ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Steven Rogers]

It doesn't have speed and manuverability, which is why IAF a decade ago found that the MK2 is the only way to get it to meet the ASR.
Derby, Python V and the gun are still not fully integrated, which is part of pending FOC.

So what interception capabilities? That's why I keep saying, that FOC is the key to get Tejas to the minimum capability, to make it useful for IAF as a multi role fighter and that MK2 will finally bring it to the level that was asked for, just that it will be decades too late.

Definitely Speed, acceleration and Maneuverability what have impressed the top brass. Since Mk2 is now an MCA to replace MCA like Mirage and Mig29, and foc is nearing, with already integrated Derby bvr missile on mk1 and R73 wvr on mk1, it makes a case.

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[Sancho]

Definitely Speed, acceleration and Maneuverability what have impressed the top brass.

If that would be the case, IAF would not insist on the MK2 and LCA already could fly Mach 1.8, expand the flight envelope to 9G and achieve the turn rates, that were planned. But that's not the case!

 

[Steven Rogers]

If that would be the case, IAF would not insist on the MK2 and LCA already could fly Mach 1.8, expand the flight envelope to 9G and achieve the turn rates, that were planned. But that's not the case!

I "guess" it has achieved the turning rates. During induction of Tejas, The pilot said that the aircraft is capable of or in fact he himself demonstrated the maneuvers over 8g. Mach 1.8 is again a formality of foc like foc and STR which is nearing so quick.

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[patriots]

IAF pushes for faster production of Tejas after Gagan Shakti-2018

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...er-gagan-shakti-2018/articleshow/63905916.cms


The Indian Air Force’s pan-India exercise Gagan Shakti-2018, for practising war-time drills witnessed the IAF pushing the limits of its every fighter aircraft, including the Tejas, which entailed conducting six sorties per day on all of them, totalling to about 9,000 sorties. For the Tejas, this is a good development as the IAF usually sticks to around three sorties per day on every Tejas. However, the Tejas was not without problems and had developed snags during the exercise, top IAF officials said on Tuesday. Nevertheless, the IAF has expressed happiness with the performance of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and is looking towards faster production of them, explained the officials. This is significant as according to the reports, IAF has been critical of the operational capability of the Tejas, which also has several significant shortfalls.


A senior IAF official dealing with Gagan Shakti, which was conducted between April 8 and 22, explained that fighter aircraft, including the Tejas, Sukhoi-30 and MiG-29, undertook ‘surge operations’. These operations mean generating maximum number of sorties in a 24-hours cycle. “We have carried out our trials and we will be able to generate six sorties per Tejas per day for all the eight Tejas,” said the official, adding that these number of sorties were conducted on every Tejas during the exercise. The six sorties per day for the fighters was done on days when it didn’t have missions such as long distance. The Tejas was used during the exercise to check its efficiency in operations such as ground attack and other strike missions. “We are happy with the performance of the Tejas and are looking forward to the faster production of them,” said another senior official.


The Tejas, however, also faced different types of snags during the exercise. “These were routine snags. But we were able to recover from the snags we encountered. They didn’t affect the operation of the Tejas,” said an officia,l adding that the snags were not a nagging problem. The exercise was a major employment of the Tejas by the IAF, which conducted more than 11,000 sorties on over 1100 aircraft, including combat, transport and helicopters. Out of this, 9,000 sorties were conducted by fighter aircraft. “This was a peacetime exercise and we generated large number of sorties. During war, we will generate higher number of sorties than what we did during the exercise,” said an official

This is the state despite the IAF having only 31 fighter squadrons when it needs 42 to tackle the collusive threat of Pakistan and China. It conducted offensive and defensive operations along both the western and eastern fronts. “We tried to maximise what we can do with our current capability,” said an official, adding that with more number of fighters the IAF’s capabilities will rise. The IAF, earlier this month, had issued a Request for Information, stating its intent to procure 110 new fighters. Officials added that the high serviceability (80%) of the aircraft was possible during the exercise due to a dedicated maintenance team. “The Air Headquarters was also monitoring the situation and we had people checking from where spares can be made available. So we ensured that the aircraft serviceability didn’t go down,” explained an official. “The logistics stamina of the IAF and the ability to sustain continuous operations through day and night was put through a rigorous assessment,” said another official.

