ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[nitesh]

http://machinist.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2878&Itemid=2

Bhubaneswar: The Central Tool Room & Training Centre (CTTC), Bhubaneswar has been identified by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) as the production centre for the bulk production of Fuel and Environmental Control System components for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
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[ace009]

Its certainly heartening to see her all grown up into a fine bird of her own league.

I did quite a bit of research on how much demand is there on the open market for tejas, from what I've found. Few airforces apart from the Indian air force are in quite desperate need of aircraft. I've categorised them into look east and look west. In the east we have vietnam looking to replace 200 mig-21 and indonesia looking for 50 kfx. In the west we have egypt which needs to replace j-7, mirage 5, mig-21 amounting to 173 and turkey f-5 at 77.
Lets say after 40 tejas mk-1 IAF doesn't want anymore, so what I propose is in the words of godfather "an offer they can't refuse" that IAF will transfer air worthy Tejas 10 each (8 single-seat and 2- twin) to two nations it is operating from the second squadron which was formed after FOC to either of the west or east consortium, while Hal replaces tejas in Iaf 2nd squadron through 2016, since by then tejas mk-2 will be ready for production, the assembly and production lines that are exclusive to tejas Mk-1 can be transferred then to the east or west consortium completely free of charge provided they pay for transportation and oppurtunity cost, i.e to sum up zero profits, atleast the work put in by scientists and engineers for mk-1 will not be wasted. Wastage of resources is criminal by all accounts, since the IAF will never realise this, we rather make some friends through these unprepedented gestures. I'm also open to transferring the line to a single nation, if they are so committed, but lets not waste it.

tell me what u guys think, I have another idea as well. But I'll post it after a good debate on the current sugession.

If we want to sell LCA Tejas and find buyers in other countries, why not? We can even give the first few away for free if that gives us a few hundred sales.
The bigger question is, what kind of production line do we have? Can we make them fast enough to supply IAF and IN as well as supply them to external buyers?
I am not sure if we should sell it to

 

[SHASH2K2]

If we want to sell LCA Tejas and find buyers in other countries, why not? We can even give the first few away for free if that gives us a few hundred sales.
The bigger question is, what kind of production line do we have? Can we make them fast enough to supply IAF and IN as well as supply them to external buyers?
I am not sure if we should sell it to

Even if we ramp up the production LCA cannot be exported without an Indian Engine . Thats not coming in few years so even if we want we cannot export LCA as of now.

 

[maomao]

Even if we ramp up the production LCA cannot be exported without an Indian Engine . Thats not coming in few years so even if we want we cannot export LCA as of now.

Thats not a problem, China has been selling its Junk to pakistan with Russian engines, note that China itself does not use Junk Fighter-17s, so leave engine even if we don't use LCA in large numbers there will always be a Market for a fighter superior to Chinese junk sold world over (which is nominally priced).

 

[ace009]

Hmmm - The problem is the price. Chinese millitary exports are really cheap - because they are junk and because China has excess production capacity. But I doubt we can stoop so low in quality or develop such production excesses.

 

[gogbot]

Hmmm - The problem is the price. Chinese millitary exports are really cheap - because they are junk and because China has excess production capacity. But I doubt we can stoop so low in quality or develop such production excesses.

Get real , production quality is not the reason China has such a high production capacity , nor is it the reason they can produce products so cheaply.

If you actually think what you said is true , you should get plane ticket to Pakistan , then you will be finally around people who are as deluded as you are.

Be rational with you comments , you make your self look bad and make us look bad.

China has built it self an industrial and infrastructure base to process everything from raw materials to Shipping. It's done that over the last two decades.

India is still building that industry and making that infrastructure , its long process, even longer in India.

There is no stopping to low quality involved in anything

What we need is investment in manufacturing and a series of Infrastructure projects from Ports to rail and roads.

 

[SHASH2K2]

Thats not a problem, China has been selling its Junk to pakistan with Russian engines, note that China itself does not use Junk Fighter-17s, so leave engine even if we don't use LCA in large numbers there will always be a Market for a fighter superior to Chinese junk sold world over (which is nominally priced).

Mao brother question still remains . which engine will be used in exported LCA?

 

[zhlee]

Why China has such a amazing productivity? See this.

