ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Rahul Singh]

Last i heard they where going to buy an instant re-start pack from the US for testing on High AoA. There was an issue with the intake being designed badly that it causes flame out at High AoAs. The 22*alpha is considered very minimal by today's standards where Aircrafts go up to 45* or more.

I have not read any report regarding ADA buying instant re-starter pack for LCA from US. But if they are buying then it is a great news. BTW today(since technology provides the luxury) any instant re-starter pack is considered as a must for any single engine jet fighter for safety. So, even if ADA is buying one, it should very well be considered as an essential sub-system of HF-XX Tejas propulsion mechanism or F-404IN. Not to mention that like every fighter jet Tejas too needs an in flight engine re-lighter and since it is a single engine jet the quicker the better. Now i wonder, what's special in that, other than making Tejas even more safer?

You know there is a difference between 'Sustained Alpha' and 'Alpha'. One example. Various fighter jet's feature booklet writes "Unlimited Alpha". What it means? Considering it means 180*alpha, i wonder, can a jet fly with its engine forward? Answer should be 'no' and is no. But if the question is "can a jet pull 180* alpha" the answer should be yes and is yes because SU-30MKIs and its family regularly pulls 180* alpha. But it doesn't mean that they can fly with their tail forward , for a second they may look like flying with tail forward but they simply can't fly parallel to the ground in that position. In simple words they can't sustain a 180*alpha flight. Similarly LCA can pull beyond 22* alpha, may be to 45* or above but right now we are only talking about how much it had sustained and 10 months ago LCA was sustaining 22* alpha. One should not forget that LCA is still uncertified and it is only at FOC when Tejas will perform as desired or as per ASR.

 

[maomao]

 

[Rahul Singh]

LSP-5

Source: Tarmak007

 

[Godless-Kafir]

I have not read any report regarding ADA buying instant re-starter pack for LCA from US. But if they are buying then it is a great news. BTW today(since technology provides the luxury) any instant re-starter pack is considered as a must for any single engine jet fighter for safety. So, even if ADA is buying one, it should very well be considered as an essential sub-system of HF-XX Tejas propulsion mechanism or F-404IN. Not to mention that like every fighter jet Tejas too needs an in flight engine re-lighter and since it is a single engine jet the quicker the better. Now i wonder, what's special in that, other than making Tejas even more safer?

The restart was only for testing purposes, if i remember correctly it was called an Hydrogen powered re-starter which they use for testing aircraft's at beyond stall angles. This is not intended on the PVs. Thats why i was curious on their hurry to induct it without going through their own test regimes.

You know there is a difference between 'Sustained Alpha' and 'Alpha'. One example. Various fighter jet's feature booklet writes "Unlimited Alpha". What it means? Considering it means 180*alpha, i wonder, can a jet fly with its engine forward? Answer should be 'no' and is no. But if the question is "can a jet pull 180* alpha" the answer should be yes and is yes because SU-30MKIs and its family regularly pulls 180* alpha. But it doesn't mean that they can fly with their tail forward , for a second they may look like flying with tail forward but they simply can't fly parallel to the ground in that position. In simple words they can't sustain a 180*alpha flight. Similarly LCA can pull beyond 22* alpha, may be to 45* or above but right now we are only talking about how much it had sustained and 10 months ago LCA was sustaining 22* alpha. One should not forget that LCA is still uncertified and it is only at FOC when Tejas will perform as desired or as per ASR.

I understand what AoA is and i have discussed this issue on BR couple of months back and there was a furious row on the comments made by the test pilot about the intakes being improperly designed and chocking at high AoAs which cause flame outs. The Gripen did 100* AoA on its first test flight at least thats what i heard but then they crashed the Gripen while pushing it very hard but i dont mind an Aircraft getting crashed while testing rather than waiting till induction and fearing negative criticism like with the LCA. They should push it to the limit and exceed its AoA as far as i know they have not tested it for stall or spin recovery? I hope they move faster now that its approaching induction phase.

 

[Anshu Attri]

sorry!!!!!!!!already posted......