 

[Brood Father]

IAF pushes for faster production of Tejas after Gagan Shakti-2018

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...er-gagan-shakti-2018/articleshow/63905916.cms


The Indian Air Force’s pan-India exercise Gagan Shakti-2018, for practising war-time drills witnessed the IAF pushing the limits of its every fighter aircraft, including the Tejas, which entailed conducting six sorties per day on all of them, totalling to about 9,000 sorties. For the Tejas, this is a good development as the IAF usually sticks to around three sorties per day on every Tejas. However, the Tejas was not without problems and had developed snags during the exercise, top IAF officials said on Tuesday. Nevertheless, the IAF has expressed happiness with the performance of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and is looking towards faster production of them, explained the officials. This is significant as according to the reports, IAF has been critical of the operational capability of the Tejas, which also has several significant shortfalls.


A senior IAF official dealing with Gagan Shakti, which was conducted between April 8 and 22, explained that fighter aircraft, including the Tejas, Sukhoi-30 and MiG-29, undertook ‘surge operations’. These operations mean generating maximum number of sorties in a 24-hours cycle. “We have carried out our trials and we will be able to generate six sorties per Tejas per day for all the eight Tejas,” said the official, adding that these number of sorties were conducted on every Tejas during the exercise. The six sorties per day for the fighters was done on days when it didn’t have missions such as long distance. The Tejas was used during the exercise to check its efficiency in operations such as ground attack and other strike missions. “We are happy with the performance of the Tejas and are looking forward to the faster production of them,” said another senior official.


The Tejas, however, also faced different types of snags during the exercise. “These were routine snags. But we were able to recover from the snags we encountered. They didn’t affect the operation of the Tejas,” said an officia,l adding that the snags were not a nagging problem. The exercise was a major employment of the Tejas by the IAF, which conducted more than 11,000 sorties on over 1100 aircraft, including combat, transport and helicopters. Out of this, 9,000 sorties were conducted by fighter aircraft. “This was a peacetime exercise and we generated large number of sorties. During war, we will generate higher number of sorties than what we did during the exercise,” said an official

This is the state despite the IAF having only 31 fighter squadrons when it needs 42 to tackle the collusive threat of Pakistan and China. It conducted offensive and defensive operations along both the western and eastern fronts. “We tried to maximise what we can do with our current capability,” said an official, adding that with more number of fighters the IAF’s capabilities will rise. The IAF, earlier this month, had issued a Request for Information, stating its intent to procure 110 new fighters. Officials added that the high serviceability (80%) of the aircraft was possible during the exercise due to a dedicated maintenance team. “The Air Headquarters was also monitoring the situation and we had people checking from where spares can be made available. So we ensured that the aircraft serviceability didn’t go down,” explained an official. “The logistics stamina of the IAF and the ability to sustain continuous operations through day and night was put through a rigorous assessment,” said another official.

Chalo finally some good news . Sometimes I feel tejas will have to be force fed by the government to IAF

 

[Kshithij]

If that would be the case, IAF would not insist on the MK2 and LCA already could fly Mach 1.8, expand the flight envelope to 9G and achieve the turn rates, that were planned. But that's not the case!

MK2 is for better payload and range, not for better maneuvering or air to air and interception. India has even declared the flight envelope of AMCA to be 8G even before it was completed. It may be a conservative value to make FOC easy to achieve. I am not sure why you are harping on G-load so much. Tejas already achieves good turn rate and can make a turn in 350m radius as seen in Bahrain airshow.

 

[patriots]

army and air force inducted dhruv now we have 4 variant s of dhruv mk1 mk2 mk3 mk4(rudra)...and we have made lch and luh based on dhruv

army was forced to use insas now we have 3 variant s of insas ......and we have made tar ....Excalibur and a lot .....

so imho without armed forces support PSUs can't make. their best .. .....I am not saying that we should use bad quality weapon s

....China is maintaining a large air force and navy ....bcoz they are using indigeneous product s........