[video]http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTk3NzI5NTYw/v.swf[/video]

 

[maomao]

Mao brother question still remains . which engine will be used in exported LCA?

Bro, use any engine, be it Indian or foreign, if the company allows it to be exported-which it will as more sales convert to more profits; sales is never an issue, take example of China and its sale of Junk Fighter to pakistan.

 

[Rahul Singh]

LCA Tejas Falls Short of Earlier Expectations

Nov 25, 2010

By Asia-Pacific Staff
New Delhi

As India's homegrown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA Tejas) nears critical initial operational clearance next month, Indian air force officials say the aircraft will fail to meet performance requirements laid down by the service for the limited-profile Mk.1 platform.

According to an Indian air force source associated with the long-delayed indigenous fighter program, when the Tejas passes this milestone in December, it still will not be the fighter the air force had agreed to accept for limited squadron service. Performance specifications that the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has not been able to attain include sustained turn rate, speed at low altitude, angle of attack and certain weapon delivery profiles. Exactly how far off the performance is from the specification remains classified.

The Tejas program has enlisted EADS to help expand the flight envelope to meet service requirements.

These shortfalls come on top of a thrust deficiency that necessitated the selection of a more powerful engine, General Electric's F414-INS6, this year for a proposed Mk.2 version.

"We are still working to get the platform on track for initial operational clearance," says an air force officer. "It appears the exercise of resolving certain performance parameters will spill over into the post-induction phase," he notes. "There was a very committed effort toward envelope expansion, though we have fallen short in certain key specifications, which we will continue to work on."

Former air force chief Srinivasapuram Krishnaswamy, who first pushed the idea of a limited induction of the homegrown fighter even if it did not fully meet service requirements, argues that the aircraft needs to be delivered without any further delay. "Once it is delivered, all outstanding issues can be ironed out and our pilots can get a chance to see what it is capable of. It is important to get it into service. That is the key."

Initial deliveries of the aircraft early next year will be to the Indian air force's Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment in Bangalore, where the platforms will be tested before formal induction into squadron service for a year-long exercise in defining a role for the Tejas. The service has ordered 20 Tejas Mk.1 jets (and is processing an order for 20 more), powered by the GE F414-IN20 for two inaugural squadrons that will be established at peninsular air bases after the Aero India show in February.

The Tejas program has embarked on putting the ostensibly more capable Tejas Mk.2 on track, as well. An ADA team is optimizing the Tejas airframe for the F414 powerplant and has initiated studies on the aircraft's proposed operational envelope, fluid dynamics studies of new components and analysis of new engine components. The team is also producing fresh numerical master geometry and inboard drawings, a new digital mock-up of the entire Mk.2, and a wind tunnel model in collaboration with the National Aerospace Laboratory.

The Tejas Mk.2 is scheduled to make its first flight in 2014, with full-rate production to follow two years later.

 

[Rahul Singh]

I fear till 26 December arrives and CEMILAC formally allow IAF to grant IOC to LCA these types of articles will continue flooding. Only god knows what special these journalists feel while writing the same old copy-paste stuff every time. It would have been much better if one among these have posted photo of the cockpit of LSP-5.

 

[Patriot]

LCA Faces Huge Cost Escalation

India Defence Online, New Delhi – While the Indian Defence Minister A K Antony has assured that the indigenous 'Tejas' light combat aircraft (LCA) will get its "initial operational clearance" in December, the 'Tejas' LCA project has seen an astronomical rise in its price tag and the development cost.

According to sources, the first 40 'Tejas' LCA to be inducted in the Indian Armed Forces will cost roughly $33.3 million excluding its development cost. As for the development cost of the 'Tejas' LCA, the overall figure is to the tune of $3.8 billion which is a 3000 per cent hike from the cost during the conception of the project over two decades ago. The sanctioned cost includes the fighter's naval variant, which will run till December 2018.

The 'Tejas' has carried out around 1,420 flights with 10 prototypes till date. The full-scale engineering development (FSED) Phase-I till March 2004 cost Rs 2,188 crore. The Phase-II, to be completed by December 2012, will cost another $1.28 billion. In addition, there is the fabrication of two Tejas Mark-II, with alternate engines, to be completed by Dec 2018 for $540 million, along with development of indigenous technologies for $88 million. The Naval Tejas FSED Phase-I, in turn, is to be completed by Dec 2014 for $38.1 million, with Phase-II slated for completion by December 2018 for another $426.8 million.

