ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Sancho]

Yet you go around ob all social medua forums that Tejas fell short of this ASR that ASR all the time.

Because that's a fact! You "choose" to ignore that, because you don't like to hear it, but that doesn't make them magically go away. That's why you always will fall short in a proper discussion about Tejas, because you only see your imaginary picture of it, but that's not how the IAF sees it and that's not how it can help to protect the country.

IAF is not getting 100 MMRCAs in thus life.

For once you might be right and let's hope that the country doesn't pay the price for being weak. Dreams and imagination won't protect us!

 

[Sancho]

In that case at same time, Rafale F4, Gripen E EFT tranche 3 will be entering service, what will we they, "outdated" birds.

No they won't, because they offer more advanced systems (radar, EW, avionics...), better flight performance, more load capabilities...

Tejas will never offer comparable systems or performance, simply by the fact that "by design", it offers less capabilities than any MMRCA.

 

[Kshithij]

No they won't, because they offer more advanced systems (radar, EW, avionics...), better flight performance, more load capabilities...

Tejas will never offer comparable systems or performance, simply by the fact that "by design", it offers less capabilities than any MMRCA.

In what parameters are the avionicw, EW or radar advanced? Give out the details of the advancement.

You are speaking of LCA MK2 when you are comparing with future planes like Gripen E, Rafale F4, EFT3. So, tell me which design parameters are you speaking of in LCA MK2 that makes it inferior. Be specific

 

[Steven Rogers]

No they won't, because they offer more advanced systems (radar, EW, avionics...), better flight performance, more load capabilities...

Tejas will never offer comparable systems or performance, simply by the fact that "by design", it offers less capabilities than any MMRCA.

"Hilarious reason"... Neither rafale nor EFT typhoon currently offer "the radar, the EW, avionics" which can meet AF requirements, their are various changes in the above recommended by the air force. Now comes Radar, the radar itself is made on requirement of the air force, while air force suggested the same to French, comes EW, the EW on tejas offers much wider frequency succeptibilty than the Rafale with equivalent pulse per second calculation of spectra, where it lags???.
Tejas will be offering comparable system with the performance of a mid combat aircraft, given the fact, it is developed to replace Mig29upg and Mirage 2000 in the next decade.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[Sancho]

Ouch.....

Was meant as a general statement, not specifically about you, sorry if it came out the wrong way.

While newspapers are now-a-days not so reliable, excuse me for thinking that IAF was finding excuses with LCA.

When you don't put it into proper context, you can get to such wrong conclusions. The issue was, that the government is trying to find alternative fighter deals, than the MMRCA procurement. That's why Parrikar initially suggested more MKIs, or why NSA Doval last year tried to push LCAs instead of SE MMRCAs. But in both cases, IAF remained firm to their nearly 2 decades old requirement of medium class fighters!
And in both cases, the government had no choice than issuing new MMRCA tenders. First the SE MMRCA and now the MMRCA 2.0.

So once again, IAF wants LCA, but according to it's performance and capabilities, as the low end of the fleet, with MMRCAs and MKIs above it!

Sir, the same IAF inducted aircraft with far less capabilities earlier with open arms (both Russian and Western)

But when? In times when fighters in general were not capable as they are today, when IAF only considered 1 border line as a threat and when IAF had clear numerical and technological superiority. That's not the case anymore and Tejas as it is today (IOC standard), can't even replace a Mig 21 in air defence and is a single role strike fighter. So this is not a small capability gap, but a major one, which the FOC can only partly fix. It's not enough to look at the total requirement for fighters and make up Tejas as the sole solution for everything, just because it's an indigenous fighter. Beyond the hype around it, there are operational requirements for Tejas itself and also of the IAF fleet in general, that need to be met and not simply ignored like many Tejas fans do.

IAF must look at the defence ecosystem and actively participate in it. If IAF is not involved with the development of a fighters to suit the requirements of the country, then they better defend the country with what they are given.

100% Agree, but we still have to be realistic about our industrial capabilites. Even if IAF gets involved, it doesn't mean that we can design and develop a useful fighter. The Tejas programme has showed us plenty of limitations of our aviation industry. And while IN was involved in NLCA, they rightly opted against it, because it neither fit to their time lines, or operational requirements, nor was it realistic for ADA to develop a suitable naval fighter in the first place.

That's why I said before...

- we need to get the forces involved
- we need to leave the project management to the production agency, be it HAL or a private partner
- we need to choose foreign development partners from scratch, to counter our shortfalls
- and we need to have a rational view on the project and it's time lines.

That's what learning from the mistakes means and not just blaming each other.

