ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[tejas warrior]

The only hurdle in this can be ......

Commitment of IAF and HAL......

Rest everything if goes per plan this is very much achievable......

and commitment of Modi & manohar parrikar.

I believe these 2 guyz hv power to force commitment from HAL & IAF.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The person who did it, Possible reading a lot of other forum`s posts by very professional posters, The same topic is raised here as well but quickly shown the existing solution ..

Yeah even my reaction was WTF after reading that article.

 

[Pulkit]

and commitment of Modi & manohar parrikar.

I believe these 2 guyz hv power to force commitment from HAL & IAF.

They cannot do that .
In our nation defense forces are not under direct control of judiciary/govt.

Forces are dependent on civilian govt for funds and not for the choice of weapon they want.

Success of Tejas is not possible if they them selves do not realise it.

Modi or Parrikar can suggest guide and till some extent make them choose but they cannot make them accept it .

IAF has played it.

They placed Tejas MK1 40 on order as a filler till Tejas MK2 is not ready though Tejas mK1 met there requirement still they did....


Tejas MK2 can be delivered on time if Modi and Parrikar forces are sleepy ADA DRDO HAL.

HAL shud be tamed as they are the ones giving reasons to IAF to play these tricks.

ADA and DRDO shud get there things in order before it is too late and ppl start thinking of shutting them down.

 

[Pulkit]

The person who did it, Possible reading a lot of other forum`s posts by very professional posters, The same topic is raised here as well but quickly shown the existing solution ..

The author quoted no sources , no facts , no calculations nothing.....
If these people are able to post there articles I think I will even get a offer to write a Book.....

 

[archie]

They cannot do that .
In our nation defense forces are not under direct control of judiciary/govt.

Forces are dependent on civilian govt for funds and not for the choice of weapon they want.

Really They can resist but not deny .. Govt can simply cut the funds given and purchase the product and gift it to Armed forces. Army, Airforce or navy is an Independent institution of the Govt of India.

Doing that will cause bad blood on both sides though.. Niether side pushes that much anyway..

 

[sgarg]

and commitment of Modi & manohar parrikar.

I believe these 2 guyz hv power to force commitment from HAL & IAF.

The question is why Parikkar will move all the way against the wishes of IAF? More likely Parikkar will narrow the ground between IAF and ADA by pushing both to compromise. The minister is already pushing HAL to deliver Tejas numbers. I have fears though that there are some people in HAL who are not keen on Tejas.

 

[sgarg]

@ersakthivel, I believe that IAF no longer wants Mig-21 replacement. The needs have changed. There are AWACS with both adversaries. The low level advantage is gone. BVR capability has become common place. Now is the time for brute force - big radar, long range weapons etc.

This is the reason Tejas is being souped up with imported nose, so that its radar has sufficient range to direct BVR missile like Astra.

I am not a technical expert like you, but I have heard there are some issues with acceleration which allows a plane to outrun the other in a dog-fight.

 

[Pulkit]

Really They can resist but not deny .. Govt can simply cut the funds given and purchase the product and gift it to Armed forces. Army, Airforce or navy is an Independent institution of the Govt of India.

Doing that will cause bad blood on both sides though.. Niether side pushes that much anyway..

Not getting your point.

Gift cannot be in huge numbers ... a limited numbers can be pushed down but not in the numbers required.

 

[Pulkit]

@ersakthivel, I believe that IAF no longer wants Mig-21 replacement. The needs have changed. There are AWACS with both adversaries. The low level advantage is gone. BVR capability has become common place. Now is the time for brute force - big radar, long range weapons etc.

This is the reason Tejas is being souped up with imported nose, so that its radar has sufficient range to direct BVR missile like Astra.

I am not a technical expert like you, but I have heard there are some issues with acceleration which allows a plane to outrun the other in a dog-fight.

Its not about Mig21... every aircraft has its own role.
Rafale is a medium aircraft but the work horse of our airforce has always been light aircraft.
You need to have a specific number of aircraft ...

If what you are saying is the case..


Why do not we have all Su30 MKI with brahmos????

 

[archie]

Not getting your point.