It has also been finalised that the 'Tejas' LCA is to be powered by General Electric engines and India recently finalised a $822-million deal for 99 GE F-414 engines. While the first 20 Tejas for the IAF will be powered by GE-404 engines, the next six Mark-II squadrons will have the more powerful GE F-414 engines. The choice of GE engines for 'Tejas' LCA has also rendered a loss of $630.8 million which was spent on the development of the indigenous Kaveri engine since 1990.

The 'Tejas' program has encountered several delays that have extended the development effort by over two decades. The LCA first ran into rough waters as the design was being finalised in 1990 when a government commission found several deficiencies in critical technology areas. This resulted in the decision to build two technology demonstrator aircraft to ensure these issues could be resolved. The first of these aircraft rolled out in 1995, but difficulties with the flight control system and manufacturing of composite structural components kept the plane grounded. Another major setback occurred in 1998 when India's nuclear tests prompted the US to place sanctions on the sale of General Electric F404 turbofans for the LCA.

After the lifting of sanctions, the first technology demonstrator (TD-1) finally took to the air in 2001. Once joined by TD-2 and two prototype vehicles (PV-1 and PV-2), these aircraft were used to test and verify the advanced technologies planned for the 'Tejas' fleet. A second phase of testing began in late 2006 with the first flight of the production prototype vehicle PV-3. Other test vehicles to be completed include prototypes of a naval variant (PV-4) and a trainer model (PV-5). Weapon integration flight testing began in 2007 and low-rate production was due to start by 2008. Despite signs of progress, ongoing engine problems and test delays have pushed service entry as late as 2015. 'Tejas' LCA will replace the MiG aircraft and Sea Harriers with the IAF and Indian Navy respectively.








http://indiadefenceonline.com/2315/lca-faces-huge-cost-escalation/

 

[vijay jagannathan]

Everything about LCA has been delayed and everything has been reasoned out----some by the forum members themselves just for the sake of being an LCA supporter which in no way hides the truth. I am an LCA supporter and wish to see it succeed but everytime there is a small forward step there are 10 times as many backward steps.

When everything has been delayed including the LSP 5 ( by about 6 months) please do not be surprised if the IOC date is missed. It is most likely to happen.

The fact that so much was anticipated from the LSP -5 flight and so little has been divulged and publicised certainly raises eyebrows but the LCA has raised eyebrows so many times they refuse (at least mine) to raise now. There has not even been a close up photo of the LSP-5. Maybe the cockpit couldn't be modified in time. Do I sound like a case of sour grapes?

Absolute silence of what is happening on the LCA naval front. Is it not prudent to upgrade the design of the naval version to mark 2 status now itself to save energy and time? Is it not better to go for the F414 engine for the naval version and do the necessary changes? Imagine the cost over runs due to delays.

why hasn't there been a critical analysis of the LCA versus the Gripen when the performance of the gripen with a similar engine is good enough for it to be considered worthy of a top contender in MRCA? did the ADA/DRDO take the oppurtunity to closely look at the gripen when it was in India for almost a month? Why are we having weight issues with LCA when there is a lot of chest thumping about use of composites to the extent that it is claimed to use the max composite amongst modern planes?

why isn't a modified air intake being thought of as an immediate step? I seriously don't think we have to wait for 3-5 years to modify the airintake. At least one LSP can be modified and performance assessed. What has the EADS feedback about air intake design been? Finally what does the technical consultant for LCA - EADS really think of the LCA ? come on lets have an honest apprisal from the horses mouth. Journalists must stop running after DRDO and ADA. They are and will be biased and no critical problems have been honestly discussed openly.

I am very clear on one thing. LSP -6 the plane meant for High AoA test will be the make or break plane. If the ADA does not reveal the performance parameter of this plane after the expansion of the full flight envelope then LCA most unfortunately has to be branded a failure. A fighter plane that too 4-4.5 generation not only should take off but also do certain things in the sky for it to be called a fighter. Or else send it to the air wing of the National Cadet Corps --- atleast let the kids have some fun.

 

[chex3009]

Why there isn't any video release of the LSP-5???? Can anybody have some stuff on this???

 

[mattster]

There have been a lot of comments about the LCA - but I think some folks are missing the "forest for the trees".