 

[nitesh]

G-K, can you please go through post 666 in this thread, going through that you will understand that the brochure/advertised figure of planes need not necessary tested. Even after entering service. So let us not comment based on brochure figure of other planes

 

[Rahul Singh]

The restart was only for testing purposes, if i remember correctly it was called an Hydrogen powered re-starter which they use for testing aircraft's at beyond stall angles. This is not intended on the PVs. Thats why i was curious on their hurry to induct it without going through their own test regimes.

All i remember is one article which had quoted ADA saying "the new engine for Tejas must come with feature to instantly auto start the engine in case of flame out". May be one that you quoted was purpose built for high AoA testing. But nevertheless now a days all fighters specially single engine fighters are equipped with mid air jet starters. So in one form or the other this jet starters are there on Prototypes and will be there on production variants too.

I understand what AoA is and i have discussed this issue on BR couple of months back and there was a furious row on the comments made by the test pilot about the intakes being improperly designed and chocking at high AoAs which cause flame outs.

Yes, the intakes of LCA do not provide adequate airflow which in turn restricts LCA from pulling high alpha. Not to mention here that for intake design ADA had taken consultancy from Dassault. But what is done is done and can only be improved at MK-2 level. BTW initially when Tejas's intake design was being done and completed the required AoA was far less than what it is today. Air intake design can't be changed so frequently like ASR!

The Gripen did 100* AoA on its first test flight at least thats what i heard but then they crashed the Gripen while pushing it very hard but i dont mind an Aircraft getting crashed while testing rather than waiting till induction and fearing negative criticism like with the LCA. They should push it to the limit and exceed its AoA as far as i know they have not tested it for stall or spin recovery? I hope they move faster now that its approaching induction phase.

I seriously don't think any new fighter on its very first flight pulls 100* AoA. Pulling 100*AoA is an extreme manoeuvre and normally not executed by any new fighter that too in its very first flights. All i know that objectives behind first flight remains testing only basic flying characteristics of a new design.

I had read cause behind every JAS-39 Gripen accidents but i am still to see one which says they crashed one Gripen while testing it for high AoA. All i know is that one time one Swedish pilot pulled high AoA(i don't know what exact number was) unknowingly during one air combat training exercise when he was getting stall warning. In order to stop the jet from stalling he pulled hard on stick which resulted in rapid reduction in speed followed by stalling and crashing.

Tejas must have already been tested for relatively high AOA as well as for stall recovery for the purpose of documenting stall recovery procedure, if not then there can't be any IOC. I remember reading one e-book on high AOA Tejas where it was written that without documenting Tejas's stall recover procedure there can be no IOC. Considering this and one news in BROADSWORD(few months ago) i guess Tejas test pilots must have documented stall recovery procedure meaning test must have already been carried out.

There is a big difference between Bharat and Sweden, ADA and SAAB and most importantly mentality of Bharatiya and Swedish. Gripen can be tested for AOA risking aircraft but back in Bharat even a single minor incident (forget crashing and burning entire jet and killing a Testpilot) can throw the project LCA to dustbin and ADA from very start knows this.

 

[dineshchaturvedi]

Why no celebration on this news are we all not waiting for LSP5?

 

[black eagle]

I'm guessing that the colour scheme seen in this pic may be the one that we'll see in all future IAF Tejas. With dark ghost grey on the dorsal side, lighter ghost gray on the ventral side and even lighter ghost gray radome..a slight variation on the somewhat lighter Tipnis gray scheme seen on most other IAF aircraft nowadays. I love it. :happy_8:

 

[Patriot]

LCA Tejas Falls Short of Earlier Expectations

By Asia-Pacific Staff
New Delhi

As India's homegrown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA Tejas) nears critical initial operational clearance next month, Indian air force officials say the aircraft will fail to meet performance requirements laid down by the service for the limited-profile Mk.1 platform.

According to an Indian air force source associated with the long-delayed indigenous fighter program, when the Tejas passes this milestone in December, it still will not be the fighter the air force had agreed to accept for limited squadron service. Performance specifications that the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has not been able to attain include sustained turn rate, speed at low altitude, angle of attack and certain weapon delivery profiles. Exactly how far off the performance is from the specification remains classified.

