ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[ersakthivel]

Pulkit, HAL has to submit projected production figures to MOD. For LCA, 2 were projected in 14-15 and 6 in 15-16.
If HAL actually delivers 1 in 14-15 and 4 in 15-16; that is a slippage of 3 units already. The delays add up. The issue is when IAF will be able to form the first squadron?
Inability to deliver the aircraft will ultimately play against HAL. HAL needs to focus all its resources on this project and ensure ramp up to 16 as MOD is asking.

China will deliver 50 JF-17 to Pakistan in less than three years.

This kind of slow rate does not bode well for LCA Tejas program.

read carefully. those 4 tejas are for this year quota, from march 2015 to march 2016 not till december 2016 as you are saying.

Ask PAF to give just 40 JF-17 order and you will see a lower rate of delivery.PAF has given solid order for 150 JF-17 with out any IOC , FOC or any clarification on radar and missiles.



eventhough tejas mk1 is much better than JF-17, IAF has given only 40 order. And as the report indicates IAF is specifying newer and stricter standards for these tejas mk1s, which is the reason for review .

 

[Pulkit]

Pulkit, HAL has to submit projected production figures to MOD. For LCA, 2 were projected in 14-15 and 6 in 15-16.
If HAL actually delivers 1 in 14-15 and 4 in 15-16; that is a slippage of 3 units already. The delays add up. The issue is when IAF will be able to form the first squadron?
Inability to deliver the aircraft will ultimately play against HAL. HAL needs to focus all its resources on this project and ensure ramp up to 16 as MOD is asking.

China will deliver 50 JF-17 to Pakistan in less than three years.

This kind of slow rate does not bode well for LCA Tejas program.

The deadlines you are stating are old ones before the delay for IOC2 happened.
Once the IOC2 was attained they were supposed to deliver 6 in first year and 12-16 from next year .

So if HAL sticks to the commitment then 20 tejas MK1 of IOC2 can be delivered by 2017(starting).
Then there will be again issue of FOC ... If IF in case FOC is not met then again there will be a delay ... whose responsible ./....



Read my entire posts before stating or commenting ...

 

[ersakthivel]

There was a delay in IOC2 which did effect the delivery schedule .
They were supposed to give 6 in first year if the old dead line had been kept.


Once the IOC2 was snatched/grabbed/taken no one was expecting more than 3 aircrafts delivered in this year.

Simple question , how much the MOD has permitted HAL to invest in tejas production line, with what kind of tech?

I have told you many times before. HAL is under the direct control of MOD. It can't take major financial decisions without MOD's approval.

With just 40 ordered , if you are HAL MOD how many crores will you invest in tejas production line to justify non existent profit from those 40 order numbers?

Think about it before accusing HAL of slow production rate.

I am not defending HAL here.

Why is IAF fighting shy of giving a total of 80 tejas mk1 order which will lead to motivation on MOD and HAl's part to focus on increasing tejas mk1 production?

If HAL is saying that they are gonna give 4 more that means total of 5 this year then it is a pretty decent number.


Taking your view into account ... Yes ADA should accelerate there work on Tejas MK2 AND HAL shud focus to find ways to increase production.

Ex- DM Anothony has asked ADA to concentrate on getting IOC , FOC for tejas mk1 first before thinking about mk2.

As per my knowledge the difference in initiation of production of A/C in 4 months in case of tejas..


That means if Tejas 1 is started in month 1 then Tejas 2 will be started only by month 5.

ANy source for these claims?

They need to bring this gap down to one month and that will come only with more production.

+

HAL is also looking to outsource few parts of Tejas to local industry which will also support and inc production rate....

HAL has already given orders to TATA advanced materials for composite parts of tejas.

It will be early to say efforts of present DM worked but need to give him some credit for showing the right path..

We are yet to see a crystal clear statement from DM's part regarding how much investment in money and menpower were made in tejas line in HAL and when?

Right now he is busy inventing a slot for another single engined fighter (gripen) between rafale and tejas mk2!!!,gripen will which will cost close to rafale itself, which is even more mystifying.

Actually if gripen is bought in place of those cancelled 126 MMRCA birds, it means our DM is reversing IAF's shortlist of rafale and typhoon, with no big cost saving at all.

