ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Sancho]

Question is...is the 33000 crores the fly away cost , or the whole deal including accessories. If its including everything its incredible!
33000 crores = 5.15 Bil$ for 83 Tejas mk1A
An equal number of Gripen E would cost 10.86 bil$..over 2 times more(based on the Brazil deal) and an equal number of Rafale would cost around 21 Bil$...over 4 times more.

Some sources also say the deal is worth 50,000 crores or 7.8 Bil$.. Its still the cheapest option, but i would be disappointed due to the cost escalation and also being only 28% cheaper than the Gripen E.

If the figures that Ajay Shukla reported is correct, an MK1A at least initially would cost around 62 million dollar flyaway, so the basic prosuction cost.
Gripen E and F16 B70 are estimated between 60 and 80 million dollar flyaway and they are MMRCAs, but the system cost including training, spares, logistics as well as the weapon pack will be costlier than for MK1A.
However, driving down the cost of MK1A must be a prime goal, to attract export customers and compete with Gripen C/D or other light attack aircrafts, that are cheaper.

 

[Sancho]

Aperture of the radar will be small, RWR probably the digital RWR with six Antennas on board.

Yes, somewhere in the 700 TR module range, as Uttam.
For radar the best choice would still be EL2052, because of commonality to Darin 3 Jags and the available A2G modes.
For EW, Saab offers the best package and if they find a solution to add IR MAWS in external housings similar to Gripen, it would be a huge benefit to LCA's capabilities.

 

[binayak95]

There is no true CAS, only the misconseption that an A10 would do attacks with it's gun all the time. Even in WW1 aircrafts supported ground troops, by dropping grenades on enemy troops and not only used their guns.
Also what makes you think a Rafale couldn't do a gun attack? The low speed manuverability of fighters with canards is well known, Rafales radar and avionics are geared for low level flights as well, so what stops it?

Because modern day fighters don't have the armaments that the aircraft I mention. (Not to mention the armor)

The Hind has the deadly twin barreled Gsh-23L (650 rounds) , the Apache, a 30 mm autocannon with 1200 rounds, the A-10 with the famous Vulcan gating gun, the Su-25 has Gsh-30-2 with 250 rounds.

 

[Sancho]

Because modern day fighters don't have the armaments that the aircraft I mention. (Not to mention the armor)

The Hind has the deadly twin barreled Gsh-23L (650 rounds) , the Apache, a 30 mm autocannon with 1200 rounds, the A-10 with the famous Vulcan gating gun, the Su-25 has Gsh-30-2 with 250 rounds.

LCA =>
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/ada-tejas-lca-news-and-discussions.1/page-375#post-862463

Rafale =>
https://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/rafale-30m791-gun-920-5.jpg?quality=85&strip=info&w=920

 

[mayfair]

Tejas prices

December 2015

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...o-be-longer/articleshow/50165514.cms?from=mdr

Besides, the cost of Mark-IA, the upgraded version of the series production (SP) fighters, will be Rs 190 crore up from Rs 160-crore estimated last year, due to integration of more systems as requested by the Indian Air Force.

Also

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...s-fighter-at-rs-162-crore-114011100829_1.html

So in less than two years, the price of Tejas MK1A more than doubled from Rs. 190 crore to Rs. 400 crore????

I wonder what inflation indices are being followed here...

 

[tejas warrior]

SP-7 (LA-5007) taxing out for a routine production sortie.

#TEJAS #LCA #HAL #ADA #TejasOfficalArchive

 

[indiatester]

I saw one fly today. Not sure which one though.

 

[Kshithij]

Cost of 123 Tejas including one time capital investment, hangar construction, development cost, maintenance, weapons is 5000 crore. It comes to 62 million dollars a piece.

We should also consider the fact that many items like engine, Radar, EW are not indian but imported ones. The cost of F404 itself is 4 million dollars. In addition, spare parts etc will cost another 2 million just for engine.

Once infrastructure is made, imports relaced by indian component, cost will drastically come down. In 2015, I had read that HAL can make Tejas for 170 crore each.