The Tejas program has enlisted EADS to help expand the flight envelope to meet service requirements.

These shortfalls come on top of a thrust deficiency that necessitated the selection of a more powerful engine, General Electric's F414-INS6, this year for a proposed Mk.2 version.

"We are still working to get the platform on track for initial operational clearance," says an air force officer. "It appears the exercise of resolving certain performance parameters will spill over into the post-induction phase," he notes. "There was a very committed effort toward envelope expansion, though we have fallen short in certain key specifications, which we will continue to work on."

Former air force chief Srinivasapuram Krishnaswamy, who first pushed the idea of a limited induction of the homegrown fighter even if it did not fully meet service requirements, argues that the aircraft needs to be delivered without any further delay. "Once it is delivered, all outstanding issues can be ironed out and our pilots can get a chance to see what it is capable of. It is important to get it into service. That is the key."

Initial deliveries of the aircraft early next year will be to the Indian air force's Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment in Bangalore, where the platforms will be tested before formal induction into squadron service for a year-long exercise in defining a role for the Tejas. The service has ordered 20 Tejas Mk.1 jets (and is processing an order for 20 more), powered by the GE F414-IN20 for two inaugural squadrons that will be established at peninsular air bases after the Aero India show in February.

The Tejas program has embarked on putting the ostensibly more capable Tejas Mk.2 on track, as well. An ADA team is optimizing the Tejas airframe for the F414 powerplant and has initiated studies on the aircraft's proposed operational envelope, fluid dynamics studies of new components and analysis of new engine components. The team is also producing fresh numerical master geometry and inboard drawings, a new digital mock-up of the entire Mk.2, and a wind tunnel model in collaboration with the National Aerospace Laboratory.

The Tejas Mk.2 is scheduled to make its first flight in 2014, with full-rate production to follow two years later.

DRDO









http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?topicName=Check6&id=news/awst/2010/11/22/AW_11_22_2010_p34-270650.xml&headline=LCA%20Tejas%20Falls%20Short%20of%20Earlier%20Expectations&channel=&from=topicalreports

 

[plugwater]

tarmak007

 

[chex3009]

The official DRDO Press Release

Tejas, India's Light Combat Aircraft, in its march towards operational status, achieved an important milestone today when the fifth Limited Series Production (LSP-5) aircraft made historic first flight. LSP5 aircraft is the first LCA in the Operational Configuration for the Indian Air Force.
The LSP-5 was piloted by test pilot Lt Cdr Ankur Jain, from the Indian Navy. The aircraft took off at 1054 hours and achieved a max speed of 0.8 mach, 4G turns, and an altitude of 11 km during the 40 min flight.
The flight was uneventful and all systems functioned normally, clearing all the test points.
This is the culmination of the efforts of all the stakeholders viz., HAL, IAF, DRDO Labs, Defence PSUs, CEMILAC, DGAQA and Aeronautical Development Agency. This has been a great team effort to get the final standard aircraft in the flight line.
The LSP-5 first flight was directed by Wg Cdr Sreedharan Toffeen, Test Director. Gp Capt G Thomas, Chief Test Pilot of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) piloted the chase aircraft.
This is another proud moment for 'Team Tejas' taking the endeavour close the Initial Operational Capabilities.

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/

Aren't the bold part still worrying while HF-XX is ready for IOC next Month????

 

[Rahul Singh]

LCA Tejas Falls Short of Earlier Expectations
Performance specifications that the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has not been able to attain include sustained turn rate, speed at low altitude, angle of attack and certain weapon delivery profiles.

Problems:

>"Sustained rate of turn". It has everything to do with engine thrust in both dry and wet regime. And a new hight thrust engine is the only solution.