 

[sgarg]

read carefully. those 4 tejas are for this year quota, from march 2015 to march 2016 not till december 2016 as you are saying.

Ask PAF to give just 40 JF-17 order and you will see a lower rate of delivery.PAF has given solid order for 150 JF-17 with out any IOC , FOC or any clarification on radar and missiles.
eventhough tejas mk1 is much better than JF-17, IAF has given only 40 order. And as the report indicates IAF is specifying newer and stricter standards for these tejas mk1s, which is the reason for review .

The financial year in India runs from April to March. When I say 14-15, it means April 14 to March 15. Your ignorance about financial years tells me you are NOT a government type. This makes any information from you a bit suspect.

The IAF order of 40 does not mean that 40 has to be delivered in 40 years. There are MOD directives and HAL projections. HAL is expected to meet its numbers.
The orders are in the hands of MOD and more orders can be given anytime.

 

[Zebra]

We are yet to see a crystal clear statement from DM's part regarding how much investment in money and menpower were made in tejas line in HAL and when?

Right now he is busy inventing a slot for another single engined fighter (gripen) between rafale and tejas mk2!!!,gripen will which will cost close to rafale itself, which is even more mystifying.

Actually if gripen is bought in place of those cancelled 126 MMRCA birds, it means our DM is reversing IAF's shortlist of rafale and typhoon, with no big cost saving at all.

First, see each of HAL photos about making of Tejas.

I wonder how many men are there on shop floor just watching the work get done...!

How HAL can afford to pay these much guys for just watching the job.

And still you need more men specially for Tejas line.

Then god must save Indian PSUs.

Second, what is the price of each Gripen E (FAW cost) offered in MRCA?

 

[smestarz]

How would you compare F 16 latest block to Tejas Mk 2?

Whats wrong ? Both are single engine planes and in a way powered by same engine, they both are MRCA only the conceptual design is different.
For example is it wrong to compare F-15 with Su-30MKI?

 

[sgarg]

We are yet to see a crystal clear statement from DM's part regarding how much investment in money and menpower were made in tejas line in HAL and when?
Right now he is busy inventing a slot for another single engined fighter (gripen) between rafale and tejas mk2!!!,gripen will which will cost close to rafale itself, which is even more mystifying.
Actually if gripen is bought in place of those cancelled 126 MMRCA birds, it means our DM is reversing IAF's shortlist of rafale and typhoon, with no big cost saving at all.

If HAL is unable to build Tejas, then only options left is government can bring in a private sector player. If HAL opposes a private player (as the case is perhaps) then next option is to bring in a foreign product to be built by a private player. Of course the correct approach should have been to fire all the blockheads in HAL and other places who oppose government line. But unfortunately we have "democracy" so GOI has no option but to adopt the methods which it can.

The greater issue is to meet IAF numbers. HAL has been sleeping on the wheel. When was IOC order given to HAL?? HAL had plenty of time to prepare itself for series production, which it has wasted practically.

 

[smestarz]

Pulkit, HAL has to submit projected production figures to MOD. For LCA, 2 were projected in 14-15 and 6 in 15-16.
If HAL actually delivers 1 in 14-15 and 4 in 15-16; that is a slippage of 3 units already. The delays add up. The issue is when IAF will be able to form the first squadron?
Inability to deliver the aircraft will ultimately play against HAL. HAL needs to focus all its resources on this project and ensure ramp up to 16 as MOD is asking.

China will deliver 50 JF-17 to Pakistan in less than three years.

This kind of slow rate does not bode well for LCA Tejas program.

For producing Tejas, HAL may have to import many equipment specially the ones for Carbon fibre. the process that HAL is doing is manual and that is ok for LSP because there are no "firm" orders from IAF and there was a chance that those orders could just be cancelled. since now the Navy orders are there, HAL will soon be bringing machines that can handle the making of carbon fibres automatically. They are doing this way in the West and by doing this they would be able to reduce the time of production and also reduce the cost of production (with initial high cost of production due to buying of this machine)

Also adding of another line in another area is possible that can double the rate of production..

 

[ersakthivel]

If HAL is unable to build Tejas, then only options left is government can bring in a private sector player. If HAL opposes a private player (as the case is perhaps) then next option is to bring in a foreign product to be built by a private player. Of course the correct approach should have been to fire all the blockheads in HAL and other places who oppose government line. But unfortunately we have "democracy" so GOI has no option but to adopt the methods which it can.

