ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Kshithij]

F414's additional thrust comes from higher compression ratio it operates. Higher thrust engines rquires higher amount of fuel but only when they are operated at higher than the highest thrust than lower thrust engine.
e.g If F 404 and F 414 is operated at 40 Kg der thrust, F 414 wont consume higher fuel than F404 (infact the fuel consumption shall be a bit low). However, when it will be operated above the highest thrust of 404, i.e 54 KN, it will consume higher amount of fuel. This is true for auto mobile engines as well in most of the circumstances.

The above is true only in the circumstance where the size and configuration of the engines are almost similar. The additional thrust is achieved through improving Compression Ratio or airflow.

That is why I said that the SFC matters. Also, if F414 and F404 run on same dry thrust of 54kN, F404 will consume less fuel due to the fan size of F414 being bigger which makes the energy required to keep the fans rotating higher for F414 and hence requires more fuel for same thrust. Turbofan engines work most efficiently when running at highest speed

 

[Sancho]

By that time period every one will be inducting 5th generation aircraft, but we will be thigh slapping for tejas mk-2

Yes, that's the sad part about it and if we take the troubled development certification history of MK1 into account, 2025 is optimistic.
The idea of Tejas as a modern 4th gen fighters, along the lines of western standards (flight performance, materials, reduced RCS, modern avionics and EW), showed the potential it had, but it simply was far too much for our industry to deliver. The more the project got delayed, the more the potential of Tejas got reduced.

 

[Sancho]

Last teen fighter of US is going to stay till 2048

Big difference if you keep operating an already inducted fighter till that time, or if you introduce a new fighter in that time.
Inducting MK2 in 2025 would mean, it could be in service till 2065!!!

 

[Enquirer]

Big difference if you keep operating an already inducted fighter till that time, or if you introduce a new fighter in that time.
Inducting MK2 in 2025 would mean, it could be in service till 2065!!!

It's not prudent to compare India with the most advanced militaries.
India is constrained by budget and its own technological nascence.
Tejas Mk2 (despite it not being a 5th generation fighter) will server IAF quite well - it'll have most of the modern avionics & weaponry.

 

[Sancho]

If you talk about numbers, let us have a look.

The issue is not numbers but capability!

In times when our enemies will use 5th gen aircrafts (including UCAVs), in addition to high capable 4.5th gen medium and heavy fighters, LCA MK2 hardly adds anything to the security of the country. It was aimed at countering 3rd and 4th gen fighters, just as for air warfare of 2000 to 2020, but air warfare is evolving into the next generation of capabilities and our enemies got much more capable in the meant time too. That's why IAF itself is focusing on adding capabilities too, be it more AWACS and Tankers, 5th gen fighters, or indigenous projects like Rustom H, AMCA and Gathak, while Russians, Europeans, the US and even China are already planing a generation beyond that.

 

[Sancho]

It's not prudent to compare India with the most advanced militaries.

It's not a comparison of different countries, but the operational life of an old and new fighter.

 

[Sancho]

Again FOC deadline moved to December....
Why do they even share a deadline when they are never gonna respect the term deadline....?

If by miracle this deadline is met how soon will the FOC version get delivered?

Out of 20 IOC 11 are still pending. WIll it be safe to say that we will get our first FOC standard aircraft by 2020?

That depends...

HAL is ready to start producing FOCs, but is dependent on IAF to give the official go ahead
=> IAF in turn is dependent on ADA, to finally achieve FOC

So either IAF gives HAL approval to start production, even though ADA once again failed them, or they will remain strict and insist of certification first, which then brings the whole production line in trouble. I would guess that the earlier solution will be prefered, at least by the gov.

 

[Enquirer]

That depends...

HAL is ready to start producing FOCs, but is dependent on IAF to give the official go ahead
=> IAF in turn is dependent on ADA, to finally achieve FOC

So either IAF gives HAL approval to start production, even though ADA once again failed them, or they will remain strict and insist of certification first, which then brings the whole production line in trouble. I would guess that the earlier solution will be prefered, at least by the gov.

How can they start producing FOC when aerial refueling hasn't been fully tested as yet?
And not to mention the IOC quota of 20 fighters hasn't been delivered as yet!

