracy displayed ignorance and strategic blindness during the course of the HF-24's development and operational life. Decisions on engine development with foreign collaboration were shelved under the pretext of being too expensive, when the cost involved was a mere Rs 5 crores.

The industry failed to follow a strategy of developing improved derivatives in order to sustain the huge leap achieved with the help of Dr Kurt Tank's team.

The net result was withering away of precious talent. The entire 1970s was a lost decade.

HAL shifted its focus to license production of MiG-21s and when the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) decision was taken in 1985, HAL's design capability was at an all time low. It lost the control of the design process and management to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which created the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) to manage the LCA programme.

Strangely the same fate would befall in indian aerospace sector if GOi follows the advice of the author of this piece.

 

[Pulkit]

IAF says that its squadron strength will deplete to 25 soon.

Thats never gonna happen. This is the worst case scenario. Imagining that there is not gonna be single induction in next 10 years is foolish.
Lets see close to 200 a/c will be retired in next ten years ... we have close to 70 SU MKI and 40 Tejas MK1 already on order that will substitute half and thinking that nothing else will be there is notfair.(I do not like Rafale but 36 rafale are also there)

And only cost effective replacement to shore up in numbers is tejas mk1. radome, refuelling probe are subsystems tht has nothing to do with basic fighter design that can be upgraded later.

Some will not like this but this is what i want.

Keep Tejas mK1 assembly line running producing 12-15 per year till MK2 enters mass production and then with 2 assembly lines atleast 270 must be inducted

So without them tejas mk1 has demoed R-73s LGB and , the delay in derby is attributed to non delivery from israel, which too has nothing to do with basic aerodynamic. Any way astra mk1 is coming up nicely. So no need to worry on BVR front at all.

Since R-73 has validated ar to air radar mode, why is IAf fighting shy of ordering another 40 more tejas mk1, which will let HAL and its vendors to shore up their investment in production line?

Why no journo is raising this point?

Kannada media has been more active than the nationalised media

DM does not seems to have full control of ministry.

case in point he kept saying that su-30 MKI can be plan B for MMRCA mishap.

but within the last couple of months he was over ruled and modi sprang the rafale deal in total secrecy.

This was a face saving done to pay for the ill doing of previous govt ... Scrapping entire deal wud have been disasterous

Now DM is inventing another medium light fighter category between tejas nad rafale which is unheard of in any airforce.

I have already stated my view on this

Are the french , germans and british going to follow our DM's route and buy gripen to create and fill a new slot just below typhoon and rafale?

Does DM--fadnavis duo intend to turn IAF into flying circus of all fighters from the world?

That was actually a great move politically

Gripen will cost close to thrice tejas price. SO is there any justification to buy it over tejas mk2 for any marginal performance improvement.

G will only come in light if Tejas MK2 is delayed so we need ADA and IAF to be tamed

there is news that gripen E has already crossed 8 tons in empty weight(because it is a detailed redesign with new drag inducing , weight inducing fairings to cater for extra fuel load ,opposed to the aim of drag reduction and simple fuselage plug for tejas mk2 ) which reduces its TWR to the same level as that of tejas mk1!!!!

Is that under powered or overpowered for IAF?

I do not trust the top elite of IAF IA

Light Combat Aircraft: Need for course correction I | StratPost



Strangely the same fate would befall in indian aerospace sector if GOi follows the advice of the author of this piece.

thats not gonna happen.
we must raise our voice .
is there a better way?

 

[Screambowl]

Thats never gonna happen. This is the worst case scenario. Imagining that there is not gonna be single induction in next 10 years is foolish.
Lets see close to 200 a/c will be retired in next ten years ... we have close to 70 SU MKI and 40 Tejas MK1 already on order that will substitute half and thinking that nothing else will be there is notfair.(I do not like Rafale but 36 rafale are also there) Some will not like this but this is what i want.

Keep Tejas mK1 assembly line running producing 12-15 per year till MK2 enters mass production and then with 2 assembly lines atleast 270 must be inducted Kannada media has been more active than the nationalised media This was a face saving done to pay for the ill doing of previous govt ... Scrapping entire deal wud have been disasterous I have already stated my view on thisThat was actually a great move politically
G will only come in light if Tejas MK2 is delayed so we need ADA and IAF to be

Nope, now it's high time to produce MKII because Pakistan is getting 110 Jf-17s from china. And Pakistan can assemble 20-30 units per year. So we need to be fast.

 

[Pulkit]

Nope, now it's high time to produce MKII because Pakistan is getting 110 Jf-17s from china. And Pakistan can assemble 20-30 units per year. So we need to be fast.

Thats a huge "NOPE" may i know wat for was it?

I m well aware of the Pak China deal.

 

[Screambowl]

Thats a huge "NOPE" may i know wat for was it?

I m well aware of the Pak China deal.

Keeping both Pak and China as rivals we are very slow in aircraft procurement. MK1 can be a good trainer but we need more numbers of combat ready aircrafts before Pakis get those all 110. And their procurement time is faster than ours. 50 in three years and due to this Modi demanded 37 Rafales in fly away condition from France. We cannot deploy Su-mki for every combat sector.

 

[Pulkit]

Nope, now it's high time to produce MKII because Pakistan is getting 110 Jf-17s from china. And Pakistan can assemble 20-30 units per year. So we need to be fast.

Tejas mkII is still 3 years away by then the order of Tejas MK1 will be completed.

Keeping both Pak and China as rivals we are very slow in aircraft procurement. MK1 can be a good trainer but we need more numbers of combat ready aircrafts before Pakis get those all 110. And their procurement time is faster than ours. 50 in three years and due to this Modi demanded 37 Rafales in fly away condition from France. We cannot deploy Su-mki for every combat sector.

Yes numbers do matter .
But numbers are not everything .
One needs good quality aircraft in good numbers to be inducted.

 

[Screambowl]

Tejas mkII is still 3 years away by then the order of Tejas MK1 will be completed.




Yes numbers do matter .
But numbers are not everything .
One needs good quality aircraft in good numbers to be inducted.

MK1 is just a technology demonstrator and more close to trainer.

I think, when we are dealing with nuclear power , we need to have numbers too. More over, to be honest, we can not really debate without seeing the performance of these aircrafts in actual combat zone. Both use european/Israeli avionics some of which china has copied.

 

[Pulkit]

MK1 is just a technology demonstrator and more close to trainer.

I beg to differ but thats not true.
You cannot call a aircraft compared to Mirage upgraded ,even called better than it by many

I think, when we are dealing with nuclear power , we need to have numbers too. More over, to be honest, we can not really debate without seeing the performance of these aircrafts in actual combat zone. Both use european/Israeli avionics some of which china has copied.

If you read this thread atleast you will get all your answers.

 

[sgarg]

@ersakhtivel, How many Tejas fighters HAL has built already? You keep on repeating 40 order. You forget that all aircrafts (and not only SP series) are paid by MOD. When HAL builds a TD or LSP, that is not built for free. Even the number of mark-1 order is 46 including navy. Plus the prototypes that still have to be built for both mark-1 and mark-2, the orders stand in excess of 55. As for pricing, this is an issue between mod and hal. Let mod bring out competitive bidding for production line of Tejas. That should have been the correct way. Why award this project or any project to HAL by default?

 

[sgarg]

I repeat that the biggest misfortune of tejas is HAL. HAL is only interested in screw driver work. If a private company was involved from the start, this project would have succeeded with few squadrons flying already.