 

[Sancho]

Tejas prices

December 2015

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...o-be-longer/articleshow/50165514.cms?from=mdr



Also

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...s-fighter-at-rs-162-crore-114011100829_1.html

So in less than two years, the price of Tejas MK1A more than doubled from Rs. 190 crore to Rs. 400 crore????

I wonder what inflation indices are being followed here...

Those are all estimates so far, we know officially that 60000 crores are planned for the development and production of the upgrade so far, but we don't know how much of that will actually be the cost for the fighter alone. The question is also, when HAL will select a winner for radar and EW, because without fixing costs negotiations on that side, they can't provide IAF with a proper proposal.

 

[Sancho]

RFP issued to HAL for 83 LCA-Mk1A is just the beginning
By Air Commodore KI Ravi, AVSM VSM (retd)
December 21, 2017 |

...The Mk 1A is only an improved version of the Mk 1 and hence the accrued benefits are not worth the cost. Assuming 50000 crores for the complete package of 83 ac, the cost per ac works out to Rs. 603 crores/ac or USD 93 million per aircraft. Compare to Rs. 200 crores per aircraft for the Mk 1. Yes, HAL is promising advanced AESA radar and Electronic Warfare Equipment, but all from abroad.

Why? because our indigenous DRDO organisations, namely LRDE and DARE failed to produce the AESA and the EW equipment respectively. The cost of the aircraft can be halved, if we have our own Kaveri engine, our own AESA radar from LRDE and our own EW equipment from DARE. But they are lagging behind severely and the DRDO needs to be held accountable...

...The Mk 1A Tejas is heavier than the Mk 1 and with the same GE 404 engine. Therefore, its performance will be that much lower...

http://idrw.org/rfp-issued-to-hal-for-83-lca-mk1a-is-just-the-beginning/

 

[mayfair]

Those are all estimates so far, we know officially that 60000 crores are planned for the development and production of the upgrade so far, but we don't know how much of that will actually be the cost for the fighter alone. The question is also, when HAL will select a winner for radar and EW, because without fixing costs negotiations on that side, they can't provide IAF with a proper proposal.

Yes, estimates and so are Shook Law's figures. I was only wondering what inflation indices were used such that estimates went up from 190 crores tp 400 crores in less than 2 years.. Even Parrikar in his statement around mid-2016 stated that an LCA would cost 200-250 crores!!

60,000 Crores for development and production != 400 crores for each fighter in a fly-away condition. We still do not know for sure what packages are included, does it included on site support, fleet maintainability and life cycle costs or not.

 

[pmaitra]

Of course not, because your question was based on a wrong understanding of CAS. That's why I quoted the official US DoD definition of CAS for you, which btw is the basis of your own documents as well:

What exactly does this document prove?

As far as I can see, it doesn't prove anything that you have said that I have quoted (except the portion that I haven't read).

Again, per definition,

Where on earth is that definition? Certainly not in the document you have pasted above.

altitude, speed or dive attacks has no relevance for the role,

Altitude/speed has no relevance, is it?

Posted by me earlier [LINK]:

- pmaitra, Tuesday at 4:55 AM

Posted by me earlier [LINK]:

- pmaitra, Wednesday at 3:40 AM

because any air attack in support of friendly troops accounts for CAS!

As per Sancho's imagined definition. As per you, Tupolev-160 missions in Syria are also CAS mission because they are in support of friendly troops.

Keep repeating this bluff. If repeated enough number of times, people will begin to believe it.

Didn't read the rest of your post.

 

[pmaitra]

There is no true CAS, only the misconseption that an A10 would do attacks with it's gun all the time. Even in WW1 aircrafts supported ground troops, by dropping grenades on enemy troops and not only used their guns.
Also what makes you think a Rafale couldn't do a gun attack? The low speed manuverability of fighters with canards is well known, Rafales radar and avionics are geared for low level flights as well, so what stops it?

"only the misconseption that an A10 would do attacks with it's gun all the time"
- Could you quote anyone who said that the A-10 would do attacks with its gun all the time?

"Even in WW1 . . ."
- You are fixated on the World Wars. A-10 and Sukhoi-25 were not used in the World Wars, neither was LCA, but I could be mistaken though. Please correct me if I am wrong.

"Also what makes you think a Rafale couldn't do a gun attack?"
- I intend to answer this question, but later.

