ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Sancho]

The journey to MK1A

Milestones so far:

Source: CAG report 2015


Questions over Tejas’ induction
December 01, 2007

With empirical data indicating that indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, in its present form, will not be able to meet the Air Staff Requirements (ASRs), the Indian Air Force (IAF) has raised serious questions over the future of the aircraft’s long term induction into the squadron service...

...Having been unable to come up with an engine even after 17 years, the GTRE since 2005 been in talks with the Russians and the French, attempting to decide who among the two engine houses will help them bring out an engine. A co-developed engine will optimistically take four years to fructify...
...But sources say that that neither the GE F404 nor the Kaveri will be able to provide the kind of thrust that can power the Tejas to ASR standards. Foreseeing this, the IAF had suggested that the Tejas could be powered by the more powerful GE F414 engine.

The ADA set up an internal committee to study the possibility, but since using the heavier and larger F414 would need modifications on the Tejas’ air intakes and the fuselage, further delaying the delayed project, the suggestion was ignored.

Official sources said that besides lack of installed thrust there were also niggles with the Tejas airframe, which would come up when the ADA expanded the Tejas’ flight test programme and went in for high angle of attack/ high alpha testing, very low speed trails, carefree manoeuvres and other combat related flying. “The Tejas requires aerodynamic fixes.” But this could further increase its all up weight...

Source:
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...over-Tejasrsquo-induction/article14886084.ece


Kaveri engine failure:

Overweight problem:

Source: CAG report 2015


LCA needs new engine to be worthy of combat
June 06, 2008

...In what could be a deathblow to the indigenous fighter programme, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has conceded that the first lot of planes to enter service will not only carry a limited load of weapons but will also have a restricted ‘angle of attack’, making them unsuitable for aerial combat...
...With the IAF not willing to introduce any more such ‘limited’ fighters, plans are afoot to give the LCA a new engine with greater thrust. However, this would also require a complete redesign. “To put in a new engine, like the GE 414, with this capability, the existing structure of the aircraft will have to be modified...

Source: http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/lca-needs-new-engine-to-be-worthy-of-combat/319117/


IAF insists on changes to Tejas
December 05, 2008

The Indian Air Force has categorically ruled out placing further orders for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, with its current configuration...
...Recently, the IAF even made a few suggestions on improvements in Tejas Mk2, including a more powerful engine, optimisation of the aerodynamic qualities and weight of the aircraft and “dropping and replacing” certain parts to take care of obsolescence.

Tejas Mk2 will take a few years to fructify, the biggest challenge being choosing a new powerful engine. In December, the ADA is expected to issue a request for proposal to General Electric for its GE F414 and to the European consortium Eurojet for EJ200, in a bid to procure 99 engines (with an option to buy another 49).

Once the engine is chosen, fuselage modifications will have to be carried out, flight tests started and evaluation undertaken...

Source:
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/IAF-insists-on-changes-to-Tejas/article15355169.ece


Part 1/3

 

[Sancho]

Beyond LCA Tejas Mk 1
By Air Marshal (Retd) B.K. Pandey
1 / 2014

After 30 years of effort by the Indian aerospace industry, an investment of Rs. 25,000 crore by the government and constant hounding by the Indian Air Force (IAF), the light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas has been able to achieve initial operational clearance (IOC) on December 20, 2013. The platform has been designated as the Mk 1. However, a notable and somewhat tragic deficiency that to an extent subdues the glory of this achievement, is the failure on the part of the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), an agency under the Defence Research and Development Organisation
(DRDO), to successfully design and produce the indigenous Kaveri engine for LCA Tejas Mk 1 despite over two decades of effort and staggering levels of investment. In the case of the LCA Mk 1 fleet, the IAF will have no option but to continue to depend on a foreign source for the upkeep and replacement of the power plant which represents the heart of the aircraft...
...It is obvious from the above that the IAF is not contemplating on acquiring more than the initial batch of 40 LCA Tejas Mk 1 for which orders have already been placed with HAL. Instead, as per reports, the IAF plans to induct 80 (four squadrons) of the LCA Tejas Mk 2...

Source:
http://www.sps-aviation.com/story/?id=1376


First Tejas rolls out, but production line at mercy of further orders
October 02, 2014

...However, IAF caution stands in the way of HAL’s enthusiasm. The IAF has ordered just 40 Tejas fighters --- 20 built to current specifications, and another 20 built to a higher set of specifications that will be realised when the Tejas achieves “final operational clearance” (FOC), which is likely only by mid-2015.

Yet, without additional orders, the Tejas production line will shut down 3-4 years from now, when HAL would have delivered the 40 Tejas on order. The IAF says further orders will be placed only for the advanced Tejas Mark II.