Gift cannot be in huge numbers ... a limited numbers can be pushed down but not in the numbers required.

MOD is govt Controlled , CCS is Gov Controlled .. Tactics and strategy on how to usilise resources is Not interfeared with .. what Resources (Aircraft ships which are capital items) to be given can be Done Like how the sanctioned strength is done. Say parliment passes no Import law.. Nothing doing by any genral .Meaning Military is under control of the Govt on the overall level and finer details are the contol of the Institution

Though thay have the power no Govt will excersice that to that extent they ill always talk and take a firm step and no misunderstading should be allowed to grow either extremes are bad for our nation.

 

[tejas warrior]

We need something like this from IAF.

See.. how IN works. Proud of you.
"It has been decided that after P75 I, all future submarines will be of our own design and will be made in India. The government has been very clear on this and we have already begun the work, even though the requirement is of the future," Navy's Controller of Warship Production and Acquisition Vice Admiral AV Subhedar confirmed to ET.

Read more at:
Rs 60,000-cr P75 I will be last order from abroad; Navy starts work on futuristic design - The Economic Times

 

[Pulkit]

MOD is govt Controlled , CCS is Gov Controlled .. Tactics and strategy on how to usilise resources is Not interfeared with .. what Resources (Aircraft ships which are capital items) to be given can be Done Like how the sanctioned strength is done. Say parliment passes no Import law.. Nothing doing by any genral .Meaning Military is under control of the Govt on the overall level and finer details are the contol of the Institution

Though thay have the power no Govt will excersice that to that extent they ill always talk and take a firm step and no misunderstading should be allowed to grow either extremes are bad for our nation.

This is till some extent true ....
No import law cannot be passed as we do not make everything.
+
no import will make products more costly.

But what govt is doing is that if we have something home made then we must not import it....

Even then IAF and other forces have played a trick .... They never let things to get cleared as they are they so called experts who decide if the product is ready or not.

So you can see what you are saying is not possible.

 

[archie]

Even then IAF and other forces have played a trick .... They never let things to get cleared as they are they so called experts who decide if the product is ready or not.

So you can see what you are saying is not possible.

Thats a lack of political will and rampant corruption by politicians in the deals.. The current DM calling GSQR out of fantacy books is something better than whats been happening till now. I was just saying ideal Vs Practical my last sentence was probably practical but most of that interaction is secret for good reasons

 

[Pulkit]

Thats a lack of political will and rampant corruption by politicians in the deals.. The current DM calling GSQR out of fantacy books is something better than whats been happening till now. I was just saying ideal Vs Practical my last sentence was probably practical but most of that interaction is secret for good reasons

true .... and what I m saying is .... defense forces will always find a way they always do to trick the nation.

 

[archie]

true .... and what I m saying is .... defense forces will always find a way they always do to trick the nation.

I am hoping Current DM is better than any DM in the history of the country .. Its high time we need it

 

[tejas warrior]

Can someone tell about delay in SP-2.. what went wrong ?

Can HAL Finally Get Its Act Together for Tejas Push | idrw.org

 

[Pulkit]

Can someone tell about delay in SP-2.. what went wrong ?

Can HAL Finally Get Its Act Together for Tejas Push | idrw.org

Tweeted same to our DM..

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p><a href="https://twitter.com/manoharparrikar">@manoharparrikar</a> What is causing delay in delivery of Tejas to IAF? Why is <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/HAL?src=hash">#HAL</a> unable to stick to delivery plan?</p>&mdash; PULKIT BAHL (@PULKITBAHL) <a href="https://twitter.com/PULKITBAHL/status/591888289021308929">April 25, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

https://twitter.com/PULKITBAHL/status/591888289021308929

Hope he replies...

 

[Pulkit]

double post..

some one please tell how to post tweet

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel, I believe that IAF no longer wants Mig-21 replacement. The needs have changed. There are AWACS with both adversaries. The low level advantage is gone. BVR capability has become common place. Now is the time for brute force - big radar, long range weapons etc.

This is the reason Tejas is being souped up with imported nose, so that its radar has sufficient range to direct BVR missile like Astra.