The LCA should be considered an expensive but necessary learning experience for India.
I dont really think that anyone in the IAF is relying on the LCA to protect India when war breaks out despite what they say in public.

I think Indians must realize that if they want to build complex defense equipment like aircraft, submarines, aircraft-carriers, tanks, etc.......then the only way to do it is to enable a vibrant private defense sector that can move hundred times faster than public government owned entities.

There are only 3 areas of defense that need to be wholly owned government agencies:

1) Nuclear weapons
2) Ballistic missiles
3) Space program

These 3 sectors because of the security implications and massive capital investment required must be government run.

All other DRDO departments should slowly be sold to established industrial conglomerates like Tata, L&T, Mahindra, etc , or spun off as private companies.
Then India will see much faster results on defense projects. They could even be partially government owned companies but run like private companies like BHEL, etc.

GOI could then support private defense companies by providing R&D grants, joint risk-sharing financial agreements, etc to offset the massive investment risk that private companies have to take to develop defense products.

This is how it is done in most of the Western world, even though I realize that you cannot compare the West to China and India in this respect. But India and China's industrial supply chains have reached a level of maturity where it is possible for the state to slowly shift these industries to the private sector.

This could not have been done 30 years ago when the Indian economy was too weak and the big industrial conglomerates were not financially strong enough to take on the defense segment. But today I think that the Indian private industry is slowly coming of age and GOI has a lot more money to spend on defense so the financial incentive is clearly there for them.

Clearly the Indian, Chinese and to a lesser extent Russian model(which is quite similar) for major defense projects have in many ways been mirror images of each other. Both countries have stumbled and in China's case even struggling to make copies.

It is a model that was necessary 30 years ago, but increasingly has outlived its usefulness.

A good example of this is EADS - what was EADS before it was formed. It was actually made of the government owned defense entities of Germany, France, UK, Spain, Italy.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[maomao]

Sirji, this is not a Tejas cockpit, its some Chinese Showbazi, as they like to make replicas and zillion different displays to attract fools such as pakistanis who cannot buy weapons from anywhere else!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sirji, this is not a Tejas cockpit, its some Chinese Showbazi, as they like to make replicas and zillion different displays to attract fools such as pakistanis who cannot buy weapons from anywhere else!!

Correct!
Its seems now, its a J-11B Cockpit, The MFD are almost the same Size.. !

 

[maomao]

Correct!
Its seems now, its a J-11B Cockpit, The MFD are almost the same Size.. !

Nice pic of the cockpit....somehow I get a feel that the ergonomics of Tejas is similar to EF!!

 

[Parthy]

Tejas Ready For Sea Trials In Goa

India's Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is ready to undergo another round of crucial sea trials in Goa.

Sources tell AVIATION WEEK that this time the testing will involve the firing of a missile and the jettisoning of a drop tank. The trials are set to take place this week at Naval Air Station Hansa, Dabolim, in Goa. Tejas successfully completed earlier sea trials in September as part of its Out of Station Flight Test Plan.

Pilots from the Bengaluru-based National Flight Test Center will perform the weapon trials this time.

"The density of air and humidity is very high in Goa. This time during the sea-level trials we are evaluating the radar, helmet-mounted systems and instrument landing systems," a source said. "We will also test the radar warning receiver."

In addition to firing a Russian-made R-73 air-to-air missile, the pilots are scheduled to test the safe drop tank separation from the aircraft.

"We have done all the ground-based tests. We are planning four-five drops at various speeds, altitudes and angles of attack," a source said. "Tejas can carry 5,000 liters of fuel, including 1,200 each in drop tanks [and] 2,400 in wings and fuselage."

Tejas also can carry two outboard R-73 missiles and two mid-board beyond visual range (BVR) Derby missiles from Israel.

"We have fired an R-73 missile in October 2007 against a zero target. It is important to see the safe separation of the missile," the source said. Plume separation studies, which involve interaction with a missile's exhaust, also will be carried out during the trials.

Various Tejas platforms have performed 1,481 flights, clocking about 878 hr. Tejas also has achieved Mach 1.6 at 15 km. altitude and a calibrated air speed of 1,350 kph.

Tejas is scheduled to complete its pre-initial operational clearance requirements by Dec. 27.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...ml&headline=Tejas Ready For Sea Trials In Goa