Developing this will take some 5-7 years, since it involves extensive redesign. The General Electric F-404 engine that currently powers the Tejas will give way to a larger F-414 engine, requiring major re-engineering. The systems and avionics will also be redesigned; and then a test flight programme conducted.

While this happens, keeping the Tejas production line alive and benefiting from the economies of scale manufacture, would require additional IAF orders for the Tejas Mark I, or large export orders...

Source:
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.de/2014/10/first-tejas-fighter-of-iafs-first-tejas.html?m=1


What are the shortcomings that have been reported in India's LCA Tejas Mk-I?
Jul 31, 2015

In a written reply in the Lok Sabha, Parrikar said that the government has sanctioned project for development of LCA Mk-II in 2009. "Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is the prime agency for development of LCA Mk-II with public and private partnerships," he said.

According to Parrikar, the following shortcomings have been reported in LCA Tejas Mk-I:

- Absence of Internal Jammer affecting survivability

- Aircraft performance shortfalls.

- Maintainability issues

Source:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ndias-lca-tejas-mk-i/articleshow/48295273.cms

With Tejas Mark II years away, HAL asks air force to buy Tejas Mark 1-A
Aug 12, 2015

...Senior HAL and ADA officials agree the Tejas Mark II is unlikely to enter production till 2023-24...
...HAL, therefore, wants the IAF to buy 80 Tejas Mark I-A to keep the production line occupied from 2020 to 2023-24...
...HAL sees a four-year gap between the last Tejas Mark I and the first Tejas Mark II as seriously disruptive. Building 80 Tejas Mark I-A is a way of bridging that gap...

Source:
http://wap.business-standard.com/ar...rce-to-buy-tejas-mark-1-a-115081201951_1.html


Revealed: The LCA Tejas That The IAF Has Chosen
Jun 27, 2016

...The known updates are clear. The Mk.1A will be mid-air refuellable, sport an updated internal Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) — likely in-house kit from the DRDO’s DARE laboratory — an external Self Protection Jammer (SPJ) pod to enhance survivability and an AESA Radar, both of which the Tejas programme is scouting international suppliers for. The IAF has also stipulated that the Tejas Mk.1A needs to be able to fire different types of BVR and close combat air to air missiles...

...The meat of the Mk.1A will be a slew of major improvements in the LCA’s squadron-level maintainability contours. It is difficult to overstate just how much importance the IAF has placed on ramped up no-nonsense maintainability, more than a milestone away from the admittedly unwieldy maintenance architecture built into the Mk.1. On maintainability alone, the Tejas Mk.1A will have the 43 improvements out of 57 planned on the bigger, more powerful Tejas Mk.2:

...Improvements planned on the Tejas Mk.2, apart from the more powerful engine and attendant expansion of op envelope, include new sensors, new indigenous actuators, and a new indigenous avionics architecture...
...a further half ton weight reduction through revised design factors, performance improvements by “aerodynamic refinements of geometry”, an internal electronic warfare suite, a brand new suite of indigenous avionics systems currently under development, a new digital flight control computer, OBOGS for mission endurance...

Source:
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/06/revealed-the-lca-tejas-that-the-iaf-has-chosen.html


IAF initiates step to buy 83 Tejas aircraft
December 21, 2017

The Indian Air Force (IAF) on Wednesday issued the Request for Information (RFI) for 83 Tejas light combat aircraft with specific enhancements.

“The RFI was issued for 83 aircraft, which includes 73 in Mk-1A configuration and 10 trainers in Final Operational Configuration (FOC). With this, the IAF will eventually have 123 Tejas aircraft,” an official said.

The deadline for Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), which is manufacturing the aircraft, to respond is March 14, the official added.

The Mk-1A, which has 43 improvements over the basic variant and the production of the 1A, is expected in 2019.

HAL is also in the process of setting up another assembly line at a cost of Rs. 130 crore to increase the production rate from eight to 16.

The second line would be ready by 2019 when Mk-1A begins production, another official said.

The IAF has so far placed orders for 40 jets in two batches of which the first 20 are in the Initial Operational Configuration (IOC) while the remaining 20 are in the Final Operational Configuration (FOC).

Source:
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...-to-buy-83-tejas-aircraft/article22119884.ece


Part 2/3

 

[Sancho]

HAL Managing Director Suvarna Raju on MK1A and production time line:

HAL developing LCA-1P with AESA Radar

...P in the LCA-I P stands for prototype, but once accepted by IAF, it could be designated LCA-MkI-A...
...The new LCA-MkI-P variant with the EW Package will also add some 50 kilos of more weight, but then, Mr Raju explained, the capability of the aircraft increases significantly, offsetting the disadvantage of a smaller engine.