I am not a technical expert like you, but I have heard there are some issues with acceleration which allows a plane to outrun the other in a dog-fight.

The issue is simply, G lobby is trying to influence Parrikar through Fadnavis with make G in Nagpur slogan.

This is the first time in the operational history of IAF that a defence minister suddenly "discovers" a need for fighter that is between rafale and tejas!!!!

It is stupid to invent new categories using the figleaf of depleting squadron strength of IAF. First retired IAF higher ups were used by MMRCA lobby to spread the "truth" that with sudden urge to bomb deep into tibet, single engined light fighters are obsolete. Now our DM is loose phrasing a need for another mid tier in IAF between rafale and tejas, where no other fighter other than gripen E has a presence.

So if this need fructifies it is going to be another Goody-Goody government to government deal with a single minded intent to buy gripen E, whose weight has gone above 8 tons!!!

All the while most of the DDM , jour"analists' and IAf retired chair marshaks were bemoaning the under powered tejas!!! How can they now plump for gripen E which will definitely more underpowered than tejas mk2. gripen C is underpowered compared to tejas mk1, In the same way gripen E is underpowered compared to tejas mk2, whose redesign is minimal 0.5 meter fuselage plug, opposed to very detailed redesign of griepen E which has included drag induced fairings to carry extra fuel to compete with rafale and typhoon.

There is no single airforce in the world that operates two types of extremely expensive 4.5th gen fighters such as gripen E and rafale in large number at break your back pricing in high 200 plus numbers(because if gripen is to make in maharastra it will need atleast 150 plus orders, that means parrikar -fadnavis duo is either closing down tejas mk2 program or creating their own make in india all 4.5 the gen IAF , that will be so obsolete 15 years down the line with no single 5th gen fighter ever!!!)

DM has cut down on mountain corps numbers, and rafale numbers citing lack of funds!!!

Gripen too costs more than 100 million dollar per piece. So if 150 grripen E too was bought simultaneously along with 100 odd tejas and 60 plus rafale(another squadron or two follow up order is foregone)

Then where will funds come for AMCA or FGFA?

Gripen E is more souped up with aero parts from all over the world , with even its FBW done in US.

In dog fight what matters is the lift force from low wing loading wing with higher Thrust to weight ratio "in hot 40 plus degree indian hot climate", Gripen C or E has no certified advantage over the corresponding tejas variant that was clearly demonstrated to indian public in any air show.

What is even more pathetic is Gripen E is supposed to get its IOC only in 2019. SO only then we can now its real strength.

And Tejas was given a bigger radome dia than gripen E and rafale as per the wishes of IAF, But till now IAF hasn't even shown the least inclination to float a proposal to buy a bigger off the shelf ASEA radar version for tejas , that can be more powerful than both gripen E and rafale and mate it with future meteor !!!

Why?

If the BVR and radar are the issue then IAF is free to float the idea like that. or

whether our IIT educated DM doesn't know that tejas has the physical dimension to port a ASEA radar and highest possible range BVR ?

Why he didn't he unveil his famous make in india initiative to foreign radar makers citing 200 plus orders from tejas fleet and asked them to adopt a ASEA radar that is bigger and powerful than rafale and gripen E?

if BVR is obsolete then F-35, F-22, J-20, J-31, PAKFA are all obsolete, Because their main USP is BVR . Stealth is of little use without BVR.

Even if a rafale from enemy fleet enters indian airspace for strike role, it is sure going to be discovered by indian AWACS. And if any other fighter from IAf is asked to scramble and fires a BVR on rafale the first prerequisite for enemy rafale is to drop its strike loads of bombs and head home, because such costly advance fighters how omni role they can be , can not pull their evasive Gs with strike loads.

So effectively their mission is oover with millions of dollars strike package dropped away from intended target.

Then they can not engage in a fight in enemy teritory with three times more in number tejas fleet , trying to beat them in BVR and dog fight.

That is out of the question, because Indian airspace is defended by AWACS, SAMs and 4.5 the gen low clean config RCS fighter like tejas in high hundreds.