 

[patriots]

army and air force inducted dhruv now we have 4 variant s of dhruv mk1 mk2 mk3 mk4(rudra)...and we have made lch and luh based on dhruv

army was forced to use insas now we have 3 variant s of insas ......and we have made tar ....Excalibur and a lot .....

so imho without armed forces support PSUs can't make. their best .. .....I am not saying that we should use bad quality weapon s

....China is maintaining a large air force and navy ....bcoz they are using indigeneous product s........

and tejas IOC se.logoki patloon gilla..hay

what will happen when foc..with mk1a come

bdw expecting ifr in this month

 

[Kshithij]

army and air force inducted dhruv now we have 4 variant s of dhruv mk1 mk2 mk3 mk4(rudra)...and we have made lch and luh based on dhruv

army was forced to use insas now we have 3 variant s of insas ......and we have made tar ....Excalibur and a lot .....

so imho without armed forces support PSUs can't make. their best .. .....I am not saying that we should use bad quality weapon s

....China is maintaining a large air force and navy ....bcoz they are using indigeneous product s........

Wars are won by Quality and Quantity combined with human factor (will to fight and think logically). The equation is somewhat like QualityxQuantityxWill. Taking will out, we have QuantityxQuality.

So, some quality can be compromised for quantity. It is better to have 10MiG21 than 1 F35 or 3Tejas than 1 F35.

 

[patriots]

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[Narasimh]

IAF should look to integrate

It doesn't have speed and manuverability, which is why IAF a decade ago found that the MK2 is the only way to get it to meet the ASR.
Derby, Python V and the gun are still not fully integrated, which is part of pending FOC.

So what interception capabilities? That's why I keep saying, that FOC is the key to get Tejas to the minimum capability, to make it useful for IAF as a multi role fighter and that MK2 will finally bring it to the level that was asked for, just that it will be decades too late.

R-73 is already integrated. For now that will work. Eventually Astra and Derby will be part of the arsenal.

 

[Sancho]

I "guess" it has achieved the turning rates. During induction of Tejas, The pilot said that the aircraft is capable of or in fact he himself demonstrated the maneuvers over 8g. Mach 1.8 is again a formality of foc like foc and STR which is nearing so quick.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

Nope, they said they improved the flight envelope from the IOC levels, but did not met the ASR requirements. That's only possible with higher thrust to counter the overweight and aerodynamic issues.

=>

The MK-II design must return
ADA, has long proposed a Tejas MK-II with a more powerful engine than the baseline MK-I, as well as aerodynamic refinements, to address the IAF’s 1995 air staff qualitative requirements (ASQR) with respect to kinematic performance. After all, one of the regrets for the IAF has been the fact that the MK-I design does not meet the ASQR in terms of sustained turn rate (STR), transonic acceleration and climb rate...
...The 1995 ASQR apparently requires a STR of 18 degrees per second (same as the F-16’s) and Mk-II will close in on that. The climb rate will also be more or less satisfactorily reached. Transonic acceleration is expected to be realized fully. Moreover the Mk-II airframe will be able to reach a top speed of Mach 1.8 at altitude

http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2...for-tejas-mk-2/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


Saurav Jha is a known supporter of Tejas and indigenous developments and even he admitted in several reports, that the MK2 is the only solution to fix the flight performance shortfalls and "that's" what LCA MK2 is all about!


LCA MK1 IOC - limited performance, 4th gen, single role strike fighter

LCA MK1 FOC - limited performance, 4th gen, multi role fighter

LCA MK1A - limited performance, 4th gen, multi role fighter, with upgraded radar and EW

LCA MK2 - full performance, 4.5th gen,
multi role fighter, with upgraded avionics and fully integrated EW

 

[Sancho]

army and air force inducted dhruv now we have 4 variant s of dhruv mk1 mk2 mk3 mk4(rudra)...and we have made lch and luh based on dhruv

And if we had developed LCA in the same manner as Dhruv, it would had far less problems and most likely would had been a success by now. But we didn't!
We went on it alone, in our over ambitious and made a lot of mistakes on the way, that could had been avoided, if we had a foreign partner for design, development and testing from the start. Just as we put too much hope on indigenous systems from scratch, while we chose the right way for Dhruv and used off the shelf imported parts first, which then were constantly replaced, with each upgrade. We also chose to jointly develop a varient of a foreign engine for Dhruvs later versions, because we didn't had the know how for an own engine. But we dreamed about an own fighter engine for LCA and failed. And the list goes on and on...

The Dhruv programme is a success, because we achieved all milestones, by setting up the Base infrastructure, delivering a product to the requirements of the forces, gaining from the learning curve throughout the years and using what we learned for later upgrades, re-designs (Rudra/LCH) and complete new developments (LUH/IMRH).
The LCA programme is not a success, because we still trying to fix the problems and meet the milestones.