 

[Sancho]

How can they start producing FOC when aerial refueling hasn't been fully tested as yet?
And not to mention the IOC quota of 20 fighters hasn't been delivered as yet!

It has been integrated to the MK1 airframe and tested on the ground, just not in the air, same goes for the gun. But that's not the problem for production start, since you start production of the next lot, while the assembly to the earlier is going on. It takes 3 years to produce all the components and assemble it, that's why they have to start soon, to start delivering them right after IOC.

Interview with HAL CMD: ‘No frozen standard of preparation of LCA… that’s where delays are coming’
November 19, 2017

...As far as the FOC order is concerned, mid-2018 is when FOC is expected to come but we are asking the customer (IAF) to allow us to cut the material. Because if we start now, the aircraft will come after three years. ...

...While the promises are for getting the FOC by mid-2018, we will definitely get it by December 2018. We should then be able to supply these 20 FOC by 2022. And then on to the next 83… If capacities are put on depending on the configuration clearance, the numbers can be rolled out. This is not like an automobile that today you give me a number and automatically I will give you the aircraft immediately. There is a lag, we require all the material to be procured and we need to make 10,000 odd components and put them together, and some components need to be bought from outside.

https://indianexpress.com/article/b...a-thats-where-delays-are-coming-4944113/lite/

 

[ersakthivel]

I have no use for you. But you keep following me around like a street dog with no real family. All you have is the incestuous cult of idiots that cohabit your gutter - impregnating faux-science into each other!!!
You need to be neutered before you grow your idiot cult! Hope you licked with full gusto before I busted yours!

You hv no use for yourself,

Know that first.

Go to chit chat thread,

Or start

A new thread of your own

& Go there with your well informed jackass gang.

Dont call any one names here

 

[ersakthivel]

The issue is not numbers but capability!

In times when our enemies will use 5th gen aircrafts (including UCAVs), in addition to high capable 4.5th gen medium and heavy fighters, LCA MK2 hardly adds anything to the security of the country. It was aimed at countering 3rd and 4th gen fighters, just as for air warfare of 2000 to 2020, but air warfare is evolving into the next generation of capabilities and our enemies got much more capable in the meant time too. That's why IAF itself is focusing on adding capabilities too, be it more AWACS and Tankers, 5th gen fighters, or indigenous projects like Rustom H, AMCA and Gathak, while Russians, Europeans, the US and even China are already planing a generation beyond that.

This is the 1000th times you are posting that, "LCA has no use after 2020",

If so why is SAAB developing gripen E?

USAF plans to use F35 &F 22 in combo with 4th gen fighters till 2050.


Russian Air force is still ordering fkankersf& will fly 100s of 4th gen fighters till 2050.

Same with PLAF.


On the 800 ththpage in this thread , saying 4th gen fighters hv no use beyond 2020 is simply illogical.


4th gen fighters acting in co hort with stealth UCAVs as spotters, can take on 5 the gen fighters any day.

Stealths ,if they hv to fight 4th gen fighters, will hv to use their radars.

Once they do that, they become not so stealths.

Or they too hv to operate with UCAV spotters .

 

[Enquirer]

This is the 1000th times you are posting that, "LCA has no use after 2020",

If so why is SAAB developing gripen E?

USAF plans to use F35 &F 22 in combo with 4th gen fighters till 2050.


Russian Air force is still ordering fkankersf& will fly 100s of 4th gen fighters till 2050.

Same with PLAF.


On the 800 ththpage in this thread , saying 4th gen fighters hv no use beyond 2020 is simply illogical.


4th gen fighters acting in co hort with stealth UCAVs as spotters, can take on 5 the gen fighters any day.

Stealths ,if they hv to fight 4th gen fighters, will hv to use their radars.

Once they do that, they become not so stealths.

Or they too hv to operate with UCAV spotters .

I don't believe in the obsolescence of Tejas Mk2 either, but should nutjob like you have to sneak in a bit of your idiocy into every comment?

Stealth fighters cannot operate without other stealth UCAV spotters? What a moron!
Ever heard of IRST?

 

[no smoking]

F-35 US has planned a total of 340 of these. Not yet inducted.