The current LCA-MkI version uses 210 kilos with ballast in the nose to stabilize the aircraft. This will be removed, and the AESA and EW suite weighing about 250 kilos will be added. The net weight gain will be of about 50 kilos...

Source:
http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories3767_HAL_developing_LCA-1P_with_AESA_Radar.htm


HAL Setting New Horizons to be an Integrator

...“We look for the best industry products and we promise the best industrial practices.” Notably, the LCA has already tested a refuelling probe, fired missiles successfully, demonstrated high altitude as well as hot weather capabilities, and is now about to be fitted with an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar for the under development MK 1A version. Replies to a Request for Quotations (RfQs) sent to six global companies have been received. Among them are Israeli Elta, Swedish Saab, French Thales and US Raytheon.

HAL needs a combination of onboard EW suite, Self-Protection Jammer (SPJ) and AESA radar, and whosoever has the best combination, will be selected. These systems should be able to talk to each other and be quick in integration.

“By 2018, we should be able to give a demonstration of this integrated package to the IAF, and shortly after that, within 2018 or 2019, we should start building the required numbers of LCA Mk 1A aircraft for IAF.”...

Source:
http://www.indiastrategic.in/2017/07/01/hal-setting-new-horizons-to-be-an-integrator-2/


Interview with HAL CMD: ‘No frozen standard of preparation of LCA… that’s where delays are coming

...What is the delay in getting the FOC now?

The aircraft are flying and the operational capacity enhancement requires a thorough verification. It is a developmental work and we are planning to fly 60 sorties a month. Now between IAF, ADA and HAL, we are ensuring that these many sorties happen.

While the promises are for getting the FOC by mid-2018, we will definitely get it by December 2018. We should then be able to supply these 20 FOC by 2022. And then on to the next 83...

Source:
http://indianexpress.com/article/bu...a-thats-where-delays-are-coming-4944113/lite/


Part 3/3

 

[pmaitra]

Canards hv their plus & minus in distinct flight envelope areas,


Canard down wash energises vortice airflow on the upper wing ,which aids in low pressure creation & lift.

At the same time there are some force coupling & other issues like the smallee stall angle of canards reducing the main wing from reaching full efficiency in lift.


They would be operated within their deflection limits to over come these issues, by FCS of the plane

I agree with most of your post except the second line:

"Canard down wash energises vortice airflow on the upper wing ,which aids in low pressure creation & lift."

This is not necessarily true.

As a matter of fact, canards can interfere with the airflow over the wings and reduce the lift the wings would otherwise create if there were no canard. However, since canard itself may produce lift, in specific cases, the summation of the reduced lift created by the wings and the lift created by the canards is more than the lift created by the wings if there were no canard.

For canards to interfere with the wings' airflow and have a positive effect, they need to be on the plane of the wings or above, and they need to be close to the leading edge of the wings.

Source: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19740003706.pdf

Now, if we are to include canards on the LCA, there is very little space to do it (see dotted box in the image below) and the equipment controlling the canards might foul with the cockpit space. Canards on the LCA would require significant modification of the airframe.

___________

Mirage had no meaningful canards. The canards are actually small strakes. LCA has cranks instead of strakes and also anhedral delta both of which are lift generators.

Gripen:

Tejas:

As seen above:
1) Canards result in wings being shortened and hence lower wing area compares to length of aircraft which reduces lift. The canards also generate lift to compensate this
2) Canards breaks the airflow in front of the wings, thereby reducing the overall wing's lift.
3) The crank of the Tejas provides lift as well as concentrates vortex under the wing without reducing the wing area. This also doesn't break airflow into the wings nor scatter the wind blowing under the wing.

Canards have a net penalty in terms of lift compared to cranks due to a part of the airflow being scattered away by canards. Cranks are a real jugad way of doing things. There is really no need for canards.

By the way, Naval LCA has LEVCON (etension of wing that acts like canard) to provide additional drag for short landing.

Here above are some valid points regarding canards interfering with the airflow but again, it is not always a detriment. Said that, it is better to have horizontal stabilizers behind (aft of) the Centre of Mass, and not in the front (fore). The more I read about it, the more I am compelled to see this as a European fetish than anything logical.