 

[Sancho]

"Hilarious reason"... Neither rafale nor EFT typhoon currently offer "the radar, the EW, avionics" which can meet AF requirements, their are various changes in the above recommended by the air force. Now comes Radar, the radar itself is made on requirement of the air force, while air force suggested the same to French, comes EW, the EW on tejas offers much wider frequency succeptibilty than the Rafale with equivalent pulse per second calculation of spectra, where it lags???.
Tejas will be offering comparable system with the performance of a mid combat aircraft, given the fact, it is developed to replace Mig29upg and Mirage 2000 in the next decade.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

Lol typical fanboy nonsense. You confuse Indian specific customisations with design limitations of a fighter.

Tejas is a small fighter and even if it has a decent nose diameter for the light class, the AESA of MK1A will be smaller than any MMRCAs (around 700 T/R modules vs 1000 to 1400 for MMRCAs).
So even in the only technological field where Tejas offers comparable techs, it remains inferior in performance by design!

EW, where any modern fighter carries the SPJ internally, Tejas is limited to external carriage. Let alone that most modern fighters come with IR MAWS, or LWR integrated as well, which both are not available, mainly because of space limitations by it's small design!

Flight performance/weapon load/range..., all fields where it simply has no scope to offer the same performance unless you make major re-designs and changes and from all available MK2 designs and specs, that's simply not the case.

You also confuse replacing M2K and Mig 29 with equal capability, which is wrong too. Because replacing only means, that they will be phased out, in the same time frame that LCA MK2 and hopefully an MMRCA will be inducted.

We are currently phasing out Mig 21s and inducting Tejas MK1s, but not a single Mig will be replaced by Tejas on the MIG bases. On paper we are adding 2 squads, but not where a Mig 21 was stationed and so far not for their roles either, since it only has strike capabilities certified.

So replacement is not a 1 on 1 issue and mainly dependents on the threat perception and the operational needs of IAF. You are highly mistaken if you believe that IAF would replace nuclear capable M2Ks with Tejas. Even as a fan, you can't be that kind of unrealistic!

Hyping Tejas like this is exactly the problem, because expectations rise to levels that a small and light fighter can't deliver. It was never meant to be a high performance or advanced fighter!

 

[Steven Rogers]

Lol typical fanboy nonsense. You confuse Indian specific customisations with design limitations of a fighter.

Tejas is a small fighter and even if it has a decent nose diameter for the light class, the AESA of MK1A will be smaller than any MMRCAs (around 700 T/R modules vs 1000 to 1400 for MMRCAs).
So even in the only technological field where Tejas offers comparable techs, it remains inferior in performance by design!

EW, where any modern fighter carries the SPJ internally, Tejas is limited to external carriage. Let alone that most modern fighters come with IR MAWS, or LWR integrated as well, which both are not available, mainly because of space limitations by it's small design!

Flight performance/weapon load/range..., all fields where it simply has no scope to offer the same performance unless you make major re-designs and changes and from all available MK2 designs and specs, that's simply not the case.

You also confuse replacing M2K and Mig 29 with equal capability, which is wrong too. Because replacing only means, that they will be phased out, in the same time frame that LCA MK2 and hopefully an MMRCA will be inducted.

We are currently phasing out Mig 21s and inducting Tejas MK1s, but not a single Mig will be replaced by Tejas. On paper we are adding 2 squads, but not where a Mig 21 was stationed and so far not for their roles either, since it only has strike capabilities certified.

So replacement is not a 1 on 1 issue and mainly dependents on the threat perception and the operational needs of IAF. You are highly mistaken if you believe that IAF would replace nuclear capable M2Ks with Tejas. Even as a fan, you can't be that kind of unrealistic!

Hyping Tejas like this is exactly the problem, because expectations rise to levels that a small and light fighter can't deliver. It was never meant to be a high performance or advanced fighter!

Hilarious, stupid and funny claims and replies..... Tejas nose diameter(650mm) is greater than Rafale (625mm),but that's one case, the other one is you claimed tejas mk2 to be obsolete, and so did I responded in that context not in mk1a context. Now comes specification to mk2, the air force chief, ADA Chief, drdo chief, they separately said that tejas "mk2" will be a medium category aircraft not light, and will be replacing Mirage 2000 and Mig29s, one source confirmed the wind tunnel testing of Canards with mk2 design so definitely they made major design changes, cause earlier design was 0.5mt long which can offer space for canard . We are replacing Migs(all of them with Tejas only). One squadron will be stationed at sulur(replacing the Mig27 squadron there) while the next foc batch will replace forward mig21s, as mig21s are "no" match to tejas mk1 foc. "it's never meant to be a high performance........ " go and read ASR, Publications and airforce on tejas, they wanted an air superiority multirole aircraft.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[Kshithij]

IAF remained firm to their nearly 2 decades old requirement of medium class fighters!
And in both cases, the government had no choice than issuing new MMRCA tenders. First the SE MMRCA and now the MMRCA 2.0.