 

[Sancho]

IAF should look to integrate

R-73 is already integrated. For now that will work. Eventually Astra and Derby will be part of the arsenal.

IAF is the customer and sets the operational requirements. But it's the developer (ADA), that is responsible for the integration, testing and certifiction. So IAF is still waiting for ADA to do their job properly and within any time lines.

Also weapons or systems have only a certain life, beyond that, they lose their usefulness, or begin to have more failures. That's why fighters get upgraded every 10 to 15 years, to modernise it and replace older systems with new once.

Now LCA MK1 is being inducted with capabilities planned for 2008 onwards, therfore needs standard modernisation now => LCA MK1A
That's why R73, R77, older dumb bombs, a pulse doppler radar, or external EW doesn't cut it anymore.
To give IAF at least something to be operational valid, the MK1A upgrades were unavoidable, even if they doesn't take LCA to the required performance.

So yes, we badly need Derby, Python V or Astra just as a basic AESA and at least some EW upgrades, even if external SPJ is not current gen standard anymore.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Nope, they said they improved the flight envelope from the IOC levels, but did not met the ASR requirements. That's only possible with higher thrust to counter the overweight and aerodynamic issues.

=>


http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2...for-tejas-mk-2/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


Saurav Jha is a known supporter of Tejas and indigenous developments and even he admitted in several reports, that the MK2 is the only solution to fix the flight performance shortfalls and "that's" what LCA MK2 is all about!


LCA MK1 IOC - limited performance, 4th gen, single role strike fighter

LCA MK1 FOC - limited performance, 4th gen, multi role fighter

LCA MK1A - limited performance, 4th gen, multi role fighter, with upgraded radar and EW

LCA MK2 - full performance, 4.5th gen,
multi role fighter, with upgraded avionics and fully integrated EW

That article from SJHA was made when mk2 was required to meet the performance, not to replace the MCAs.. In Tejas mk1a itself weight reduction was planned and as much as 200kg min. The radar and EW were to be imported. And an advance EW suite was to be used. STR probably not achieved, but US the part of foc, AOA is already better than fighter of its class at 40 degree Celsius temp.

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[Narasimh]

IAF is the customer and sets the operational requirements. But it's the developer (ADA), that is responsible for the integration, testing and certifiction. So IAF is still waiting for ADA to do their job properly and within any time lines.

Also weapons or systems have only a certain life, beyond that, they lose their usefulness, or begin to have more failures. That's why fighters get upgraded every 10 to 15 years, to modernise it and replace older systems with new once.

Now LCA MK1 is being inducted with capabilities planned for 2008 onwards, therfore needs standard modernisation now => LCA MK1A
That's why R73, R77, older dumb bombs, a pulse doppler radar, or external EW doesn't cut it anymore.
To give IAF at least something to be operational valid, the MK1A upgrades were unavoidable, even if they doesn't take LCA to the required performance.

So yes, we badly need Derby, Python V or Astra just as a basic AESA and at least some EW upgrades, even if external SPJ is not current gen standard anymore.

This fighter was the first big effort on our part to be self reliant. It has taken time because of various reasons including poor management and unavailability of know how. Being new to this, even if it took more time its worth it.
There is no other option to self reliance when it comes to national security.


BTW R-73, R77 are not so obsolete. You forget that our large fleet of Migs and Sukhois still use these very missiles with their passive radars. Plus its not that our adversaries are way more advanced. LCA is not going to fight advanced Air forces of the world, so it is still a good fit to tackle adversaries like Pak and to some extent China.

So when you talk about weapons systems objectively that is not right. you should see capability wise what we can do with respect to the threats. If a war breaks out now, even our Bisons and 27s will be crucial assets.

 

[indiatester]

IAF is the customer and sets the operational requirements. But it's the developer (ADA), that is responsible for the integration, testing and certifiction. So IAF is still waiting for ADA to do their job properly and within any time lines.

IAF, ADA, HAL, DRDO need to get their act together to solve the deficiencies.

ADA is no multinational conglomerate to understand TAM and be ready with flexible products for different customers.