 

[pmaitra]

Those interested in the technical details are invited to comment here: Canards vs Levcons

 

[tejas warrior]

HAL Managing Director Suvarna Raju on MK1A and production time line:

HAL developing LCA-1P with AESA Radar

...P in the LCA-I P stands for prototype, but once accepted by IAF, it could be designated LCA-MkI-A...
...The new LCA-MkI-P variant with the EW Package will also add some 50 kilos of more weight, but then, Mr Raju explained, the capability of the aircraft increases significantly, offsetting the disadvantage of a smaller engine.

The current LCA-MkI version uses 210 kilos with ballast in the nose to stabilize the aircraft. This will be removed, and the AESA and EW suite weighing about 250 kilos will be added. The net weight gain will be of about 50 kilos...

Source:
http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories3767_HAL_developing_LCA-1P_with_AESA_Radar.htm


HAL Setting New Horizons to be an Integrator

...“We look for the best industry products and we promise the best industrial practices.” Notably, the LCA has already tested a refuelling probe, fired missiles successfully, demonstrated high altitude as well as hot weather capabilities, and is now about to be fitted with an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar for the under development MK 1A version. Replies to a Request for Quotations (RfQs) sent to six global companies have been received. Among them are Israeli Elta, Swedish Saab, French Thales and US Raytheon.

HAL needs a combination of onboard EW suite, Self-Protection Jammer (SPJ) and AESA radar, and whosoever has the best combination, will be selected. These systems should be able to talk to each other and be quick in integration.

“By 2018, we should be able to give a demonstration of this integrated package to the IAF, and shortly after that, within 2018 or 2019, we should start building the required numbers of LCA Mk 1A aircraft for IAF.”...

Source:
http://www.indiastrategic.in/2017/07/01/hal-setting-new-horizons-to-be-an-integrator-2/


Interview with HAL CMD: ‘No frozen standard of preparation of LCA… that’s where delays are coming

...What is the delay in getting the FOC now?

The aircraft are flying and the operational capacity enhancement requires a thorough verification. It is a developmental work and we are planning to fly 60 sorties a month. Now between IAF, ADA and HAL, we are ensuring that these many sorties happen.

While the promises are for getting the FOC by mid-2018, we will definitely get it by December 2018. We should then be able to supply these 20 FOC by 2022. And then on to the next 83...

Source:
http://indianexpress.com/article/bu...a-thats-where-delays-are-coming-4944113/lite/


Part 3/3

Sancho - We all know that.

However, you need not sell Gripen here.

 

[tejas warrior]

An #UnreleasedPhoto of the #LCATejas Armed with Missiles and Drop Tanks during the 2013 Leh Winter Detachment
Photo by: #SanjaySimha

 

[darshan978]

The journey to MK1A

Milestones so far:

Source: CAG report 2015


Questions over Tejas’ induction
December 01, 2007

With empirical data indicating that indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, in its present form, will not be able to meet the Air Staff Requirements (ASRs), the Indian Air Force (IAF) has raised serious questions over the future of the aircraft’s long term induction into the squadron service...

...Having been unable to come up with an engine even after 17 years, the GTRE since 2005 been in talks with the Russians and the French, attempting to decide who among the two engine houses will help them bring out an engine. A co-developed engine will optimistically take four years to fructify...
...But sources say that that neither the GE F404 nor the Kaveri will be able to provide the kind of thrust that can power the Tejas to ASR standards. Foreseeing this, the IAF had suggested that the Tejas could be powered by the more powerful GE F414 engine.

The ADA set up an internal committee to study the possibility, but since using the heavier and larger F414 would need modifications on the Tejas’ air intakes and the fuselage, further delaying the delayed project, the suggestion was ignored.

Official sources said that besides lack of installed thrust there were also niggles with the Tejas airframe, which would come up when the ADA expanded the Tejas’ flight test programme and went in for high angle of attack/ high alpha testing, very low speed trails, carefree manoeuvres and other combat related flying. “The Tejas requires aerodynamic fixes.” But this could further increase its all up weight...

Source:
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...over-Tejasrsquo-induction/article14886084.ece


Kaveri engine failure:

Overweight problem:

Source: CAG report 2015


LCA needs new engine to be worthy of combat
June 06, 2008

...In what could be a deathblow to the indigenous fighter programme, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has conceded that the first lot of planes to enter service will not only carry a limited load of weapons but will also have a restricted ‘angle of attack’, making them unsuitable for aerial combat...
...With the IAF not willing to introduce any more such ‘limited’ fighters, plans are afoot to give the LCA a new engine with greater thrust. However, this would also require a complete redesign. “To put in a new engine, like the GE 414, with this capability, the existing structure of the aircraft will have to be modified...

