ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[zebra7]

Astra mk1 already has buddy mode firing.

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Negative, only in mk2. Check your source and check the mk2 poster by drdo

 

[Steven Rogers]

Negative, only in mk2. Check your source and check the mk2 poster by drdo

Look at the poster by DRDO.

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[rohit b3]

Tejas Mark 1A faces delay as air force adds to demands
While some of these systems can be bought off the shelf, integrating these on to the Tejas would require comprehensive redesign of the fighter's mission computer
Ajai Shukla | Bengaluru Last Updated at May 19, 2018 01:42 IST


A key reason for delays in indigenous weaponry such as the Tejas fighter and Arjun tank has been the military’s tendency to repeatedly enhance specifications, preventing weapon systems from leaving the drawing board and entering production.

This is now happening with the Tejas Mark 1A fighter.It was to enter production in 2020-21 with five specific enhancements. But, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has demanded additional features and the fighter could be entering a time-consuming development spiral that takes another three to four years.

Tejas Mark 1A was conceived specifically to bring the Tejas into production. In early 2015, the IAF, defence ministry and Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) agreed it could enter mass production as soon as HAL incorporated five improvements. Namely, an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, an electronic warfare (EW) suite, a self-protection jammer, mid-air refuelling capability and easier maintainability.

With this clear map, the ministry sanctioned the building of 83 Tejas Mark 1A fighters last December for an estimated Rs 330 billion.

Now, however, the IAF has added to that wish list. Among several additional demands are: “smart multi-function displays” for the cockpit, a “combined interrogator and transponder” to differentiate friendly aircraft from foes, a digital map generator and an improved radio altimeter.

While some of these systems can be bought off the shelf, integrating these on to the Tejas would require comprehensive redesign of the fighter’s mission computer. HAL estimates doing so and integrating the additional software could take up to three to four years.

“The existing ‘open architecture mission computer’ cannot support the software upgrades that are now needed for the Tejas Mark 1A”, says HAL chairman, T Suvarna Raju.

With HAL planning to deliver the 40 Tejas Mark 1 fighters currently on order by mid-2020, the Mark 1A must enter final assembly by that date. Before that, two years are needed for building the systems and assemblies that come together on the final assembly line.

This schedule requires the IAF to contract for the Tejas Mark 1A by mid-2018. That order is still awaited.

“The time line is certainly important from the IAF’s operational perspective. But, it is equally important from the standpoint of industrial production”, a HAL manager told Business Standard during a visit to the Tejas production line.

Another question: who will re-design the Tejas’ mission computer? The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), a Defence R&D Organisation entity, designed the current version. “We have extensive experience, having designed mission computers for the Jaguar, Mirage and, more recently, the Hawk-i trainer. Furthermore, we are responsible for the Tejas Mark 1A project and time lines and would not like to be dependent on an external entity”, says Raju.

Worldwide, aircraft designers (ADA in this case) cede control to the manufacturer (HAL in this case), which is subsequently responsible for supporting the users (IAF), through spares, overhauls and upgrades during an aircraft’s service life cycle.

With both ADA and HAL keen on re-designing the Tejas’ mission computer, the former argues it is already developing a more powerful mission computer for the Tejas Mark 2. HAL, however, counters that the Mark 2 will be a decade in the making, ADA is targeting 2025 – while the Mark 1A has much tighter time lines.

HAL officials say they are on track with the original requirements of the Tejas Mark 1A. In December, global tenders were floated for the AESA radar and EW suite. Three companies have responded, Elta of Israel, Saab of Sweden and Thales of France. The winner is likely to be announced soon.

Meanwhile, the Tejas has already been installed with air-to-air refuelling capability, and maintainability improvements are almost complete. In the recently concluded IAF Exercise Gaganshakti, eight Tejas fighters participated with credit, consistently flying six sorties each per day and drawing praise from the air force.



Next the IAF would want a 120mm smoothbore gun on the Tejas , or they would not place orders.

 

[aditya10r]

Next the IAF would want a 120mm smoothbore gun on the Tejas , or they would not place orders

And ability to shoot down ICBM and have laser guns.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[patriots]

And ability to shoot down ICBM and have laser guns.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

hmm those people will blame ada and hal...for
delay too
......................................................................

 

[LordOfTheUnderworlds]

Tejas Mark 1A faces delay as air force adds to demands
While some of these systems can be bought off the shelf, integrating these on to the Tejas would require comprehensive redesign of the fighter's mission computer
Ajai Shukla | Bengaluru Last Updated at May 19, 2018 01:42 IST


A key reason for delays in indigenous weaponry such as the Tejas fighter and Arjun tank has been the military’s tendency to repeatedly enhance specifications, preventing weapon systems from leaving the drawing board and entering production.

This is now happening with the Tejas Mark 1A fighter.It was to enter production in 2020-21 with five specific enhancements. But, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has demanded additional features and the fighter could be entering a time-consuming development spiral that takes another three to four years.