When it come to gripen E it is even more laughable. Gripen E may have marginally superiority over tejas(nothing demonstrated in indian conditions, all only in impractical brochure BS). But it is close to thrice the cost of tejas.


So if IAF is given the same budget , it can field thrice the tejas number compared to one third gripen E number.

Because for the "famous screw diriver TOT" under the even more famous "Fake In India " Gripen E line , cost will only be 100 plus million dollar for each gripen E opposed to 26 million dollar for tejas!!

All assembled by any one of those dalals in indian stock market , in an even more famous "fake In India " private sector production line, with zero knowledge.!!!!

First let this private sector guys design a decent assault rifle and pistol for IA with as much technical help from abroad and prove its worth, then lets think about making true blue 4.5 the gen fighter , and getting their "fake TOT"

A sick joke is being played on IAF by G lobby who have the ear of fadnavis.

i dont know how far this is gong to go?

 

[Pulkit]

The issue is simply, G lobby is trying to influence Parrikar through Fadnavis with make G in Nagpur slogan.

This is the first time in the operational history of IAF that a defence minister suddenly "discovers" a need for fighter that is between rafale and tejas!!!!

It is stupid to invent new categories using the figleaf of depleting squadron strength of IAF. First retired IAF higher ups were used by MMRCA lobby to spread the "truth" that with sudden urge to bomb deep into tibet, single engined light fighters are obsolete. Now our DM is loose phrasing a need for another mid tier in IAF between rafale and tejas, where no other fighter other than gripen E has a presence.

So if this need fructifies it is going to be another Goody-Goody government to government deal with a single minded intent to buy gripen E, whose weight has gone above 8 tons!!!

All the while most of the DDM , jour"analists' and IAf retired chair marshaks were bemoaning the under powered tejas!!! How can they now plump for gripen E which will definitely more underpowered than tejas mk2. gripen C is underpowered compared to tejas mk1, In the same way gripen E is underpowered compared to tejas mk2, whose redesign is minimal 0.5 meter fuselage plug, opposed to very detailed redesign of griepen E which has included drag induced fairings to carry extra fuel to compete with rafale and typhoon.

There is no single airforce in the world that operates two types of extremely expensive 4.5th gen fighters such as gripen E and rafale in large number at break your back pricing in high 200 plus numbers(because if gripen is to make in maharastra it will need atleast 150 plus orders, that means parrikar -fadnavis duo is either closing down tejas mk2 program or creating their own make in india all 4.5 the gen IAF , that will be so obsolete 15 years down the line with no single 5th gen fighter ever!!!)

DM has cut down on mountain corps numbers, and rafale numbers citing lack of funds!!!

Gripen too costs more than 100 million dollar per piece. So if 150 grripen E too was bought simultaneously along with 100 odd tejas and 60 plus rafale(another squadron or two follow up order is foregone)
Then where will funds come for AMCA or FGFA?

I have a different take on this ......

The present DM has played it well in terms of balancing what ever said in public forum....
This is what he said .... quote unquote
1)Tejas is the only aircraft which can replace MIG 21 .
2)If Tejas is not able to be fruitful we need to look for some other single engine aircraft ... (Just like u said Possibly G)
3)The requirements of our forces are not realistic.
4)We can look for private partners.

Clear message sent to IAF HAL ADA DRDO:

IAF: The way you have treated Tejas mk1 will not work now. IAF needs to be realistic and committed towards Tejas MK2.Requirements cannot be changed in later stages.

ADA/DRDO: You have no option apart from delivering product on time and as per the requirements. If you do not deliver we will get someone who can .

HAL: You will be replaced by private players. You can keep what are you good in rest all will be taken away from you.


Regarding cost factor Rafale deal even if further order of 24-36 (I hope not) is made will cost around 8 billion roughly that means a virtual saving of 8 billions minimum.
Gripen is also not worth investment right now as we have similar a/c in the form of tejas mk2 round the corner.

If we induct Rafale and Gripen in large number then just like u said we will be left with no money for AMCA and FGFA.


Right now the focus shud be on Tejas MK2 and FGFA.

But the present DM is sensible enuf to understand all these aspects.