IAF does not determine which fighters to buy. If it was big fighters needed, one must have bought Su30. The MMRCA was a strategic deal rather than IAF's insistence. IAF has no right to demand anything.

So once again, IAF wants LCA, but according to it's
performance and capabilities, as the low end of the fleet, with MMRCAs and MKIs above it!

Low end in terms of what? LCA MK1A is short ranged fighter and not meant for longer range. But short range does not mean lower end. Range is not quality. If we are speaking of MK2, things are different altogether.

Tejas as it is today (IOC standard), can't even replace a Mig 21 in air defence and is a single role strike fighter.

This is only according to you. There is no evidence for that. Tejas has been tested with LGB and other strike missiles along with BVR missiles. That much is enough to disprove this.

Tejas programme has showed us plenty of limitations of our aviation industry

Such as? You don't like its colour?

- we need to get the forces involved
- we need to leave the project management to the production agency, be it HAL or a private partner
- we need to choose foreign development partners from scratch, to counter our shortfalls
- and we need to have a rational view on the project and it's time lines.

How is production agency related to development? Technology is developed by scientists and production is done by engineers. This is common sense.

Foreign development partner for what? We might as well clone foreign planes if that was the case. Indian planes will be made for Indian conditions. We don't need the metal frame design of F16, F15, F18 etc. We are better off getting our own design. Foreign partners don't give ToT just because you call them partners. If ToT was so easy, Saudi Arabia would be hiring lot of foreign partners by now.

 

[Sancho]

the other one is you claimed tejas mk2 to be obsolete, and so did I responded in that context not in mk1a context.

Wrong, I explained it's obsolete because it neither offers any of the advanced capabilities of the MMRCAs, the MK1A was only wrt the AESA, since that is the only capability that Tejas will have in common with MMRCAs and we don't have to wait for MK2 for that.

Now comes specification to mk2, the air force chief, ADA Chief, drdo chief, they separately said that tejas "mk2" will be a medium category aircraft not light, and will be replacing Mirage 2000 and Mig29s

Medium class = MTOW. So they expect Tejas to be somewhere between 15t and 30t, from it's current around 13t MTOW. But while you concluded that means it must be capability wise as capable as M2K or Mig 29, it only means that the weight will increase and that's not even something new!
We know that the airframe will be extended, we know that it gets additional avionics, we know that the AESA and EW will add even weight to MK1A, we know that payload is meant to be increased, we know that it's meant to get larger MDFs..., => increased MTOW.

But higher load on the same stations, doesn't make it able to carry 6 x AAMs like Mirage 2000-H. Without space in the nose section, it doesn't have IRST like the Mig, it never will have the speed of the M2K or Mig either...and so on.

Try to understand things first and not just jump into conclusions.

One squadron will be stationed at sulur(replacing the Mig27 squadron there)

Are we making stuff up now? :biggrin2:

First LCA Tejas Squadron at Sulur?
Shiv Aroor Mar 17 2007

...It’s been an open secret that the IAF was building a military airfield at Thanjavur for a while now, though it is only now that the IAF has revealed its plans for Sulur. A home to the first delivered squadron of LCA Tejas fighters no less! Two new airfields will come up at the town, work already in progress...

...The fact is the we now have concrete plans of a base coming up — infrastructure and all — to receive the first consignments of the much-anticipated Tejas. Look at the Google Earth grab here of the Sulur base (home to 5 BRD). Visible for now, only a flight of Mi-8 medium lift choppers and a scattering of Clines/Avros...

...If HAL is on a deadline to deliver by 2011, then it makes sense to give the new fighters a taste of the Western and Northern sectors first off, right? Why Sulur, of all the places? Even the North East would be more respectable, in terms of a good place to cut teeth. So does basing the Tejas well away from India’s conventional air conflict theatres undermine faith in the machine? Is the IAF nervous about an aircraft it believes is already obsolete, and will be even more so when it’s delivered? Sounds like it.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2007/03/first-lca-tejas-squadron-at-sulur.html

go and read ASR, Publications and airforce on tejas, they wanted an air superiority multirole aircraft.