Tejas Mark 1A was conceived specifically to bring the Tejas into production. In early 2015, the IAF, defence ministry and Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) agreed it could enter mass production as soon as HAL incorporated five improvements. Namely, an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, an electronic warfare (EW) suite, a self-protection jammer, mid-air refuelling capability and easier maintainability.

With this clear map, the ministry sanctioned the building of 83 Tejas Mark 1A fighters last December for an estimated Rs 330 billion.

Now, however, the IAF has added to that wish list. Among several additional demands are: “smart multi-function displays” for the cockpit, a “combined interrogator and transponder” to differentiate friendly aircraft from foes, a digital map generator and an improved radio altimeter.

While some of these systems can be bought off the shelf, integrating these on to the Tejas would require comprehensive redesign of the fighter’s mission computer. HAL estimates doing so and integrating the additional software could take up to three to four years.

“The existing ‘open architecture mission computer’ cannot support the software upgrades that are now needed for the Tejas Mark 1A”, says HAL chairman, T Suvarna Raju.

With HAL planning to deliver the 40 Tejas Mark 1 fighters currently on order by mid-2020, the Mark 1A must enter final assembly by that date. Before that, two years are needed for building the systems and assemblies that come together on the final assembly line.

This schedule requires the IAF to contract for the Tejas Mark 1A by mid-2018. That order is still awaited.

“The time line is certainly important from the IAF’s operational perspective. But, it is equally important from the standpoint of industrial production”, a HAL manager told Business Standard during a visit to the Tejas production line.

Another question: who will re-design the Tejas’ mission computer? The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), a Defence R&D Organisation entity, designed the current version. “We have extensive experience, having designed mission computers for the Jaguar, Mirage and, more recently, the Hawk-i trainer. Furthermore, we are responsible for the Tejas Mark 1A project and time lines and would not like to be dependent on an external entity”, says Raju.

Worldwide, aircraft designers (ADA in this case) cede control to the manufacturer (HAL in this case), which is subsequently responsible for supporting the users (IAF), through spares, overhauls and upgrades during an aircraft’s service life cycle.

With both ADA and HAL keen on re-designing the Tejas’ mission computer, the former argues it is already developing a more powerful mission computer for the Tejas Mark 2. HAL, however, counters that the Mark 2 will be a decade in the making, ADA is targeting 2025 – while the Mark 1A has much tighter time lines.

HAL officials say they are on track with the original requirements of the Tejas Mark 1A. In December, global tenders were floated for the AESA radar and EW suite. Three companies have responded, Elta of Israel, Saab of Sweden and Thales of France. The winner is likely to be announced soon.

Meanwhile, the Tejas has already been installed with air-to-air refuelling capability, and maintainability improvements are almost complete. In the recently concluded IAF Exercise Gaganshakti, eight Tejas fighters participated with credit, consistently flying six sorties each per day and drawing praise from the air force.



Next the IAF would want a 120mm smoothbore gun on the Tejas , or they would not place orders.

Whats problem in doing it as Mk1B Mk1C, Mk1D Mk1E etc without delaying induction of first batch?

 

[rohit b3]

Whats problem in doing it as Mk1B Mk1C, Mk1D Mk1E etc without delaying induction of first batch?

They are trying to get that MMRCA deal through for the kickbacks.
1. Delay Tejas by adding new requirements last moment.
2. Keep crying that you are short of fighters.
3. Push for imports cause HAL is too slow.

 

[rohit b3]

A brief history of Tejas induction since its first flight.

1. First Flight in 2001 . IAF immediately decides that the fighter is not good enough, based on the first prototype , and asks Govt. to import

2. Nevertheless , HAL continues with new prototypes and successful test flights one after the other. Reluctantly after hundreds of successful flights of 5 prototypes, IAF places an order for 20 fighters. Yes, a whole 20!

3. Meanwhile Govt. issues a RFI for the MMRCA competition.

4. Meanwhile as the prototypes seemed to complete most of the basic trials, IAF gets nervous as it inches closer to induction. So IAF demands for features to which Limited Series Production Aircraft would be needed for testing.

4. HAL continues test flights with 7 prototypes and 2 LSP aircraft till 2009 and the IAF has to place order for 20 more fighters! Taking the order to 40 in 2010.

5. With over 1000 flawless test flights, Tejas seemed to be ready for induction in 2011 with the IOC. But no! The IAF wanted more features and turned that "IOC" into "IOC-1" . Now they would induct with those features after "IOC-2".

6. Meanwhile in 2012, the IAF chose the Rafale and is getting excited to fill their pockets with that deal!

7. Finally with "IOC-2" in 2013 , Tejas has to be inducted. Now with 40 on order , the IAF wants HAL to deliver at 16 a year, or they will import.