The greater issue is to meet IAF numbers. HAL has been sleeping on the wheel. When was IOC order given to HAL?? HAL had plenty of time to prepare itself for series production, which it has wasted practically.

Tejas is no bingo mad angle chip.

Even now after being the world's largest two wheeler market, other than Honda and yamaha not a single two wheeler makers of indian origin couldn't introduce a monosuspension bike till a few years back.

name single indian private sector firm which is a world leader in manufacturing tech based on its own R&D.

And just 40 orders for tejas mk1 wont even interest the Bingo mad angle chip makers to invest in tejas production line, which you fail to acknowledge repeatedly!!!

With talk of another light weight fighter by parrikar between tejas and rafale, which private sector player will put his hard earned money in second tejas production line.

It is all a carefully scripted drama.

IAF with eye on conserving money for MMRCA , is revising tejas mk1 goal post repeatedly , and giving just 40 tejas mk1 orders, which would simply stall thousands of crores of investments needed into tejas modern production line, with a strict rider that tejas mk1 is not we want but mk2.

if that is the case ADA should have scraped tejas mk1 in 2009 itself and should have started work on tejas mk2 straight away.

because what is the point of spending skilled man power and financial resources for a fighter that is going to be made in just 40 units?

But our ex Dm Antony has asked ADA to post pone tejas mk2 and work on tejas mk1 FOC and IOC.

So ADA soldiers on for years on a farce called 40 tejas mk1 order for years, while Dassault has walked away with billions of dollars of worth rafale orders!!!

now G people are promising something to fadnavis , which is putting tejas mk2 future into jeopardy.

All these things are aimed at another round of imports with fake TOT with many guys making plenty of millions in between.

The foundation for these guys to make those million lies in just 40 order for tejas mk1, which ensures it is never going to be produced at a scale which should matter. IAF will fight it tooth and nail if asked to give 80 tejas mk1 orders once FOC is complete.

All these depleting squadron strength fake cry by many IAF higher offs and import lobby jounos is to dupe the lay man.

because if replacing mig-21 is the real concern they can just away order 80 tejas which will surely give impetus for investment of the required money needed.

HAL is producing more su-30 MKIs than Dassault does on rafale count every year.

So it is not as if HAL doesn't know how to produce fighter planes!!!

it is all a delicate game played by ex-UPA DM and top tier IAF guys who were all anointed by the UPA regime. Keep chanting tejas mk1 is not the plane we want and mk2 is what we need to stll immediate full phased induction of tejas with thousands if crores of investment into HAL production line.

 

[smestarz]

We are yet to see a crystal clear statement from DM's part regarding how much investment in money and menpower were made in tejas line in HAL and when?

Right now he is busy inventing a slot for another single engined fighter (gripen) between rafale and tejas mk2!!!,gripen will which will cost close to rafale itself, which is even more mystifying.

Actually if gripen is bought in place of those cancelled 126 MMRCA birds, it means our DM is reversing IAF's shortlist of rafale and typhoon, with no big cost saving at all.

But that could also be a good news, it means that it has been convyed to DM that Rafale will not be the same price as it was given in RFP..Galti se mistake ho gaya .

Egypt paid almost US$ 200 M per Rafale !!
If you remember a few weeks before PM went to France, Eric Trappier was on record saying that Rafales cost has not increased and they can give to India at same price (assuming the F3 version and at US$ 80 million a plane, considering 10 Billion dollars and 126 planes) The idea was to inflate the price once the deal is signed (very similar to what happened with INS Vikramaditya when it went from $ 400 Mn to US$ 2.5 Bn

Now that the MMRCA RFP is in coma, and India has asked France to offer 36 Rafales on G2G basis same version as offered by Dassault and same price was expected. Now all of us know that the prices of planes has gone up, and there is very rare chance that Dassault can give plane to India at US$ 80 Mn when it sold to Egypt at US$ 200 M, this would actually start rumours of Scam and then I guess BJP loses power in 2019

Now the best way to do is give it a closure and so there is face saving gesture to France and Dassault,. If Dassault can keep up the words that it said less than a month ago, then there is contract for 36 Rafales and there might be better prospects for Rafale in India.