No, the latest plan is 2456 F35s for US airforce, marine, navy.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...5-multiyear-procurement-strategy-to-s-447785/

5th gen concept has been brought to minimize the existing numbers of fighter aircraft. So no one in sane mind would think of fielding 1000's of 5t Gen fighters.

That is incorrect. minimizing the existing numbers of fighters has never been the concept of 5th generation plane, it is simply the by-product of supersonic cruise. The reason that we haven't seen any country to field over 1000's of 5 generation planes are:
1. 5 g planes are still in early stage;
2. The major military powers don't see a WW3 scenario which requires an airforce of over 1000 5 gen fighters;
3. The quick development in aviation industry and AI may soon bring 6 generation plane into service earlier than expected.

 

[square]

India too could be inducting 5th gen aircraft (in parallel with Tejas Mk2) in the 2025-2030 timeframe. It's not either-or...it's both!

which 5th gen aircraft ..........?

 

[Enquirer]

which 5th gen aircraft ..........?

Could be FGFA or F35.....
Buying a squadron or two is not out of the realm of possibilities.

India's adversary is NOT US, that it needs to rush with the induction of stealth fighters. When Russia (the primary adversary of US) hasn't yet inducted any stealth aircraft, what's the big rush for India. Sure enough it would need it in the medium term.

Also one other thing folks are missing is that Rafales equipped with powerful SPJs & towed radar decoys offers a great level of stealth too.....

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Also, if F414 and F404 run on same dry thrust of 54kN,

I doubt this. F 414 has some 66 KN dry thrust. Had what you said been truth, MTOW of of Tejas Mk2 which is going to use F414 would not have been 17.5 tons.

 

[Kshithij]

I doubt this. F 414 has some 66 KN dry thrust. Had what you said been truth, MTOW of of Tejas Mk2 which is going to use F414 would not have been 17.5 tons.

When did I say that F414 has maximum dry thrust of 54kN? F414 has maximum dry thrust of 58kN. But it can run at lower than that. Just because your car has maximum speed of 100kmph does not mean you always run at that speed, right? So, what I said was that if F414 ran at 54kN and F404 also ran at 54kN, then F404 will be more efficient.

By the way, Kaveri will have 61-62kN dry thrust and will give performance similar to M53 but with more fuel efficiency

 

[ersakthivel]

I don't believe in the obsolescence of Tejas Mk2 either, but should nutjob like you have to sneak in a bit of your idiocy into every comment?

Stealth fighters cannot operate without other stealth UCAV spotters? What a moron!
Ever heard of IRST?

What is the range of IRST?

If IRST gives you same reliable detection & shooting range under all weather conditions,
as ASEA radars does , then stealth fighter are no longer stealth.


Every 4th gen fighter can use IRST to track 5th gen.

MosyM long range BVRMs in present day 5th gen stealths are radar guided,


So 5th gens too hv to use radars for long range engagement.


If they switch on the radar , they are no longer stealth.

So who is the nut job here??

A guy who argues stuffing tejad with

300 KG excess weight engine (with lower engineTWR than that of GE404!!)

For 20 percent extra thrust ,

On tejas

Or

Me??

 

[HariPrasad-1]

When did I say that F414 has maximum dry thrust of 54kN?

Ok

So, what I said was that if F414 ran at 54kN and F404 also ran at 54kN, then F404 will be more efficient.

No, here I disagree with you. Since 414 is almost of same dimension and additional thrust partly comes from higher compression ratio. F 414 is always more fuel efficient for particular power output whether it be 54 kn or less. F414 has dry thrust of 66 KN and not 58 KN. with 58 KN dry thrust, You can never achieve a figure of 17.5 ton MTOW.

 

[Kshithij]

No, here I disagree with you. Since 414 is almost of same dimension and additional thrust partly comes from higher compression ratio. F 414 is always more fuel efficient for particular power output whether it be 54 kn or less. F414 has dry thrust of 66 KN and not 58 KN. with 58 KN dry thrust, You can never achieve a figure of 17.5 ton MTOW.

What are you saying man? Tejas MK2 will be using Kaveri engine, not F414. F414 is for prototype testing only.