8. However back on the ground, the realistic scenario, HAL starts a small manufacturing line in 2014 and builds 2 Tejas and hands them over in early 2015. With 40 on order the small manufacturing lines continue to function to build 2-3 Tejas a year at the start.

9. 2016 Parrikar enters the game and brings up the Tejas mk1A and forces 83 Tejas mk1A on the Airforce. Meanwhile cancelling the whole MMRCA contract! Sweet!

10. 2017, HAL picks up the production , and starts working on the Tejas mk1A. IAF also issues request for 83 Tejas mk1A, which HAL replies to within 2 months.

11. 2018, No official orders placed yet, and asking for additional features over the previously agreed one. IAF again issues RFI for foreign fighters.

 

[AnantS]

I think Map generator and better radio altitude are genuine demands. I mean SAAB Gripen, JF-17 and even Dhruv have Map Generator. HAL should not have problem in providing one. Better MFD's is something that can be looked in MK 2.

 

[Kshithij]

I think Map generator and better radio altitude are genuine demands. I mean SAAB Gripen, JF-17 and even Dhruv have Map Generator. HAL should not have problem in providing one. Better MFD's is something that can be looked in MK 2.

Yes, they are google map features too. Even android phone has some altitude measurement, compass etc

 

[G10]

Those blaming IAF for the LCA delay should also say something about the gun. It has not been tested yet and was it an addition or first requirement?

 

[Kshithij]

Those blaming IAF for the LCA delay should also say something about the gun. It has not been tested yet and was it an addition or first requirement?

Gun is not very useful. Also, ground test has been done. Nowadays, guns are rarely used. I don't think Rafale has any guns on them. It will be unfair to demand it on Tejas

 

[Steven Rogers]

Gun is not very useful. Also, ground test has been done. Nowadays, guns are rarely used. I don't think Rafale has any guns on them. It will be unfair to demand it on Tejas

Rafale has so as Tejas needs gun.

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[rohit b3]

Actually yes, Gun is definitely a necessary, especially for an interceptor role , and Rafale does have a 30mm gun as well.
There are several challenges in front of HAL and HAL isnt perfect either. But my point is, the IAF is purposely making the life more difficult for HAL and in turn destroying India's aerospace industry, just to fill its own pockets.

 

[Kchontha]

Rafale has NEXTER 30M791 30 mm internal cannon. Gun firing while in flight is one of the Tejas FOC requirements. The Gsh-23L gun manufactured by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has already cleared ground trial on the LSP-7. Whereas Tejas MK1-A is a optimized version of Tejas MK1 aircraft which will fit between Tejas MK1 and Tejas MK2 . The required changes includes integration of AESA radar, weight reduction, making the aircraft maintenance friendly by re-configuring some of its LRUs and proper distribution of the dead weight in the aircraft, in-flight refueling capability, and integration of electro-optic Electronic Warfare (EW) sensor.

 

[cannonfodder]

On BR, I had read that gun integration is included in FOC requirement not the entire certification/trial of gun. Similarly entire certification of air to air refueling will be done after FOC.

This is what Indranil had said:
"No. It has got nothing to do with the fighter. Let's leave it at that. The tests have been postponed for now. AFAIK, it has been delinked from FOC."
https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=7368&start=2760

What I think is priority right now is MK1 FOC from ADA/HAL and follow up with more orders on FOC MK1 to keep the production line busy till Mk1A is ready.

 

[G10]

A soldier always carries a gun. Bombs dont replace gun. Guns are here to stay as basic requirement whether for soldier or combat aircraft or a combat ship.

 

[Pandeyji]

Next the IAF would want a 120mm smoothbore gun on the Tejas , or they would not place orders.

That too in olive green colour with shades of slate

Those blaming IAF for the LCA delay should also say something about the gun. It has not been tested yet and was it an addition or first requirement?

Gun trial was to happen last year. But then the IAF pushed it back for other important trials. Now it would happen in June/July.

 

[patriots]

ifr is to be done first .....wait till July end. . .they had said that they will complete foc till July end

and ifr before June end(if I am correct)

again if hal is saying that they can upgrade ioc variant s to foc and foc variant s mk1a....then why you are not inducting more foc ...till mk1a comes... which will be later upgraded...to mk1a ....

 

[Chinmoy]

ifr is to be done first .....wait till July end. . .they had said that they will complete foc till July end

and ifr before June end(if I am correct)

again if hal is saying that they can upgrade ioc variant s to foc and foc variant s mk1a....then why you are not inducting more foc ...till mk1a comes... which will be later upgraded...to mk1a ....

There is some basic reason behind it. Time and Cost.

If IAF start inducting more and more FOC version to be upgraded later on, it would impact the overall cost factor of the project. Now upgrading itself would consume around a quarter of year and after tests would consume another 2 to 3 months. It means again absence of asset on field. 123 overall numbers were ordered keeping this in mind. Now unless IAF goes for more, upgradation of any more FOC to Mk1A standard would be futile.