SAAB sees a chance in India due to French debacle, further SAAB is eager to start its line in Maharashtra and that too at its own cost. Now due to RFP Dassault was going to put the line in India and We were going to pay for putting the line too, hence dassault was going to make money on planes, on TOT for making fuselage and also for selling lines and various parts to India, so in a way we were going to pay TWICE for Rafale if going by that MMRCA RFP.

Gripen is a good plane, but its very similar to Tejas, so what is the use of buying it and that too at 3-4 times the cost of Tejas. I think the DM is jus speculating. They want to ensure the Make in India initiative but they should understand that in terms of politics, what actually helped BJP to victory is the youth in the cities, these youth are well read and do understand what is happening more than what happened during Bofors. BJP did win in major cities and if there is feeling of a Scam, the area where they win, they can lose too.

Maybe the DM wants to give closure to MMRCA by getting negative response from France/Dassault (that they cannot give price as stated before and now the prices are US$ 200 mn a plane) this will ensure a closure for the MMRCA topic. And then govt can then focus on the other projects at hand like Offer of 36 PAKFA from Russia,

Remember, after another 2 months PM will be visiting Russia and people expect announcement of defence deals

 

[ersakthivel]

First, see each of HAL photos about making of Tejas.

I wonder how many men are there on shop floor just watching the work get done...!

How HAL can afford to pay these much guys for just watching the job.

And still you need more men specially for Tejas line.

Then god must save Indian PSUs.

Second, what is the price of each Gripen E (FAW cost) offered in MRCA?

Those are from LSP lines mate.

Why dont you see Su-30 MKI production line of HAL where more number of fighters are turned out?

because 100s of orders for su-30 MKi enables that kind of investment into production line, which is stalled by just 40 order numbers for tejas mk1.

The above is the su-30 MKI production line. please notice the difference.

Above is the new tejas production line.

One below looks like russian flanker production line,

the number of orders determine the scale and tech of production line. Isn't it?

Gripen will cost at leas three time that of tejas mk2. that is a guarantee, if you take into account total life cycle and upgrade cost.

 

[smestarz]

First, see each of HAL photos about making of Tejas.

I wonder how many men are there on shop floor just watching the work get done...!

How HAL can afford to pay these much guys for just watching the job.

And still you need more men specially for Tejas line.

Then god must save Indian PSUs.

Second, what is the price of each Gripen E (FAW cost) offered in MRCA?

I understand the photos of HAL production for Tejas is that of making planes individually. rather as per that almost each plane will be unique. though it has the same parts. The carbon fibres of the planes are made manually. When the series production starts, more machines will be used . There would be machines to make the Carbon fibres faster and that will speed up the production and lower the cost of production.
When the photos were taken, HAL was not busy with big nos that all the staff are busy.. If you go by that logic then I guess we have to just have 10% of GOI staff at work as rest are "busy" with something else, why else the files are piling up? Why are the court cases pending for more than 20 years?

 

[tejas warrior]

anyone having latest updates on FOC ? are we progressing well ?
as per Saurav Jha FOC was waiting for In-flight Refueling Probe & Quartz nose cone radome, both of which are being procured from UK's Cobham.

Have we already received them and flight testing started ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It has moved to the next year ..

 

[tejas warrior]

It has moved to the next year ..

Do you mean FOC ?

ADA/HAL was saying they will complete it by 2015 at any cost..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

My bad, It is Dec 2015 ..

Do you mean FOC ?

ADA/HAL was saying they will complete it by 2015 at any cost..

============

Their is a dedicated thread for comparison purpose > http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...es/48198-lca-tejas-mk-2-vs-f-16-blk-60-a.html

How would you compare F 16 latest block to Tejas Mk 2?

 

[sgarg]

@ersakthivel, there is a fear that HAL is intentionally delaying LCA production. There may be n number of factors behind it, but that is for sleuths like you.

Your argument about investment simply does not cut it. The government is already footing the bill for the entire development program. It makes no sense for MOD to foot the bill for installing basic machinery at HAL. I asked you a point blank question - what is it that HAL wants to do? If HAL sets itself a target of building x fighters per year and y trainers per year, it would need plant and machinery for that for sure. Why is waiting for "orders" from MOD. It should rather ask the Government the permission to export. The facts are not very good for HAL. Its revenues are stagnating and its programs are mired in problems. We are hoping change of CMD fixes at least some of the problems.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

@ersakthivel, there is a fear that HAL is intentionally delaying LCA production. There may be n number of factors behind it, but that is for sleuths like you.