Which means an air defence fighter in the class of the Mig 21, with multi role capabilities. Not high end at all, but what they got after years of delays, was a single role strike fighter. You hype it to compete with MMRCAs, but complain about the ASR of the 90s.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Wrong, I explained it's obsolete because it neither offers any of the advanced capabilities of the MMRCAs, the MK1A was only wrt the AESA, since that is the only capability that Tejas will have in common with MMRCAs and we don't have to wait for MK2 for that.



Medium class = MTOW. So they expect Tejas to be somewhere between 15t and 30t, from it's current around 13t MTOW. But while you concluded that means it must be capability wise as capable as M2K or Mig 29, it only means that the weight will increase and that's not even something new!
We know that the airframe will be extended, we know that it gets additional avionics, we know that the AESA and EW will add even weight to MK1A, we know that payload is meant to be increased, we know that it's meant to get larger MDFs..., => increased MTOW.

But higher load on the same stations, doesn't make it able to carry 6 x AAMs like Mirage 2000-H. Without space in the nose section, it doesn't have IRST like the Mig, it never will have the speed of the M2K or Mig either...and so on.

Try to understand things first and not just jump into conclusions.



Are we making stuff up now? :biggrin2:


https://www.livefistdefence.com/2007/03/first-lca-tejas-squadron-at-sulur.html




Which means an air defence fighter in the class of the Mig 21, with multi role capabilities. Not high end at all, but what they got after years of delays, was a single role strike fighter. You hype it to compete with MMRCAs, but complain about the ASR of the 90s.

You did it again, you posted with context to mk2 earlier not mk1.

MTOW=> Max take off weight, that means a medium class aircraft, now no such parameters are set for calling any, but expected MTOW will around 16tons to match the criteria you set. To match Mig29 or Mirage 2000, not only the weight, but size and diameter will be increased with more volume for lrus, and given new lrus are compact as per ADA, it won't take much space to add IRST on mk2(only a prototype will clear that if they are going for a big aperture radar, or compensate the size for IRST, given X band quad TRMs are 10w class it won't take more that 2.5kW avg power output for 1k TRM radar giving the range benchmark can be set of over 200kms for 2m2 target which already is 150kms for 2m2 target ). The radar on tejas with dead block weight already exceeds 100kgees, the EW suite will replace those dead weights which are kept on the aircraft. MK1A also set to get lighter lrus and it will have same MTOW that of mk1.
Now don't run your horses on grassy track, the whole Tapatalk is being done on mk2 airframe not on mk1. And if that's the case, mk1a brochure shown by HAL shows 4 AAM with SPJ, CDT, two 500/1000lbs bombs. Now with that load we will love to see how Mirage takes off from leh. Though we didn't compared mk1 or mk1a with Mirage 2000 which anyway will lose in a dogfight.
Take your loss and keep shut, I didn't put mk1 or mk1a into MMRCA, you did by continously manipulating mk2 with mk1, and air superiority platform has high kinematic performance, tejas does it, it has done superb in actual combat which happen either in high subsonic or supersonic speed, you will not find aerobatic stunts in actual combat and for you need a High performance airframe, tejas in ITR, AOA already exceeds the 90s requirements in ioc standards.
Tejas will be the second to stationed in the Tamil Nadu after Su30mki, so mki is not a combat ready acc to you. Tejas 2nd squadron probably replace Mig27 from Hashimara base.

 

[Sancho]

Tejas will be the second to stationed in the Tamil Nadu after Su30mki, so mki is not a combat ready acc to you. Tejas 2nd squadron probably replace Mig27 from Hashimara base.

Lol you claimed it replaces a Mig 27 at Sulur which didn't exist and that the 2nd squad was meant to replace Mig 21 and now you even changed that to Mig 27 and that at Hashimara, which is widely reported as the first Rafale Base. Man you are making up so much stuff now, that you even confuse yourself. The length people go to distract from their lack of arguments and facts. :biggrin2:

 

[Steven Rogers]

Lol you claimed it replaces a Mig 27 at Sulur which didn't exist and that the 2nd squad was meant to replace Mig 21 and now you even changed that to Mig 27 and that at Hashimara, which is widely reported as the first Rafale Base. Man you are making up so much stuff now, that you even confuse yourself. The length people go to distract from their lack of arguments and facts. :biggrin2:

It was a confusion, squadron 22 is based at Hasimara, which will base rafale, Su30mki is also deployed there. Tejas second squadron "shall be" based there. And didn't I mentioned about Su30 in the Tamil Nadu.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[Steven Rogers]