> "speed at low altitude". It has every thing to do with sustained alpha which in turn depends on peak power of engine which in turn depends to some extent on how much air it gets through intakes? Nothing hidden, intakes are poor as per design and restricts required air flow to the engine at hight AOA. Both in combination reduces overall thrust resulting in poor 'low-speed--low-altitude' performance. BTW peak power of F-404 was always 5 KN less than desired and it was never the required engine for Tejas.

> "angle of attack". Blame F-404 IN, it delivers 5 KN less power. A new powerful engine with high dry thrust is the solution.

>"certain weapon delivery profiles". Refine algorithm, add better sensors and smart weapons Job Done but only after IOC. And don't blame Tejas for not being able to carry optimum combat load till it gets powerful high thrust engine.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Aren't the bold part still worrying while HF-XX is ready for IOC next Month????

Absolutely not! This LSP was on its maiden flight and normally test pilot do not pull COBRA and Spill-S on jets first flight. Their objective on first flight is just to check if the jet is flyable or it has some [manufacturing] defects.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Absolutely not! This LSP was on its maiden flight and normally test pilot do not pull COBRA and Spill-S on jets first flight. Their objective on first flight is just to check if the jet is flyable or it has some [manufacturing] defects.

The Airforce mandates high AoA testing before induction. They have still not tested it completely and i am not sure if it would pass the AFs strict test regimes. May be they should redesign the air intakes like in the F/A-18 hornet which has a similar semicircle intake which they redesigned to a square box type intake. They sloths at HAL have to do something or else its going to be end up like HF-24 Marut which has an under powered engine which reduced its performance.

 

[neo29]

At 17k cr, Tejas cost zooms 3000%

India will spend Rs 17,269 crore in the overall developmental programme of Tejas light combat aircraft, which was first approved in 1983 at a cost of Rs 560 crore to replace aging MiG-21s. This represents an almost 3000% jump, as per revised "sanctioned costs" of the entire Tejas programme, including the fighter's naval variant, which will run till December 2018. IAF pilots are, of course, still forced to fly virtually obsolete MiGs since Tejas is yet to be inducted. Latest figures also show each of the first 40 Tejas fighters will cost around Rs 150 crore, over and above the huge developmental cost.

This comes even as defence minister A K Antony this week assured parliamentary consultative committee on defence that long-delayed Tejas will finally get its "initial operational clearance" in December. The "final operational clearance" is slated for December 2012. While Tejas' per unit cost compares favourably with similar fighters like Gripen ( Sweden), its developmental cost — coupled with the fact that it has already been 27 years in the making — is way too high.

Tejas, incidentally, has clocked around 1,420 flights with 10 prototypes till date. Its FSED (full-scale engineering development) Phase-I till March 2004 cost Rs 2,188 crore. The Phase-II, to be completed by December 2012, will cost another Rs 5,778 crore. To add to that, there is fabrication of two Tejas Mark-II, with alternate engines, to be completed by Dec 2018 for Rs 2,432 crore, along with development of indigenous technologies for Rs 396 crore. Naval Tejas FSED Phase-I, in turn, is to be completed by Dec 2014 for Rs 1,715 crore, with Phase-II slated for completion by December 2018 for another Rs 1,921 crore.

Tejas will, of course, also be powered by American GE engines, with its indigenous Kaveri engine floundering despite Rs 2,839 crore being spent on its development since 1989. Towards this, India recently finalised a $822-million deal for 99 GE F-414 engines. While the first 20 Tejas for IAF will be powered by GE-404 engines, next six Mark-II squadrons will have the more powerful GE F-414 engines.

idrw.org

 

[Rahul Singh]

The Airforce mandates high AoA testing before induction. They have still not tested it completely and i am not sure if it would pass the AFs strict test regimes. May be they should redesign the air intakes like in the F/A-18 hornet which has a similar semicircle intake which they redesigned to a square box type intake. They sloths at HAL have to do something or else its going to be end up like HF-24 Marut which has an under powered engine which reduced its performance.

Yes, Airforce's ASR calls for high AOA testing but what is that figure and is this figure for MK-1 or MK-2 or for both? All i know today is that ASR has been relaxed citing weight problems, underpowered engine and most of all Tejas's superior performance over jets it is cited to replace, not mention in spite of all these curable defects. All news till today is saying that HF-XX Tejas is all set to acquire IOC on 26th of December.