IAF should get out of this "customer" mentality.
They don't have enough money to get the toys they want or the numbers they desire. They should be pragmatic to realize that self reliance is the way to go.
For IAF's requirements, its in IAF's(and the nations) interest that they work with other agencies to develop those capabilities.

 

[ersakthivel]

Nope, they said they improved the flight envelope from the IOC levels, but did not met the ASR requirements. That's only possible with higher thrust to counter the overweight and aerodynamic issues.

=>


http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2...for-tejas-mk-2/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


Saurav Jha is a known supporter of Tejas and indigenous developments and even he admitted in several reports, that the MK2 is the only solution to fix the flight performance shortfalls and "that's" what LCA MK2 is all about!


LCA MK1 IOC - limited performance, 4th gen, single role strike fighter

LCA MK1 FOC - limited performance, 4th gen, multi role fighter

LCA MK1A - limited performance, 4th gen, multi role fighter, with upgraded radar and EW

LCA MK2 - full performance, 4.5th gen,
multi role fighter, with upgraded avionics and fully integrated EW

Well, it seems that this blame game is never gonna end.

The IAF ASR makers were no nobel prize winners in aerodynamics.


There never was


a fighter that could combine mig29 STR & Mirage2000 ITR in a single platform,

That weighs 6 tons empty & can do it all with 84 KN engine, & still be able strong enough to carry 4 ton payload.

& there will never be another fighter anywhere in the world

that can fulfill IAF ASR with 6 Ton empty weight & 84 kn engines.

Even the gripen E prototype that took part in the IAF MMRCA competition wont fit within IAF ASR of carrying 4 tons with an empty weight of 6 ton & 84 kn engine,while fulfilling ASR ITR & STR.


Tejas goes way above IAF ASR with,

1.HMDS mated ,visually cued high offbore WVR missile,


2.100 km range ASEA radar mated with home grown astra missile,& derby, python.


3.inflight refuelling.


4.6 sorties per day with more than 90 minutes endurance .


5.pressure refuelling.

6.state of the art DRFM Jammers.

7.Ability to launch glide bombs with high stand off range.

I mean the above specs were not even in IAF's dream when ASR was formed.

Even the 20 IOC mk1s are more effective than unupgraded mirage2000.

We wont know many key specs of tejas.

One among them is G onset rate.

It is the ability to reach peak G in a shorter timelimit enabling higher instantaneous turn rate.

With the lowest wing loading & decent TWR it should score high in this crucial areaof close combat.

Since it can change directions by quickly pulling high Gs , with this spec,

it will more than make up for the shortfalls in cartwheeling STR fights is my opinion.

Go to F16 Vs F16 XL comparison to know. Ore about it.

whether foreign fighters can pull those brochure 9Gs & STRs in hot & moist indian skies under operational conditions,

is another matter altogether.


Because in these conditions engine thrust will be significantly degraded For conventional engines.

Thats why ADA went in for flat rated kaveri.


So most of the ASR sorttfall gripes are imaginery.

Navy asked initially for mk2 because of stringent deck take off needing more thrust & availability of 414 engine.

IAF too joined in as it was logical thing to utilize sanctions free international atmosphere. To get a higher engine powered tejas mk2.

Which is a natural progression if we look gripen development .


No excess drag in tejas, is gonna curtail STR as it is made out to be.

Because STR targets are for corner velocities,

which are way below mach 1 speeds.

The drag which arises due to lack of smooth volume expansion at around 5 meters length on tejas airframe

IS A PROBLEM WHICH ARISES WHEN TEJAS MK1

TRIES TO GO SUPERSONIC AT SEA LEVEL.

Even that was solved according to a few source.

This drag is not an issue in acheiving corner velocity STR spec.

Its just that low wing loading deltas are generally weaker in STR & Stronger in ITR.

Go to #Tejas_LCA hastag in twitter for more detailed info

 

[Prashant12]

#LCATejas LSP-7 Fires a Derby BVR Missile.
The Missile Achieves Full Operational Capability leading to an important element for FOC of Tejas.
27th April 2018

LCA Tejas LSP-7 (KH-2017) successfully fired a Derby BVR missile from the western coast of the country while taking off from INS Hansa, Goa as a final step towards certifying the BVR. This was a significant trial where the above specified missile will now have the full operational capability

https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca

 

[Prashant12]

LCA Tejas LSP-7 Fires Derby BVR Missile: Missile Achieves Full Operational Capability