ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[BON PLAN]

The temp requirements is 1800 degree Celsius which is 400 Celsius more than the M88.

Thrust is a question of temperature, but not only.
There is different option, by design, to abtain a thrust. By a greater core you can have the desiderated power.

And.... M88 is one of the hotest operational engine of the world. Next gen is to come.

 

[cyclops]

"Aviators have traditionally been a haughty breed.
They are used to spending solitary hours with their machines, aloof, on top of the world, far removed from its mundane troubles.
Everything that seemed important on terra firma becomes so much smaller.

In the cockpit, few things can humble this pride.

The mountains can.

When you fly at the roof of the world and still have impassive peaks of the mighty Himalayas look down on you at Flight Level 200, your perspective changes.
The experience of air warfare in mountains teaches stern lessons.
The aviators must respect the mountains."

---- An IAF Mirage 2000 pilot who flew in the Kargil war..

The trainer is seen here flying among the Himalayan mountains.
We are sure, Tejas too offers the similar feelings to all the test pilots who have flown her among those icy mountains.
We dedicate this image to all the test pilots from IAF and IN.

Jai Hind..

#LCATejas #TejasLCA #HAL #ADA #IAF

 

[no smoking]

My very first position was :
Phase 1 : Safran help by adapting the M88 hot core to the cold indian part. With a 100% french made hot core (so no quality problem, no indian supply chain problem either).

Adapting a hot core? This step alone will take years to re-qualify the core, which means you have to go through every test again. I haven't even included the re-design time.

Then, after putting French hot core and Indian cold part together, you get a new engine which is not neither M88, nor Kaveri. So you have go through every engine trial from ground test to high altitude test once again.

 

[binayak95]

"Aviators have traditionally been a haughty breed.
They are used to spending solitary hours with their machines, aloof, on top of the world, far removed from its mundane troubles.
Everything that seemed important on terra firma becomes so much smaller.

In the cockpit, few things can humble this pride.

The mountains can.

When you fly at the roof of the world and still have impassive peaks of the mighty Himalayas look down on you at Flight Level 200, your perspective changes.
The experience of air warfare in mountains teaches stern lessons.
The aviators must respect the mountains."

---- An IAF Mirage 2000 pilot who flew in the Kargil war..

This quote comes from the report "Airpower at 18000 Ft" which assesses the IAF's performance during the Kargil War. A very recommended read.

http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/20/airpower-at-18-000-indian-air-force-in-kargil-war-pub-49421

 

[Kshithij]

Adapting a hot core? This step alone will take years to re-qualify the core, which means you have to go through every test again. I haven't even included the re-design time.

Then, after putting French hot core and Indian cold part together, you get a new engine which is not neither M88, nor Kaveri. So you have go through every engine trial from ground test to high altitude test once again.

I agree with this. Engine parts works in sync with each other. The parts are not plug and play that you get hot part from M88 and cold part from F414 and you simply combine them. Also, M88 is too small to get the thrust of even 90kN. Increasing thrust is not simply scaling the engine by increasing dimensions.

@BON PLAN is saying anything out of his behind. @BON PLAN are you out of PLAN?

 

[BON PLAN]

I agree with this. Engine parts works in sync with each other. The parts are not plug and play that you get hot part from M88 and cold part from F414 and you simply combine them. Also, M88 is too small to get the thrust of even 90kN. Increasing thrust is not simply scaling the engine by increasing dimensions.

@BON PLAN is saying anything out of his behind. @BON PLAN are you out of PLAN?

I'm only a french man ! Stay calm

My understanding about M88 engine came for exemple from a long discussion with the chief engineer of M88 program, called André BARBOT, the father of a friend of mine. He was involved in the M88 from the begginning to 1991 if I remember well.

The hardest part of a fighter engine is the hot core. Once you have it, and don't want to use one made for a 10 tons engine to built a new 20 tons one, it's easier.

The M88 effort was mainly on the hot core : new hot materials, new producing technics of this materials (because to develop it in laboratory is one thing, to produce an industrial regular quality one is another) , Engine supervision (= "FADEC"), simulation tools, machining, fine tuning... It takes 10 years with highly skilled peoples and laboratories.

And to illustrate that, just see how "easy" it was to developp the A400M turboprop from the M88 hot core. Because the core of the engine was existing.

 

[BON PLAN]

I agree with this. Engine parts works in sync with each other. The parts are not plug and play that you get hot part from M88 and cold part from F414 and you simply combine them. Also, M88 is too small to get the thrust of even 90kN. Increasing thrust is not simply scaling the engine by increasing dimensions.

@BON PLAN is saying anything out of his behind. @BON PLAN are you out of PLAN?

The SAAB Viggen engine was made using a US hot core and an indigenous cold part.... Not a french "specialty" my dear. And not a fantasm of mine.

 

[Steven Rogers]

???
M88 was, from the beginning, studied so as to developp from 75Kn to 105Kn. The main difference is diameter.

Unstable at 105kN, and I guess the core was tested not the engine.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[BON PLAN]

Unstable at 105kN, and I guess the core was tested not the engine.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

Unstable ? Give me please a proper source? (you can't...)

In fact, the M88 was tested up to 115Kn....

and, as said previously, the core is the main componant. Once you have it, the rest is peace of cake (for the 6 top fighter engine maker. maybe not for the nooby...)

 

[Kshithij]

Unstable ? Give me please a proper source? (you can't...)

In fact, the M88 was tested up to 115Kn....

and, as said previously, the core is the main componant. Once you have it, the rest is peace of cake (for the 6 top fighter engine maker. maybe not for the nooby...)