Lol you claimed it replaces a Mig 27 at Sulur which didn't exist and that the 2nd squad was meant to replace Mig 21 and now you even changed that to Mig 27 and that at Hashimara, which is widely reported as the first Rafale Base. Man you are making up so much stuff now, that you even confuse yourself. The length people go to distract from their lack of arguments and facts. :biggrin2:

It was a confusion, squadron 22 is based at Hasimara, which will base rafale, Su30mki is also deployed there. Tejas second squadron "shall be" based there. And didn't I mentioned about Su30 in the Tamil Nadu. Diff infrastructure has been made for Rafales at hasimara, they are not the part of Mig27 squadron "Swifts". [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] It was proven above that who ran away from facts, and kept blabbering for their shear ignorance, despite the official confirmation, one still blabbers tejas mk2 as an LCA and continues to run on mk1 and mk1a when talks been on mk2. One doesn't have idea about the size of Radome aperture, yet blabber the reason for small size. And major soundless creativity is, one continues to bash with the paper specs, but never the configuration which actual used by the forces...

Tejas(mk1 and 1a) is clearly mentioned to replace mig21 and 27
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...lca-tejas-by-2024-25/article17532355.ece/amp/

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[Steven Rogers]

Tejas second squadron will on Frontline, the squadron 18 flying bullets will be revived and will be based on Kalikunda airbase
http://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/ne...nt-sekhon-s-squadron-to-fly-again/502125.html
http://indianmilitarynews.com/2017/11/no-18-squadron-to-fly-with-tejas/


Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[tejas warrior]

Israeli super radars set to give desi LCA fighter jet enhanced combat capability

Israeli firm ELTA is likely to shortly bag an order for a new set of AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radars for an air force order of 83 LCA Mk 1A jets.
The Israeli firm appears to have beat off competition from French firm Thales for the contract that has been in the works since 2016. Sources said that advanced negotiations are now on to finalise the contract at the earliest for early delivery of the combat enhanced jets to the Indian Air Force.
The ELTA radar is a derivate of the EL/M-2052 Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) that has also been equipped onboard the Jaguar DARIN III fighter jets of the air force. It has been selected for the LCA program ahead of the French Thales RBE2 radar derivative. Earlier, other suitors including the Americans and Swedes dropped out of the competition.


http://www.ecoti.in/qg7RdY

 

[Zer0]

Israeli super radars set to give desi LCA fighter jet enhanced combat capability

Israeli firm ELTA is likely to shortly bag an order for a new set of AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radars for an air force order of 83 LCA Mk 1A jets.
The Israeli firm appears to have beat off competition from French firm Thales for the contract that has been in the works since 2016. Sources said that advanced negotiations are now on to finalise the contract at the earliest for early delivery of the combat enhanced jets to the Indian Air Force.
The ELTA radar is a derivate of the EL/M-2052 Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) that has also been equipped onboard the Jaguar DARIN III fighter jets of the air force. It has been selected for the LCA program ahead of the French Thales RBE2 radar derivative. Earlier, other suitors including the Americans and Swedes dropped out of the competition.


http://www.ecoti.in/qg7RdY

Many propaganda articles from Manu Pubby now-a-days. Uttam radar is going to test this year so i don't believe HAL will ditched DRDO. Also ELTA radar had least chances being costly though they may have reduced price now amid competition.

 

[kstriya]

Many propaganda articles from Manu Pubby now-a-days. Uttam radar is going to test this year so i don't believe HAL will ditched DRDO. Also ELTA radar had least chances being costly though they may have reduced price now amid competition.

What is the estimated testing period????

 

[Steven Rogers]

Israeli super radars set to give desi LCA fighter jet enhanced combat capability

Israeli firm ELTA is likely to shortly bag an order for a new set of AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radars for an air force order of 83 LCA Mk 1A jets.
The Israeli firm appears to have beat off competition from French firm Thales for the contract that has been in the works since 2016. Sources said that advanced negotiations are now on to finalise the contract at the earliest for early delivery of the combat enhanced jets to the Indian Air Force.
The ELTA radar is a derivate of the EL/M-2052 Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) that has also been equipped onboard the Jaguar DARIN III fighter jets of the air force. It has been selected for the LCA program ahead of the French Thales RBE2 radar derivative. Earlier, other suitors including the Americans and Swedes dropped out of the competition.


http://www.ecoti.in/qg7RdY

Didn't knew, that deals are made with these Journos seated with the Panel.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[Steven Rogers]

What is the estimated testing period????

Will take at least 2 years if nothing goes wrong.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[Enquirer]

What is the estimated testing period????

Till Jan 2019 (per DRDO's estimate)