Your argument about investment simply does not cut it. The government is already footing the bill for the entire development program. It makes no sense for MOD to foot the bill for installing basic machinery at HAL. I asked you a point blank question - what is it that HAL wants to do? If HAL sets itself a target of building x fighters per year and y trainers per year, it would need plant and machinery for that for sure. Why is waiting for "orders" from MOD. It should rather ask the Government the permission to export. The facts are not very good for HAL. Its revenues are stagnating and its programs are mired in problems. We are hoping change of CMD fixes at least some of the problems.

LCA is not owned by HAL it is owned by DRDO through ADA

even if HAL was the owner of IPR of LCA it needs govt permission for exports

then

all aircraft Helos need production line

while the Shed Land & some machinary can be multi used - there are specific systems which cant be multi used but aircraft specific

 

[Pulkit]

Simple question , how much the MOD has permitted HAL to invest in tejas production line, with what kind of tech?

MOD has been restriction investment on Tejas Assembly line and the tech is not advanced in comparison to the world tech.

I have told you many times before. HAL is under the direct control of MOD. It can't take major financial decisions without MOD's approval.

I know this , where did i went against what you just said ... kindly elaborate .

With just 40 ordered , if you are HAL MOD how many crores will you invest in tejas production line to justify non existent profit from those 40 order numbers?

I have also said many times the order placed is to low to for a good production rate i.e. setting up of good production line .

Think about it before accusing HAL of slow production rate.

I think you have not read my posts read them again .
post 4683 4666 specially 4668 4673 4674

I am not defending HAL here.

Even I m not defensing HAL

Why is IAF fighting shy of giving a total of 80 tejas mk1 order which will lead to motivation on MOD and HAl's part to focus on increasing tejas mk1 production?

I have been asking this question on this forum and others for a long long time.

Ex- DM Anothony has asked ADA to concentrate on getting IOC , FOC for tejas mk1 first before thinking about mk2.

Time have changed .
Today DM is not like the old one ....
Lets not talk about No Deal No Scam DM.

ANy source for these claims?

That was simple calculation based on some exp on line.

HAL has already given orders to TATA advanced materials for composite parts of tejas.

Alot more needs to be done . I believe that will only happen once a good number of order is placed.

We are yet to see a crystal clear statement from DM's part regarding how much investment in money and menpower were made in tejas line in HAL and when?

Are you talking about Tejas mK2 ?
what is the relevance of Tejas Mk1 investment?

Right now he is busy inventing a slot for another single engined fighter (gripen) between rafale and tejas mk2!!!,gripen will which will cost close to rafale itself, which is even more mystifying.

I have said it earlier also post 4661 to you only.I have a different take on this statement.

Actually if gripen is bought in place of those cancelled 126 MMRCA birds, it means our DM is reversing IAF's shortlist of rafale and typhoon, with no big cost saving at all.

That's not gonna happen ..... Just like the way we said earlier Rafale deal will not be done at the increased cost and it did not ....

 

[sob]

@ersakthivel, there is a fear that HAL is intentionally delaying LCA production. There may be n number of factors behind it, but that is for sleuths like you.

Your argument about investment simply does not cut it. The government is already footing the bill for the entire development program. It makes no sense for MOD to foot the bill for installing basic machinery at HAL. I asked you a point blank question - what is it that HAL wants to do? If HAL sets itself a target of building x fighters per year and y trainers per year, it would need plant and machinery for that for sure. Why is waiting for "orders" from MOD. It should rather ask the Government the permission to export. The facts are not very good for HAL. Its revenues are stagnating and its programs are mired in problems. We are hoping change of CMD fixes at least some of the problems.

No it is not so simple. HAL has dozens of foreign vendors for LCA, and they will not start production till they get firm order backed by advance payment or Letter of Credit. And HAL will not commit till they get the Green signal from all the agencies involved.

And components for Aerospace applications are not kept in stock . The lead time can easily be between 6 months to a year also in some cases.