The core has diameter fixed. You can't make it go till 115kN if it is not big enough

 

[Steven Rogers]

Unstable ? Give me please a proper source? (you can't...)

In fact, the M88 was tested up to 115Kn....

and, as said previously, the core is the main componant. Once you have it, the rest is peace of cake (for the 6 top fighter engine maker. maybe not for the nooby...)

[emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] M88 with that size, small air mass flow makes even smaller bypass ratio, and smaller overall compression ratio than the required , it certainly is not possible within the technical terms. The engine is itself smaller to fit on Rafale and increase in the parameters without massive redesign will cause damage to the engine itself.
Care to provide the technical source of that 11. 5tons of thrust fiasco.

 

[BON PLAN]

The core has diameter fixed. You can't make it go till 115kN if it is not big enough

M88 was studed as a familly.
3 brothers : 75Kn, 90Kn, 105Kn.
Same technology, same architecture, 3 diameters and lenght

 

[BON PLAN]

[emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] M88 with that size, small air mass flow makes even smaller bypass ratio, and smaller overall compression ratio than the required , it certainly is not possible within the technical terms. The engine is itself smaller to fit on Rafale and increase in the parameters without massive redesign will cause damage to the engine itself.
Care to provide the technical source of that 11. 5tons of thrust fiasco.

As said just before :
3 diameters.
It's why when the UAE needed a 9T M88 in the Rafale it cost so much : Dassault had to modify the frame of the Rafale so as to fit the 2nd brother of the family, bigger than the 75Kn one.

SAFRAN is a little bit more clever than you imagine not to use a 50cm3 motor cycle engine to developp 250 horse power

 

[Kshithij]

As said just before :
3 diameters.
It's why when the UAE needed a 9T M88 in the Rafale it cost so much : Dassault had to modify the frame of the Rafale so as to fit the 2nd brother of the family, bigger than the 75Kn one.

SAFRAN is a little bit more clever than you imagine not to use a 50cm3 motor cycle engine to developp 250 horse power

So, Safran already had 90kN engine and yet they did not make a single plane around it? They could have made another variant of rafale for longer range, higher maneuverability and launch from STOBAR carriers instead of simply keeping the engine in shelf

 

[leap_x]

Thrust is a question of temperature, but not only.
There is different option, by design, to abtain a thrust. By a greater core you can have the desiderated power.

And.... M88 is one of the hotest operational engine of the world. Next gen is to come.

I'm only a french man ! Stay calm

My understanding about M88 engine came for exemple from a long discussion with the chief engineer of M88 program, called André BARBOT, the father of a friend of mine. He was involved in the M88 from the begginning to 1991 if I remember well.

The hardest part of a fighter engine is the hot core. Once you have it, and don't want to use one made for a 10 tons engine to built a new 20 tons one, it's easier.

The M88 effort was mainly on the hot core : new hot materials, new producing technics of this materials (because to develop it in laboratory is one thing, to produce an industrial regular quality one is another) , Engine supervision (= "FADEC"), simulation tools, machining, fine tuning... It takes 10 years with highly skilled peoples and laboratories.

And to illustrate that, just see how "easy" it was to developp the A400M turboprop from the M88 hot core. Because the core of the engine was existing.

I also remember the core is used on SAM-146 for SSJ-100. But to be honest, easy or difficult depends on how you want the core to work. If less fuel is ejected into the core, the speed and temperature will decrease,thus you have a core engine with much longer life/cycle；then fit the core with a LPT making the best of core exhaust to drive a bigger fan,you will get a more fuel-efficient high bypass ratio turbine-fan.Basically that is what happen to CFM56(sharing core engine with F101) and SAM-146.
But if you want to have more energy out of core,that means higher temperature,higher speed,higher pressure, things will go another way for the core.

 

[darshan978]

do you think it's only a question of blood and guts?
A little bit complicated...

and plz dont link your m88 with kaveri our kaveri is and will be indians there is no way m88 or its core can be fitted in kaveri as both engine are different and dont try to discredit gtre we have now solved all problems on kaveri and soon it will be flying with no outside help

 

[MrPresident]

If GTRE have resolved all the issues then why are they not flying Tejas with Kaveri???

In a longer run may be we can have our own core and 100% indigenous engine. But as of now we have to make do with M88 core.

and plz dont link your m88 with kaveri our kaveri is and will be indians there is no way m88 or its core can be fitted in kaveri as both engine are different and dont try to discredit gtre we have now solved all problems on kaveri and soon it will be flying with no outside help

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[Kshithij]

If GTRE have resolved all the issues then why are they not flying Tejas with Kaveri???

In a longer run may be we can have our own core and 100% indigenous engine. But as of now we have to make do with M88 core.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Do you even know how engines work? Who told you that we can take core from Russian engine and then use it using American cold parts? cores are not plug and play. Just like you can't use the wheel of a bike on a cycle or use a Mercedes benz engine in Maruti alto, core also has the same problems.

Next, when did M88 be tested in a light for 90kN thrust? Why don't you put this question?

About Kaveri not being used in Tejas, that is because it is not yet ready and is being readied. Kaveri will be ready only in 2019.

 

[BON PLAN]

So, Safran already had 90kN engine and yet they did not make a single plane around it? They could have made another variant of rafale for longer range, higher maneuverability and launch from STOBAR carriers instead of simply keeping the engine in shelf

It's not so easy to say : we will developp a new bigger Rafale plane so as to flight test my new engine !
It costs a lot.
The next futur is a 83Kn M88, in the same shape and weight of the actual Rafale one so as to fit in without change.

 

[BON PLAN]

I also remember the core is used on SAM-146 for SSJ-100.

? I realy don't know. Are you sure?