You don't think it will pass IAF strict test regimes? Why? BTW IAF has already ordered 20+20* Tejas and has given go ahead to ADA to start work on MK-2 as well. To me these developments say loud and clear that IAF sees Tejas quite capable of achieving test points they have set.

There is a requirement to increase airflow to engine especially in case of F-414 so without any doubt 'intake' will be re-designed. And as you said, may be angular intakes is one possibility. However, i think ADA may stick with same oval/ round shaped intake but sporting relatively larger frontal area.

Please note that the HAL is no one to do any change in LCA's design, it is not the nodal agency and have absolutely no control over LCA design and required alteration. It is only ADA which had authority to do any design alterations LCA is their product.

 

[hitenray09]

cheer up guys we are through LSP 5 so just await for IOC and we should feel proud of the tejas's route of journey from a scrap to its awaited IOC so let the developing part be in future . lets give a pat to TEJAS.
KEEP IT UP KIDDO

 

[icecoolben]

Its certainly heartening to see her all grown up into a fine bird of her own league.

I did quite a bit of research on how much demand is there on the open market for tejas, from what I've found. Few airforces apart from the Indian air force are in quite desperate need of aircraft. I've categorised them into look east and look west. In the east we have vietnam looking to replace 200 mig-21 and indonesia looking for 50 kfx. In the west we have egypt which needs to replace j-7, mirage 5, mig-21 amounting to 173 and turkey f-5 at 77.
Lets say after 40 tejas mk-1 IAF doesn't want anymore, so what I propose is in the words of godfather "an offer they can't refuse" that IAF will transfer air worthy Tejas 10 each (8 single-seat and 2- twin) to two nations it is operating from the second squadron which was formed after FOC to either of the west or east consortium, while Hal replaces tejas in Iaf 2nd squadron through 2016, since by then tejas mk-2 will be ready for production, the assembly and production lines that are exclusive to tejas Mk-1 can be transferred then to the east or west consortium completely free of charge provided they pay for transportation and oppurtunity cost, i.e to sum up zero profits, atleast the work put in by scientists and engineers for mk-1 will not be wasted. Wastage of resources is criminal by all accounts, since the IAF will never realise this, we rather make some friends through these unprepedented gestures. I'm also open to transferring the line to a single nation, if they are so committed, but lets not waste it.

tell me what u guys think, I have another idea as well. But I'll post it after a good debate on the current sugession.

 

[icecoolben]

LCA tejas India's own way of making friends and allies

Its certainly heartening to see her all grown up into a fine bird of her own league.

I did quite a bit of research on how much demand is there on the open market for tejas, from what I've found. Few airforces apart from the Indian air force are in quite desperate need of aircraft. I've categorised them into look east and look west. In the east we have vietnam looking to replace 200 mig-21 and indonesia looking for 50 kfx. In the west we have egypt which needs to replace j-7, mirage 5, mig-21 amounting to 173 and turkey f-5 at 77.
Lets say after 40 tejas mk-1 IAF doesn't want anymore, so what I propose is in the words of godfather "an offer they can't refuse" that IAF will transfer air worthy Tejas 10 each (8 single-seat and 2- twin) to two nations it is operating from the second squadron which was formed after FOC to either of the west or east consortium, while Hal replaces tejas in Iaf 2nd squadron through 2016, since by then tejas mk-2 will be ready for production, the assembly and production lines that are exclusive to tejas Mk-1 can be transferred then to the east or west consortium completely free of charge provided they pay for transportation and oppurtunity cost, i.e to sum up zero profits, atleast the work put in by scientists and engineers for mk-1 will not be wasted. Wastage of resources is criminal by all accounts, since the IAF will never realise this, we rather make some friends through these unprepedented gestures. I'm also open to transferring the line to a single nation, if they are so committed, but lets not waste it.

tell me what u guys think, I have another idea as well. But I'll post it after a good debate on the current sugession.