"The low speed manuverability of fighters with canards is well known"
- This statement adds no value. In any event, since you mentioned manoeuverability, why don't you talk about LCA's maneuverability in low altitude missions, since you insist that LCA is or can be a good CAS aircraft? You repeatedly avoid this question.

 

[Babloo Singh]

Yes, estimates and so are Shook Law's figures. I was only wondering what inflation indices were used such that estimates went up from 190 crores tp 400 crores in less than 2 years.. Even Parrikar in his statement around mid-2016 stated that an LCA would cost 200-250 crores!!

60,000 Crores for development and production != 400 crores for each fighter in a fly-away condition. We still do not know for sure what packages are included, does it included on site support, fleet maintainability and life cycle costs or not.

This happens only in India !!
HAL hasn't even sent the quote, I am sure they haven't even worked out the price they will Quote...
Oh wait they haven't even finalized vendors for some component...
And we are discussing increased cost of LCA...

 

[Pandora]

SP-7 (LA-5007) taxing out for a routine production sortie.

#TEJAS #LCA #HAL #ADA #TejasOfficalArchive

View attachment 22156

Why they again opened the auxiliary air intake ????

 

[tejas warrior]

Why they again opened the auxiliary air intake ????

It's there since very long.. in all SPs.

 

[Anirbann Datta]

My home is Midnapur, its a little distance from kalaikunda AFBase, i see daily such sorties, as the base is now been reviving as LCA den( it was earlier MIG-21/27 main base i guess) . I will post pic shortly as they make low fly over my home area( as low as i can even spot the pilot head moving when they do roll).

 

[Flame Thrower]

"
"Also what makes you think a Rafale couldn't do a gun attack?"
- I intend to answer this question, but later.

Sirji, are you pulling his leg with silly arguments...

Rafale Gun has 125 rounds of ammo and fires 2500 rounds per min. Do you expect rafale pilot to provide CAS with his gun having only 3 sec of trigger time!?

There is no information on gun pods equipped Rafales, if not please provide with source.

We forum members(atleast I do) expect mods to be the best members providing useful info.

Please don't troll.......

why don't you talk about LCA's maneuverability in low altitude missions, since you insist that LCA is or can be a good CAS aircraft? You repeatedly avoid this question.

Sirji, CAS is all about supporting ground troops. It doesn't mean that CAS ac have to fly low and slow and armoured to take direct hits from ZU-23s.

It can be done with A-10, Su 25, LCA, Rafale heck even with F-35. PGMs have paved the way to turn every aircraft into CAS. I hope you know the story of F-16 scared shit out of the bad guys using a sonic boom. You know that cost of each sortie would also come into picture right!?This cost along with loiter time has forced lot of nations to go for propeller driven aircraft and turn them into CAS. Even HAL has plans to arm HTT with Gun pods, rockets and ATGMs

British had used brimstone missile to turn every A/C into a CAS aircraft. Why can't we develop helina in that way

 

[Sancho]

Where on earth is that definition? Certainly not in the document you have pasted above.

Lol, that page is from your own PDF and the definition was even marked in a different color, but let me zoom in for you:

=> air attack in support of friendly troops accounts for CAS!

That's why your earlier question (If you are using LGB, why do you need CAS?) was wrong and based on the flawed base, because you obviously don't understand, that an LGB strike in direct support of friendly troops already is CAS!
That's why you keep repeating outdated stuff about low level and low speed, but fail to understand that LCA doesn't need that in modern CAS. All that counts today is, weapon load capability and weapon variety of the platform.

But since you neither are reading your own document, nor my posts properly, it's evident that you just don't want to understand, which makes any further discussion pointless.

 

[Sancho]

There is no information on gun pods equipped Rafales, if not please provide with source.

It has the option to carry an external twin barrel gun pod similar to Mirage 2000, but that simply is outdated, which is why it never was integrated, nor requested by any customer.

Sirji, CAS is all about supporting ground troops. It doesn't mean that CAS ac have to fly low and slow and armoured to take direct hits from ZU-23s.

That's the point! When you can launch your weapons outside of the reach of manpads or AA, you don't need armor, or fly low any more.