Source: http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/lca-needs-new-engine-to-be-worthy-of-combat/319117/


IAF insists on changes to Tejas
December 05, 2008

The Indian Air Force has categorically ruled out placing further orders for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, with its current configuration...
...Recently, the IAF even made a few suggestions on improvements in Tejas Mk2, including a more powerful engine, optimisation of the aerodynamic qualities and weight of the aircraft and “dropping and replacing” certain parts to take care of obsolescence.

Tejas Mk2 will take a few years to fructify, the biggest challenge being choosing a new powerful engine. In December, the ADA is expected to issue a request for proposal to General Electric for its GE F414 and to the European consortium Eurojet for EJ200, in a bid to procure 99 engines (with an option to buy another 49).

Once the engine is chosen, fuselage modifications will have to be carried out, flight tests started and evaluation undertaken...

Source:
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/IAF-insists-on-changes-to-Tejas/article15355169.ece


Part 1/3

I call it utter bs of IAF. high expectation causing lca delay. i blame IAF fully due to non induction of tejas. and tejas couldnt achive ASR due to frequent change in ASR.
our IAF is full of idiots or having vested interests.

 

[tejas warrior]

Tejas Update

Source : BR

Paanwalla and Chaiwallah report, Gun firing tests have been postponed for now and maybe it has been delinked from FOC.

 

[Kshithij]

Tejas Update

Source : BR

Paanwalla and Chaiwallah report, Gun firing tests have been postponed for now and maybe it has been delinked from FOC.

What does it mean? Can you elaborate? Is it a joke?

 

[tejas warrior]

What does it mean? Can you elaborate? Is it a joke?

Not a joke.
It's not a official news.. BUT mostly true.

I believe, Gun will certified with MK1-A and possibly due to some rearrangement of LRUs planned for weight reduction & easy Maintance.

 

[patriots]

Not a joke.
It's not a official news.. BUT mostly true.

I believe, Gun will certified with MK1-A and possibly due to some rearrangement of LRUs planned for weight reduction & easy Maintance.

ya they are naming their source s as panwala and chaiwala...
ifr is first priority....

 

[Sancho]

Sancho - We all know that.

However, you need not sell Gripen here.

Really, that's all you see??? It was you that didn't knew the difference between MK1A and MK2, or why the latter is more difficult to develop, that's why I explained it to you.

I only added the detailed informations, to give you and other members a proper base to understand, where the MK2 requirement came from, why we ended up with the MK1A instead and what the latest official info's and time lines are.

It's ok, if you can't appreciate the effort, but at least don't make up unrelated stuff!

 

[tejas warrior]

Really, that's all you see??? It was you that didn't knew the difference between MK1A and MK2, or why the latter is more difficult to develop, that's why I explained it to you.

I only added the detailed informations, to give you and other members a proper base to understand, where the MK2 requirement came from, why we ended up with the MK1A instead and what the latest official info's and time lines are.

It's ok, if you can't appreciate the effort, but at least don't make up unrelated stuff!

Whatever you have written has been discussed multiple times in this thread.

Nothing new which we haven't read.

 

[SanjeevM]

Not a joke.
It's not a official news.. BUT mostly true.

I believe, Gun will certified with MK1-A and possibly due to some rearrangement of LRUs planned for weight reduction & easy Maintance.

Will that prepone FOC from 2018 end to mid 2018?

 

[tejas warrior]

Will that prepone FOC from 2018 end to mid 2018?

No.. I don't think so (IMHO)
Mid air refueling test is a time consuming step.. and it's going to take it's time. However actual refueling been delinked from FOC. Only LSP8 needs to clear all flight envelope with probe.

Let's see.

 

[patriots]

I think everything is going according to air force s instruction.....previously there was a news that air force is giving priority to ifr

hmm Gun trial is delinked from foc according to brf
but aother crucial part is there wvr firing .

don't know hal ..will go with Python or not

a lots of confusing reports

 

[WolfPack86]

Tejas mk 1a cost 60 million or 110 million why it is cost so much suddenly.

 

[tejas warrior]

Tejas mk 1a cost 60 million or 110 million why it is cost so much suddenly.

Unless AESA & EW Suit is decided, all price are speculations only.

Let the contract signed between IAF & HAL and you get the actual price.

But in any case, it's going to be cheaper if you consider unit cost. Contact may have added components like Maintance, Weapons, Training, Infra.

 

[patriots]

Unless AESA & EW Suit is decided, all price are speculations only.

Let the contract signed between IAF & HAL and you get the actual price.

But in any case, it's going to be cheaper if you consider unit cost. Contact may have added components like Maintance, Weapons, Training, Infra.

it will be more cheaper with uttam and kaveri

imported radar ,ew suits adds extra cost ..
we can get a clear picture ...after contract